I feel like either of these options allows us to stray from the concept more than would have been ideal. That said they are both very useful for CAP10 to counter so I had a hard time deciding which way to go. There are pros and cons either way. In the end I feel like Magic Guard is a much better ability and so has more pros as well as cons. I still went with it simply because it encourages more versatility, especially with the item choice, as toxic or life orb are perfectly viable and the ability is still useful even if you choose a different item. I am pretty certain that this will allow CAP10 to function outside of its concept, which is a shame, but I don't see avoiding it either way and i feel like poison heal will result in most CAP10's looking the same. Pick your poison.
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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5d - Secondary Ability Poll 2
- Thread starter beej
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The ability alone does not give CAP10 the stat boosts, the item does. That's like saying Pikachu automatically gets x2 in both offensive stats because it's Pikachu, regardless of items.
You're keep talking about CAP10 being broken but providing absolutely terrible arguing points. You're saying something with pathetic offenses and fantastic defenses will be a sweeper simply because it has Speed and takes no recoil for LO. However you completely ignore it's ability to switch into EH's for no damage to continue countering a threat that switches in and out, ignore SS damage immunity so it can take Hippowdon and Tyranitar easier, and the advantages of taking no LO damage defensively. Neither ability is broken, but most people are choosing the inferior ability simply out of fear.
You also seem to be whining a bit. The things I have seen as a necessity and have vouched for rarely made it but I never say 'we've destroyed the concept' because we haven't. Just deal with the fact you won't always get your way and try and contribute as much as you can.
That's pretty much my point--CAP10 won't just be taking 9-10 attacks straight on, without being attacked back--it will be attacked during that period, even if it does keep switching in and out. Due to that, the Life Orb recoil not being there doesn't seem too significant, as CAP10 isn't going to be surviving that much longer due to the fact that, as you said, it will be attacked in that period. As a result, it might get off one, maybe two more attacks off at most, but since it will be getting attacked regardless, the fact that Life Orb recoil isn't there will most times not really be significant, as the same EQ or whatever that killed it without Magic Guard would still most likely kill it. Magic Guard may help a bit, but due to the fact that it will be attacked and not actually get 9-10 attacks in either way, it doesn't seem too significant to me. In any case though, it won't make it be a significant boost to its sweeping ability, so, IMO, while it of course boosts its sweeping ability, it's not such a significant boost to its sweeping ability compared to what it could do otherwise that we should really be concerned about it.
And of course, that was only part of my point. Again, the alternative is Poison Heal, an ability that focuses on increased healing. If we can handle that, we can handle a Life Orb without recoil, IMO.
And even with Magic Guard, Life Orb isn't exactly a free boost, as was one of my other points. Magic Guard doesn't let it get any stronger (stat-wise) than it could otherwise--Life Orb is still an option either way. It also still has to give up its item slot to Life Orb; it can't use both Leftovers and Life Orb at the same time or anything. But in any case, whether that's true or not, that just ends of going back to just how significant the recoil not being there will be. And IMO, it won't be that much of a difference. But, this is just theorymon, really, regardless. The only way that can actually answer this sort of question is to try it and see what happens, so I won't press this any further than that.
Edit: And I forgot to mention this: it's not like Magic Guard doesn't have it's own drawbacks, as well. Unlike Poison Heal, you can still paralyze CAP10 with Magic Guard, which it really doesn't appreciate. You can also burn it, which still hurts its attack, and Sleep it. With Poison Heal, unless you do that the first turn its out, you won't be able to. So even if Magic Guard does tempt CAP10 to be more of a sweeper, in addition to still having to deal with being attacked in return as it tries to sweep, it would also still have to deal with Burn and Paralysis, neither of which it would like. So again, I'm not terribly worried about Magic Guard in this respect, but this is really something that can only be resolved by actually seeing it in action and observing what happens, IMO.
I voted for Poison Heal.
My main point against Magic Guard is that it promotes making an attempt at sweeping and being more offensive than defensive. Now, before someone goes "But those calculations are not that impressive!", let me say that the calculations are the same regardless of which ability we select. The difference is that these calculations, which are just a bit short of matching Starmie's (But now with STAB Thunderbolt), come at no cost to CAP10 should Magic Guard be selected. It will be excellent as a bulky sweeper if it can attack enemies without fear of entry hazards, passive damage in the form of weather, poison damage, and no worries about Life Orb recoil. Those are the things that will put CAP10 over the edge, and they all originate in Magic Guard.
Poison Heal has its own share of questionable interactions, but at least doesn't diminish CAP10's likelihood of accomplishing its intended concept. Toxic stalling is largely ineffective in OU because of the sheer number of Pokemon that "wall" it, and without Life Orb boosts (in exchange for Toxic Orb healing, that is), it will be largely ineffective as a sweeper and fail to make even the necessary 2HKOs against numerous threats. (Such as on Celebi with a max investment Ice Beam) Poison Heal, much like Trace, lets CAP10 check certain threats that it otherwise wouldn't be able to, allowing it to be a contributing member of a team without necessarily countering anything new all at once. Finally, I feel that Poison Heal is largely in the same caliber as Trace in that both will share equal use on CAP10 due to the different threats they help address and ways they support CAP10 against different Pokemon. Magic Guard, I feel, is a far more reliably powerful ability than Trace - so much so, in fact, that it will be used significantly more often.
For all of these reasons, I feel that Poison Heal is the clear better choice for CAP10.
My main point against Magic Guard is that it promotes making an attempt at sweeping and being more offensive than defensive. Now, before someone goes "But those calculations are not that impressive!", let me say that the calculations are the same regardless of which ability we select. The difference is that these calculations, which are just a bit short of matching Starmie's (But now with STAB Thunderbolt), come at no cost to CAP10 should Magic Guard be selected. It will be excellent as a bulky sweeper if it can attack enemies without fear of entry hazards, passive damage in the form of weather, poison damage, and no worries about Life Orb recoil. Those are the things that will put CAP10 over the edge, and they all originate in Magic Guard.
Poison Heal has its own share of questionable interactions, but at least doesn't diminish CAP10's likelihood of accomplishing its intended concept. Toxic stalling is largely ineffective in OU because of the sheer number of Pokemon that "wall" it, and without Life Orb boosts (in exchange for Toxic Orb healing, that is), it will be largely ineffective as a sweeper and fail to make even the necessary 2HKOs against numerous threats. (Such as on Celebi with a max investment Ice Beam) Poison Heal, much like Trace, lets CAP10 check certain threats that it otherwise wouldn't be able to, allowing it to be a contributing member of a team without necessarily countering anything new all at once. Finally, I feel that Poison Heal is largely in the same caliber as Trace in that both will share equal use on CAP10 due to the different threats they help address and ways they support CAP10 against different Pokemon. Magic Guard, I feel, is a far more reliably powerful ability than Trace - so much so, in fact, that it will be used significantly more often.
For all of these reasons, I feel that Poison Heal is the clear better choice for CAP10.
I really don't understand why people believe that Poison Heal will make CAP10 much more durable than Magic Guard; if anything the reverse is true. For Poison Heal to be useful, it can't use Leftovers, it really needs to use Toxic Orb. On the other hand, CAP10 with Magic Guard would be able to use Leftovers. Since Magic Guard would make CAP10 immune to Sandstorm and Hail, each will heal the same in weather, and Magic Guard has the added benefit of being immune to entry hazards, actually making it more durable. Judge for yourself how common auto-Sand/Hail is in OU (~30% chance that any given team has an auto-weather Pokemon), but in a game between two top players, I would count on the chance of at least one having Tyranitar being extremely high. In other words, I believe that if the primary concern with Poison Heal is durability being too great, this should really also eliminate Magic Guard since the two are comparable and if anything, Magic Guards makes CAP10 even more durable.
Reposting, as I still feel these are are of a concern.
I feel poison heal takes far to much out of the equation when dealing with cap10. The most reliable answer to walls is toxic. Now we are removing that. As well as removing sleep, freeze, para, burn. This almost guarantees the use of toxic orb. This also almost always guarantees the use of this ability over trace.
Removing burn also removes the attack drop. This may become more relevant as move pool is worked on.
!05 base speed is quite fast. Looking at other walls/defensive pokes
Blissy, 55
skamory 70
rotom-f 86
spirittomb 35
dusknoir 45
Paralysis may not hamper these more traditional defensive pokes. However it is a real threat to cap10 with 105 speed.
Of the options listed I would pick a magic guard. It gives the same net healing as poison heal+sandstorm while still leaving cap10 vulnerable to the secondary effects of the other major status.
I would have loved to see unaware make the list of options. Would help immensely in countering stat upers. Able to come in on a mence or gara after a dragon dance. As well as helping against swords danced anything.
Also looking at aragon's shrimp and thinking of a magic shrimp is funny.
I feel poison heal takes far to much out of the equation when dealing with cap10. The most reliable answer to walls is toxic. Now we are removing that. As well as removing sleep, freeze, para, burn. This almost guarantees the use of toxic orb. This also almost always guarantees the use of this ability over trace.
Removing burn also removes the attack drop. This may become more relevant as move pool is worked on.
!05 base speed is quite fast. Looking at other walls/defensive pokes
Blissy, 55
skamory 70
rotom-f 86
spirittomb 35
dusknoir 45
Paralysis may not hamper these more traditional defensive pokes. However it is a real threat to cap10 with 105 speed.
Of the options listed I would pick a magic guard. It gives the same net healing as poison heal+sandstorm while still leaving cap10 vulnerable to the secondary effects of the other major status.
I would have loved to see unaware make the list of options. Would help immensely in countering stat upers. Able to come in on a mence or gara after a dragon dance. As well as helping against swords danced anything.
Also looking at aragon's shrimp and thinking of a magic shrimp is funny.
Thank you, that's what I have been saying all along. People keep talking about how Magic Guard will allow CAP 10 to keep switching in to counter Pokemon and not take damage from entry hazards, but that is the opposite of what this CAP is supposed to do! Don't get me wrong, I know it's a wall, but it is only supposed to counter 1 or 2 threats with a given set. Giving it Magic Guard will increase its durability to the point where it will be bulky enough to wall Pokemon it was not tailored to counter.
Some people have to realize Poison Heal doesn't make Breloom OU. Being a SubSeeder with Poison Heal and having STAB base 150 Focus Punch off 130 attack which meshes perfectly with Sub Seeding makes him OU.
The fact that Clefable can actual run mixed offense sets with 75/87/60 sweeping stats thanks to Life Orb's boost speaks volumes to how good Magic Guard is. Think about it, we would be giving a Pokemon that is way bulkier, has superior offensive and defensive typing and has very good speed the opportunity to have free Life Orb and Status Immunity.
Case and point, Lickilicky is NU and Clefable is UU. Lickilicky is better than Clefable in all areas expect Special Attack (close) and speed. He even has an equally, if not better, movepool. Magic Guard makes Clefable go from useless to viable, and we and we want to give that ability to something like Lanturn, who is UU by itself, but stronger?
Poison Heal is my choice, it's not even close.
The fact that Clefable can actual run mixed offense sets with 75/87/60 sweeping stats thanks to Life Orb's boost speaks volumes to how good Magic Guard is. Think about it, we would be giving a Pokemon that is way bulkier, has superior offensive and defensive typing and has very good speed the opportunity to have free Life Orb and Status Immunity.
Case and point, Lickilicky is NU and Clefable is UU. Lickilicky is better than Clefable in all areas expect Special Attack (close) and speed. He even has an equally, if not better, movepool. Magic Guard makes Clefable go from useless to viable, and we and we want to give that ability to something like Lanturn, who is UU by itself, but stronger?
Poison Heal is my choice, it's not even close.
I voted Poison Heal. Guys, I realize Magic Guard is really cool, but consider how obscenely strong it is first.
Poison Heal grants the following bonuses:
1) 12.5% healing per turn
2) Immune to all status after Poison activates.
3) Can run another item and take advantage of Toxic or TSpikes. Otherwise, limited to the use to Toxic Orb.
THAT'S IT!
Magic Guard grants the following bonuses:
1) Immune to weather damage.
2) Immune to entry hazard damage
3) Immune to toxic/burn damage. Likewise can run another item and take advantage of Toxic of TSpikes to avoid all status.
4) Immune to recoil of all forms (from Life Orb or recoil moves)
5) Immune to leech seed.
6) Immune to Full Paralyzation (though speed drop still happens)
7) Immune to Nightmare/Bad Dreams.
Ignore even the free 1.3x multiplier to both attacking stats from Life Orb. Even defensively, this is a WAY bigger list with far more advantages than Poison Heal can muster.
Poison Heal grants the following bonuses:
1) 12.5% healing per turn
2) Immune to all status after Poison activates.
3) Can run another item and take advantage of Toxic or TSpikes. Otherwise, limited to the use to Toxic Orb.
THAT'S IT!
Magic Guard grants the following bonuses:
1) Immune to weather damage.
2) Immune to entry hazard damage
3) Immune to toxic/burn damage. Likewise can run another item and take advantage of Toxic of TSpikes to avoid all status.
4) Immune to recoil of all forms (from Life Orb or recoil moves)
5) Immune to leech seed.
6) Immune to Full Paralyzation (though speed drop still happens)
7) Immune to Nightmare/Bad Dreams.
Ignore even the free 1.3x multiplier to both attacking stats from Life Orb. Even defensively, this is a WAY bigger list with far more advantages than Poison Heal can muster.
Honestly.
When ever are you going to need Poison Heal To counter something?
Tell me one pokemon you can't counter through EV and items with trace that you can counter with poison heal. Go ahead.
Don't say status, because it can't take status on the switch. All Poison Heal does is increase its durability.
I supose the same could be said about Magic Guard, but it doesn't increase its durability itself. It only stops the opponents attempts to lower it's durability. Sure it basicly have the same effect, as Hazards are on allmost every team. But in the event of them not using SR and the likes, Magic Guard does nothing.
Life Orb is pathetic. I'd consider using it only for 1 thing, and that is so i wouldn't have to invest as much to net some 2HKOs / OHKOs to give it more defence. No way it would turn into a sweeper.
I don't like magic guard that much but next to poison heal...
When ever are you going to need Poison Heal To counter something?
Tell me one pokemon you can't counter through EV and items with trace that you can counter with poison heal. Go ahead.
Don't say status, because it can't take status on the switch. All Poison Heal does is increase its durability.
I supose the same could be said about Magic Guard, but it doesn't increase its durability itself. It only stops the opponents attempts to lower it's durability. Sure it basicly have the same effect, as Hazards are on allmost every team. But in the event of them not using SR and the likes, Magic Guard does nothing.
Life Orb is pathetic. I'd consider using it only for 1 thing, and that is so i wouldn't have to invest as much to net some 2HKOs / OHKOs to give it more defence. No way it would turn into a sweeper.
I don't like magic guard that much but next to poison heal...
Poison Heal grants the following bonuses:
1) 12.5% healing per turn
2) Immune to all status after Poison activates.
3) Can run another item and take advantage of Toxic or TSpikes. Otherwise, limited to the use to Toxic Orb.
THAT'S IT!
Magic Guard grants the following bonuses:
1) Immune to weather damage.
2) Immune to entry hazard damage
3) Immune to damage from status
4) Immune to recoil damage
Honestly, I thought your list was a bit unfair. You seperated all the different status effects in the Magic Guard list.
Besides, how often do you see nightmare? Bad dreams is Uber exclusive. And really, how well/often do you think running another item instead of toxic orb work/occur?
Okay so in terms of Magic Guard's sweeping capabilities, keep in mind these calcs:
Max Atk, neutral nature CAP 10 LO Volt Tackle vs. RestTalk Machamp: 59.6% - 70.3%
Max Atk, Adamant, Lucario non-LO Close Combat vs. Rest Talk Machamp: 60.2% - 71.1%
Max Atk, Jolly Heracross non-LO Close Combat vs. RestTalk Machamp: 59.6% - 70.6%
So imagine CAP 10, if (a big if) it gets the kind of high BP STAB moves of Adamant Lucario or Jolly Heracross, doing roughly the same damage with LO as they would do without a LO.
Max SpA, neutral nature CAP 10 LO Surf vs. RestTalk Machamp: 44.8% - 53.1%
Max SpA, Timid Starmie non-LO Surf vs. RestTalk Machamp: 38.5% - 45.6%
Max SpA, Timid Starmie LO Surf vs. RestTalk Machamp: 50.3% - 59.4%
From the special side, LO CAP 10 is somewhat stronger and bulkier than non-LO Starmie, but is slower at the same time, so there's a tradeoff there. LO Starmie is still faster and stronger than CAP 10, giving CAP an advantage only via STAB Thunderbolt, which in most cases is inferior to Surf. The comparison is apt, but in no way does Magic Guard make CAP 10 a "better Starmie." Imagine Modest Latias or Timid Offensive Zapdos (both non-LO) in terms of offensive prowess for LO SpA CAP 10.
I voted for Magic Guard for reasons other than "LO SWEEPER MAX PWNAGE LOL." Longevity is key for this concept, and, while both options increase longevity in unique ways and I would be happy with either ability winning, I think Magic Guard does it better.
Max Atk, neutral nature CAP 10 LO Volt Tackle vs. RestTalk Machamp: 59.6% - 70.3%
Max Atk, Adamant, Lucario non-LO Close Combat vs. Rest Talk Machamp: 60.2% - 71.1%
Max Atk, Jolly Heracross non-LO Close Combat vs. RestTalk Machamp: 59.6% - 70.6%
So imagine CAP 10, if (a big if) it gets the kind of high BP STAB moves of Adamant Lucario or Jolly Heracross, doing roughly the same damage with LO as they would do without a LO.
Max SpA, neutral nature CAP 10 LO Surf vs. RestTalk Machamp: 44.8% - 53.1%
Max SpA, Timid Starmie non-LO Surf vs. RestTalk Machamp: 38.5% - 45.6%
Max SpA, Timid Starmie LO Surf vs. RestTalk Machamp: 50.3% - 59.4%
From the special side, LO CAP 10 is somewhat stronger and bulkier than non-LO Starmie, but is slower at the same time, so there's a tradeoff there. LO Starmie is still faster and stronger than CAP 10, giving CAP an advantage only via STAB Thunderbolt, which in most cases is inferior to Surf. The comparison is apt, but in no way does Magic Guard make CAP 10 a "better Starmie." Imagine Modest Latias or Timid Offensive Zapdos (both non-LO) in terms of offensive prowess for LO SpA CAP 10.
I voted for Magic Guard for reasons other than "LO SWEEPER MAX PWNAGE LOL." Longevity is key for this concept, and, while both options increase longevity in unique ways and I would be happy with either ability winning, I think Magic Guard does it better.
I separated the list for a reason. Leech seed, for one, is not a status infliction, and the way it operates is way different. Immunity to full paralysis is a huge thing, meaning CAP10 will never get incapacitated for a turn. That's different from status damage. And okay, you can ignore Nightmare/Bad Dreams. Fair enough.
I, in general, hate Stall, and having a strong (er Pokemon than Clefable :P) have Magic Guard would be interesting. Of course to truly handle stall it would need a +Spatk move + decent special movepool, but...well, that's another topic.
I support Magic Guard.
I've noticed people have a tendency to bandwagon choices based on personal issues, and not the Pokemon / concept / point itself. I sincerely hope that isn't the case here.
If the point of this Pokemon is truly
"This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time."
then this Poll shouldn't even be close. Yes, Magic Guard is VERY good. The magnitude of utility (unless ABSOLUTELY BROKEN) shouldn't really be discussed. What should be discussed is which ability allows for the best countering of general threats.
Poison Heal gives durability. "More" would be very arguable. Actually, extremely arguable. Water / Electric typing makes this 100% susceptible to Spikes, making this less effective a "general counter" (because general counters will be switching in often) against both Entry Hazard Offense and Stall teams. If we truly want a Pokemon that can act as a "general counter," then we want to maximize its ability to switch in.
Poison Heal adds to its in battle longevity, but more as a "Staller" than as a direct counter. To maximize the ability the Pokemon would probably have to run Protect or Substitute, both of which add to the "stalling" component, not the general countering component. We'd want to allow this as general a moveset to reach its concept more easily.
Magic Guard absolutely maximizes this ability to switch in. It is immune to entry hazards, immune to damaging effects for status, and immune to full paralyzation (programmed incorrectly I believe on Shoddy right now). All of this maximizes general ability to counter threats MUCH more than 2nd turn additional durability that Poison Heal provides.
I'd like to emphasize how "magnitude of utility" should REALLY not be discussed, unless it is ABSOLUTELY broken (giving a base 100 attack Pokemon with 115 base speed and fighting / dragon typing Huge Power for example).
The point of this is to determine which ability maximizes this Pokemon's ability to counter general threats. A vital part of countering is switching in, not being crippled by random Toxics on offensive Pokemon, and not being Paralyzed when you NEED to hit with an attack.
Yes, durability is part of the equation. This Pokemon's stat spread however allows to reach very close to the durability of min base 100 Pokemon (celebi / jirachi) at minimum hp / defense stats, which is optimal for maxing Speed (if it really want to counter it needs to outspeed the threats) and maxing an attack to do the most damage. Since it will be taking 40%+ most likely on the switch, the additional recovery is almost irrelevant.
I'd rather I have the ability to switch in as much as possible over the ability to get recovery that I most likely will not need.
I support Magic Guard.
I've noticed people have a tendency to bandwagon choices based on personal issues, and not the Pokemon / concept / point itself. I sincerely hope that isn't the case here.
If the point of this Pokemon is truly
"This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time."
then this Poll shouldn't even be close. Yes, Magic Guard is VERY good. The magnitude of utility (unless ABSOLUTELY BROKEN) shouldn't really be discussed. What should be discussed is which ability allows for the best countering of general threats.
Poison Heal gives durability. "More" would be very arguable. Actually, extremely arguable. Water / Electric typing makes this 100% susceptible to Spikes, making this less effective a "general counter" (because general counters will be switching in often) against both Entry Hazard Offense and Stall teams. If we truly want a Pokemon that can act as a "general counter," then we want to maximize its ability to switch in.
Poison Heal adds to its in battle longevity, but more as a "Staller" than as a direct counter. To maximize the ability the Pokemon would probably have to run Protect or Substitute, both of which add to the "stalling" component, not the general countering component. We'd want to allow this as general a moveset to reach its concept more easily.
Magic Guard absolutely maximizes this ability to switch in. It is immune to entry hazards, immune to damaging effects for status, and immune to full paralyzation (programmed incorrectly I believe on Shoddy right now). All of this maximizes general ability to counter threats MUCH more than 2nd turn additional durability that Poison Heal provides.
I'd like to emphasize how "magnitude of utility" should REALLY not be discussed, unless it is ABSOLUTELY broken (giving a base 100 attack Pokemon with 115 base speed and fighting / dragon typing Huge Power for example).
The point of this is to determine which ability maximizes this Pokemon's ability to counter general threats. A vital part of countering is switching in, not being crippled by random Toxics on offensive Pokemon, and not being Paralyzed when you NEED to hit with an attack.
Yes, durability is part of the equation. This Pokemon's stat spread however allows to reach very close to the durability of min base 100 Pokemon (celebi / jirachi) at minimum hp / defense stats, which is optimal for maxing Speed (if it really want to counter it needs to outspeed the threats) and maxing an attack to do the most damage. Since it will be taking 40%+ most likely on the switch, the additional recovery is almost irrelevant.
I'd rather I have the ability to switch in as much as possible over the ability to get recovery that I most likely will not need.
First off, really close poll. :P
I voted for Magic Guard because, as the definition of CAP 10 goes, this thing is customizable to counter a few threats. This means that it has to live long enough to counter the threats. Magic Guard will prevent the entry hazard damage, weather damage, and other damage like Leech Seed, but doesn't prevent other adverse status effects, so it won't become broken. Plus, if this thing has Poison Heal, who's going to use Trace over it? Poison Heal offers awesome recovery. It only guarantees every CAP 10 is going to hold a Toxic Orb.
I voted for Magic Guard because, as the definition of CAP 10 goes, this thing is customizable to counter a few threats. This means that it has to live long enough to counter the threats. Magic Guard will prevent the entry hazard damage, weather damage, and other damage like Leech Seed, but doesn't prevent other adverse status effects, so it won't become broken. Plus, if this thing has Poison Heal, who's going to use Trace over it? Poison Heal offers awesome recovery. It only guarantees every CAP 10 is going to hold a Toxic Orb.
I voted for magic guard because it prevents entry hazard damage. This cap needs to be able to stick around for a while. When around 37% of your health is deducted and you take a neutral attack (such as infernape's close combat) this cap may have trouble taking another hit. Magic guard ensures you take down a threat to your team with a lot less trouble. I'm afraid without magic guard this thing won't be able to stick around long enough to counter attack. Don't forget you'll probably have to be persistent. They might switch out and as such you may have to switch to avoid getting ko'ed.
I have voted for Poison Heal for reasons I have mentioned previously.
Also;
As Reachzero said, with either one of the two abilities they will both receive the same amount of damage from a Sandstorm after the health replenish, which is the most common damage factor outside of attacks and status allignments. We do not want this pokemon to become some sort of mega wall with superior stats and a superior ability. Clefable has Magic Guard because it has poor stats and an average movepool, but this pokemon will need to have a wide movepool to deal with many pokemon as it is a Utility Counter, not a Mega Wall. It is only meant to deal with one pokemon at the very least and perhaps a few more with similar attributes, but not an entire team. If it had Magic Guard, how on Earth would anything be able to KO it? Only a STAB Earthquake from a Choice Band or a STAB Leafstorm from a Choice Specs would be able to hit hard through it, and even then it will be able to switch to a pokemon that could eliminate its threats.
In summary, we do not want an all out wall that walls everything in the game at once, we want a pokemon that can wall and very effectively KO a chosen pokemon or a few pokemon.
Also;
As Reachzero said, with either one of the two abilities they will both receive the same amount of damage from a Sandstorm after the health replenish, which is the most common damage factor outside of attacks and status allignments. We do not want this pokemon to become some sort of mega wall with superior stats and a superior ability. Clefable has Magic Guard because it has poor stats and an average movepool, but this pokemon will need to have a wide movepool to deal with many pokemon as it is a Utility Counter, not a Mega Wall. It is only meant to deal with one pokemon at the very least and perhaps a few more with similar attributes, but not an entire team. If it had Magic Guard, how on Earth would anything be able to KO it? Only a STAB Earthquake from a Choice Band or a STAB Leafstorm from a Choice Specs would be able to hit hard through it, and even then it will be able to switch to a pokemon that could eliminate its threats.
In summary, we do not want an all out wall that walls everything in the game at once, we want a pokemon that can wall and very effectively KO a chosen pokemon or a few pokemon.
I'm having a hard time understanding why Magic Guard is still in this. Perhaps I am missing something.
Magic Guard will almost certainly be used 99% of the time over Trace. It's better than Poison Heal in every way except that Poison Heal can heal a bit more than Lefties and totally prevents status instead of just the damage.
In fact, I'd say Magic Guard is so good, it'd break CAP10 easily. Poison Heal, while also a very powerful ability, is much more fitting in the sense of balance.
Seriously, Magic Guard is like a top 3 ability in the game. With it, how is CAP10 going to die?
Magic Guard will almost certainly be used 99% of the time over Trace. It's better than Poison Heal in every way except that Poison Heal can heal a bit more than Lefties and totally prevents status instead of just the damage.
In fact, I'd say Magic Guard is so good, it'd break CAP10 easily. Poison Heal, while also a very powerful ability, is much more fitting in the sense of balance.
Seriously, Magic Guard is like a top 3 ability in the game. With it, how is CAP10 going to die?
Who is going to use Trace over Magic Guard? Trace is a cool ability, and can be useful half the time (like tracing Intimidate off of Mence) but is useless the other half of the time (like tracing Sand Stream off of TTar). Magic Guard on the other had, gives the Pokemon a consistent degree of durability that, I reiterate, will allow it to go against the concept by countering more than one or two Pokemon with one moveset/EV spread.
Even though it's probably too late for me to convince a lot of people to vote for Poison Heal, I honestly can't believe Magic Guard is going to be our secondary ability.
I think people are too damn oblivious to the power Magic Guard holds. Magic Guard is one of the best abilities in the entire game, and thankfully, it's stuck on a Pokemon in the UU environment. The benefits Magic Guard has is beyond amazing. Immunity to entry hazards, which this CAP happens to be vulnerable to every single one, is just absolutely ridiculous. Entry hazards are a primary way of someone trying to beat down a wall, and with this very defensive Pokemon being immune to them, I honestly can't see how that is remotely unbroken.
Yeah you can argue that Poison Heal gives this CAP 12% healing which is "so much", but if you actually think about, Magic Guard and Poison Heal, on average, will probably heal about the same HP per turn. How is that even possible? Poison Heal grants 12% recovery, right? With the abundance of sandstorm in the OU metagame, and the lack of sandstorm immunity for this CAP, we will be healing 6% each turn. Shockingly, that's the exact same recovery as Leftovers. You literally need to use Leftovers on Magic Guard CAP to actually heal your HP each turn. Since Magic Guard has an immunity to weather damage, it is still healed by 6% from Leftovers. Magic Guard and Poison Heal are going to score the same HP recovery each turn in most scenarios.
Do any of you realize how easy it is for this CAP to use an offensive set with Magic Guard? It takes no recoil damage from Life Orb, which is pretty amazing. Imagine it just spamming boosted Hydro Pumps with little to no drawbacks. Don't give me "it's base Special Attack is too low", because even though that may be a legitimate statement, it is by no means true. Another thing: since Magic Guard makes this CAP immune to entry hazards, how can CAP 10 possibly be worn down by residual damage when most offensive sweepers are affected by? Oh it is also immune to Toxic and Will-O-Wisp (I don't care if Will-O-Wisp still cuts Attack, CAP 10 is not using it), how freakin' amazing is that?
I got bored so I decided to fiddle around with potential offensive Life Orb sets, and I realized that this CAP can become an extremely dangerous Rain Dance sweeper. With a Timid nature and a Life Orb + Rain-boosted Hydro Pump, this CAP can OHKO a lot things, a bunch more with a few entry hazards. Allow me to show you some Hydro Pump calculations:
252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 84.07% - 99.18%
248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 98.83% - 116.62%
252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 83.85% - 98.70%
252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 75.74% - 89.36%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 82.70% - 97.65%
Anyway, you get the idea. One could easily argue that you can accomplish this even if Poison Heal wins; however, think about it. With Poison Heal, you pretty much need to use Toxic Orb if you want to take advantage of it, meaning you are unable to utilize Life Orb. If you do decide to use Life Orb, have fun predicting a Toxic to switch into who isn't coming from something named Blissey. Also, Poison Heal does not give this CAP immunity to entry hazards, which Magic Guard does. So basically, it is 10x more easier for CAP 10 to sweep via Magic Guard than Poison Heal.
This is a mistake. Stop voting for Magic Guard. This CAP is going to become way too dangerous. >_>
I think people are too damn oblivious to the power Magic Guard holds. Magic Guard is one of the best abilities in the entire game, and thankfully, it's stuck on a Pokemon in the UU environment. The benefits Magic Guard has is beyond amazing. Immunity to entry hazards, which this CAP happens to be vulnerable to every single one, is just absolutely ridiculous. Entry hazards are a primary way of someone trying to beat down a wall, and with this very defensive Pokemon being immune to them, I honestly can't see how that is remotely unbroken.
Yeah you can argue that Poison Heal gives this CAP 12% healing which is "so much", but if you actually think about, Magic Guard and Poison Heal, on average, will probably heal about the same HP per turn. How is that even possible? Poison Heal grants 12% recovery, right? With the abundance of sandstorm in the OU metagame, and the lack of sandstorm immunity for this CAP, we will be healing 6% each turn. Shockingly, that's the exact same recovery as Leftovers. You literally need to use Leftovers on Magic Guard CAP to actually heal your HP each turn. Since Magic Guard has an immunity to weather damage, it is still healed by 6% from Leftovers. Magic Guard and Poison Heal are going to score the same HP recovery each turn in most scenarios.
Do any of you realize how easy it is for this CAP to use an offensive set with Magic Guard? It takes no recoil damage from Life Orb, which is pretty amazing. Imagine it just spamming boosted Hydro Pumps with little to no drawbacks. Don't give me "it's base Special Attack is too low", because even though that may be a legitimate statement, it is by no means true. Another thing: since Magic Guard makes this CAP immune to entry hazards, how can CAP 10 possibly be worn down by residual damage when most offensive sweepers are affected by? Oh it is also immune to Toxic and Will-O-Wisp (I don't care if Will-O-Wisp still cuts Attack, CAP 10 is not using it), how freakin' amazing is that?
I got bored so I decided to fiddle around with potential offensive Life Orb sets, and I realized that this CAP can become an extremely dangerous Rain Dance sweeper. With a Timid nature and a Life Orb + Rain-boosted Hydro Pump, this CAP can OHKO a lot things, a bunch more with a few entry hazards. Allow me to show you some Hydro Pump calculations:
252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 84.07% - 99.18%
248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 98.83% - 116.62%
252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 83.85% - 98.70%
252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 75.74% - 89.36%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 82.70% - 97.65%
Anyway, you get the idea. One could easily argue that you can accomplish this even if Poison Heal wins; however, think about it. With Poison Heal, you pretty much need to use Toxic Orb if you want to take advantage of it, meaning you are unable to utilize Life Orb. If you do decide to use Life Orb, have fun predicting a Toxic to switch into who isn't coming from something named Blissey. Also, Poison Heal does not give this CAP immunity to entry hazards, which Magic Guard does. So basically, it is 10x more easier for CAP 10 to sweep via Magic Guard than Poison Heal.
This is a mistake. Stop voting for Magic Guard. This CAP is going to become way too dangerous. >_>
There is a staggering amount of individuals who approach the CAP10 threads and others of that related topic and vote in polls where they no little about and do not do much research on or look at in any thorough description. This is a serious thread, please if you do think that what you are posting is justified then post a substancial written response as to why you think this is so and not just vote for what you think is best. Consider the facts, and what might happen.
Poison Heal is a great ability, it allow immunity to poison (and status given said pokemon is holding a toxic orb) and heals 1/8 (I think...) HP every turn. It's easily what keeps Breloom in OU.
That being said i don't think it's broad enough for CAP10. Magic Guard grants poison damage immunity as well as the same protection from Spikes, Stealth Rock, Hail, Sand Storm. Really it's amazing just how much Magic Guard can do to help CAP10 switch it. not taking that 16% from Stealth Rock can mean alot when your goal is to counter.
That being said i don't think it's broad enough for CAP10. Magic Guard grants poison damage immunity as well as the same protection from Spikes, Stealth Rock, Hail, Sand Storm. Really it's amazing just how much Magic Guard can do to help CAP10 switch it. not taking that 16% from Stealth Rock can mean alot when your goal is to counter.
Thank you Fuzznip for expanding on my points. I don't know the policy for polls but can Beej still overturn the result?
Think about, CAP10 will be immune to EVERYTHING but direct damage. With it's great bulk and two weaknesses, only one of which is really significant, CAP10 becomes a fantastic wall. But we can also run Life Orb sets and now we have a solid, bulky offensive sweeper (Base 105 speed is more than good enough).
Essentially, if we give Magic Guard, any recovery move or Rest will break CAP10 as a wall and any stat boosting move or Volt Tackle will break CAP10 as a sweeper.
Magic Guard makes a low end NU Pokemon UU, what do you think it will do to a good OU Pokemon?
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