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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5d - Secondary Ability Poll 2
- Thread starter beej
- Start date
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I compleatly agree, Giving it Volt Tackle make no sense realy. I mean, its a pika exclusive.
STAB thunderbolts, do need to give it Thunderbolt? Discharge would be an alternative to it. We don't even have to give it a single attacking move. allthough thats silly and won't happen. The thing is, it's up to us what moves it gets.
This isn't really the place to discuss this, but CAP has never worked this way. "Magic Guard is a Clefable exclusive." "Poison Heal is a Breloom exclusive." For that matter, "Unaware is a Bibarel exclusive."
Ehh, okey, I supose my real argument is. Why give it volt tackle thats an increadibly powerfull physical Electric Attack? And who in it's right mind would sugest it if Magic Guard becomes the ability?
I'm voting Magic Guard because Poison Heal diverts heavily from the mission statement due to its incredible offensive and defensive potential, making CAP a threat to prepare for rather than the utility counter it was intended to be. Magic Guard does nothing to remedy its low offenses and modest defenses, and furthermore, does not allow it to abuse Substitute, which could be the defining factor making CAP more of an offensive Pokemon than a defensive one.
This was a closer poll than I expected.
I honestly don't like either ability all too much, but I have been swayed to support Magic Guard (sorry Breloom). And the reasoning behind it is simple, it fulfills the concept, despite what all the naysayers suggest, let me explain.
Magic Guard allows further customization of CAP10, and the easiest example is whether to counter your target either offensively or defensively by use of either Life Orb or Leftovers. Lots of arguments in this thread have hinted at the 'awesome' offensive potential of LO + Magic Guard, but it takes a serious toll on CAP10's ability to be defensive w/o Leftovers recovery and defensive EVs (noting the calculations throughout the thread). Yes, it still will be formidably bulky thanks to its HP, but aren't Metagross and Gyarados extremely bulky as well, while being much more powerful? In order to be the 'bulky' sweepers they are though comes at the cost of missing out on those 2HKOs or 1HKOs that they need due to EV allocation, and the same applies for CAP10. Whether or not it's worth it is up to the user (and looking at its offensive stats, I'm not sure I'm a fan).
There is a lot of overestimation on this thing's offensive prowess, and one of the main reasons for this is not taking into account the multiple ways CAP10 can be brought down. Since when have players (besides extremely heavy stall) relied exclusively on SR, spikes, poison to kill off foes? This thing is certainly beatable when you think about how many weaknesses it has depending on which route it chooses to counter pokemon. Here's a simple list of obstacles in the way of becoming 'broken' from both Routes. Note that this is by no means an exhaustive list.
Cons against taking Offensive Route: (Life orb + Magic Guard)
-Paralyze weak
-Burn weak (only if using physical attacks)
-Various EQs/Earth Power (due to weakened defenses)
*-Grass knot
Cons against taking Defensive Route: (Leftovers + Magic Guard)
-Much less offensive prowess
-Paralyze weak (again, but to a lessened extent)
-Very strong EQs (hard to take, regardless)
Magic Guard allows for a new spin in the customization of this pokemon in order to counter new threats and allows more depths to be explored. It is certainly possible that many players will simply use the offensive route, but there are multiple ways to use CAP10 by what I see: 2 excellent abilities, multiple items able to be employed successfully, stabs to work with, moveset of course.
In the end, I try to think most about the concept. Magic Guard heightens the amount of customization we can use effectively, and this is why it is a much better choice than Poison Heal.
I honestly don't like either ability all too much, but I have been swayed to support Magic Guard (sorry Breloom). And the reasoning behind it is simple, it fulfills the concept, despite what all the naysayers suggest, let me explain.
Magic Guard allows further customization of CAP10, and the easiest example is whether to counter your target either offensively or defensively by use of either Life Orb or Leftovers. Lots of arguments in this thread have hinted at the 'awesome' offensive potential of LO + Magic Guard, but it takes a serious toll on CAP10's ability to be defensive w/o Leftovers recovery and defensive EVs (noting the calculations throughout the thread). Yes, it still will be formidably bulky thanks to its HP, but aren't Metagross and Gyarados extremely bulky as well, while being much more powerful? In order to be the 'bulky' sweepers they are though comes at the cost of missing out on those 2HKOs or 1HKOs that they need due to EV allocation, and the same applies for CAP10. Whether or not it's worth it is up to the user (and looking at its offensive stats, I'm not sure I'm a fan).
There is a lot of overestimation on this thing's offensive prowess, and one of the main reasons for this is not taking into account the multiple ways CAP10 can be brought down. Since when have players (besides extremely heavy stall) relied exclusively on SR, spikes, poison to kill off foes? This thing is certainly beatable when you think about how many weaknesses it has depending on which route it chooses to counter pokemon. Here's a simple list of obstacles in the way of becoming 'broken' from both Routes. Note that this is by no means an exhaustive list.
Cons against taking Offensive Route: (Life orb + Magic Guard)
-Paralyze weak
-Burn weak (only if using physical attacks)
-Various EQs/Earth Power (due to weakened defenses)
*-Grass knot
Cons against taking Defensive Route: (Leftovers + Magic Guard)
-Much less offensive prowess
-Paralyze weak (again, but to a lessened extent)
-Very strong EQs (hard to take, regardless)
Magic Guard allows for a new spin in the customization of this pokemon in order to counter new threats and allows more depths to be explored. It is certainly possible that many players will simply use the offensive route, but there are multiple ways to use CAP10 by what I see: 2 excellent abilities, multiple items able to be employed successfully, stabs to work with, moveset of course.
In the end, I try to think most about the concept. Magic Guard heightens the amount of customization we can use effectively, and this is why it is a much better choice than Poison Heal.
Voted Magic Guard.
Poison Heal completely eclispes Trace as a defensive AND offensive ability. Poison Heal allows this CAP to outdamage it's opponent before the opponent can out damage it.
Moveset Example:
Protect
Water STAB
Electric STAB
Ice Move/Toxic/Thunder Wave?
This set would be used 50% of the time or more and to say other wise would be laughable. Simply using Protect and immunity to status plays mind games with the opponent. He can't status you, so he either A) Attacks or B) Switches. This CAP is nothing more than a Guessing game with Poison Heal for the opponent and for the user of CAP10.
Lets assume you get the CAP down to 5-20% of it's HP. Big deal. It'll simply use protect to heal 12.5% then switch out until it can be safely switched in to protect or possibly sweep again.
Atleast with Magic Guard+Life Orb you know for certain that it's not going to play a mind game or have a chance to heal from 10% to 100% in a few turns.
Poison Heal forces your opponent to be offensive against this CAP, it's the only way to beat it due to it's status immunity and devistating offensive and wallbreaking nature.
Poison Heal completely eclispes Trace as a defensive AND offensive ability. Poison Heal allows this CAP to outdamage it's opponent before the opponent can out damage it.
Moveset Example:
Protect
Water STAB
Electric STAB
Ice Move/Toxic/Thunder Wave?
This set would be used 50% of the time or more and to say other wise would be laughable. Simply using Protect and immunity to status plays mind games with the opponent. He can't status you, so he either A) Attacks or B) Switches. This CAP is nothing more than a Guessing game with Poison Heal for the opponent and for the user of CAP10.
Lets assume you get the CAP down to 5-20% of it's HP. Big deal. It'll simply use protect to heal 12.5% then switch out until it can be safely switched in to protect or possibly sweep again.
Atleast with Magic Guard+Life Orb you know for certain that it's not going to play a mind game or have a chance to heal from 10% to 100% in a few turns.
Poison Heal forces your opponent to be offensive against this CAP, it's the only way to beat it due to it's status immunity and devistating offensive and wallbreaking nature.
Voted Magic Guard for the lefties-vs.-poison heal numbers that people have proven to be more advantageous towards MG, but also because Magic Guard would help to proactively allow CAP10 certain things (and, IMO, never let it become a sweeper with LO as its Attack stats are the same). Furthermore, FOCUS SASH. If Salamence is +1/+1 and CAP10 comes in with a Focus Sash, CAP10 survives the attack and then Utility Counters Salamence - does its job by either making it switch or making it faint, the latter of which renders it essentially unable to continue countering, as the concept outlined.
Wait, wait, where on earth is this "Poison Heal is better offensively and defensively" argument coming from? Are you guys high?
Simple numbers show that Poison Heal's recovery rate is equal or worse to Magic Guard's during weather conditions (present at around 30% of the time) and/or when entry hazards are in play (present pretty much all the time). Magic Guard also has the benefit of being instantaneous whereas Poison Heal takes one turn to activate, so before Poison Heal can switch safely into a Thunderwave or Will-o-wisp it has to have been revealed beforehand.
How the crap Poison Heal manages to be more offensively inclined than Magic Guard is beyond me. You guys seem to be using the logic that Poison Heal makes it last longer (it doesn't) and therefore does more damage during its stay on the field. That's... not how it works. If it were, Blissey and Vaporeon would be offensive threats. Please tell me how Poison Heal manages to be more aggressive than an ability that promotes fucking Life Orb usage. Please.
Simple numbers show that Poison Heal's recovery rate is equal or worse to Magic Guard's during weather conditions (present at around 30% of the time) and/or when entry hazards are in play (present pretty much all the time). Magic Guard also has the benefit of being instantaneous whereas Poison Heal takes one turn to activate, so before Poison Heal can switch safely into a Thunderwave or Will-o-wisp it has to have been revealed beforehand.
How the crap Poison Heal manages to be more offensively inclined than Magic Guard is beyond me. You guys seem to be using the logic that Poison Heal makes it last longer (it doesn't) and therefore does more damage during its stay on the field. That's... not how it works. If it were, Blissey and Vaporeon would be offensive threats. Please tell me how Poison Heal manages to be more aggressive than an ability that promotes fucking Life Orb usage. Please.
Agreeing with scampy argument completely,
In addition I also think that if CAP 10 was given Magic Guard, we have almost completely rendered Trace obsolete. I mean, would anyone seriously choose Trace over Magic Guard.
In addition I also think that if CAP 10 was given Magic Guard, we have almost completely rendered Trace obsolete. I mean, would anyone seriously choose Trace over Magic Guard.
Skymin_Flower
It's Seed Flare time.
Would anyone choose Trace over Poison Heal?
Well, maybe if someone decided to use items other than Toxic Orb, then yes. I believe people might find Trace more favourable.
I would, depending on what im countering ofcourse. As for everything thats not countered by trace I would use magic guard.
I'd only use poison heal if I wanted to make it a wall.
Though this sounds like a decent idea, the problem I have with this point is that the vast majority of the OU metagame is not countered by Trace, or Magic Guard would be more useful in that situation (Natural Cure for example)
This is just like saying, Magic Guard will encourage it to be Life-Orb sweeper. Having Poison Heal encourages walling, but with the abundance of Earthquake in the metagame, CAP 10 will have a hard time being a reliable wall against a large portion of the metagame.
Well, I have made my points and I don't want to clutter up the thread, so this will likely be my last post on this thread.
This is just like saying, Magic Guard will encourage it to be Life-Orb sweeper. Having Poison Heal encourages walling, but with the abundance of Earthquake in the metagame, CAP 10 will have a hard time being a reliable wall against a large portion of the metagame.
Well, I have made my points and I don't want to clutter up the thread, so this will likely be my last post on this thread.
Yes, Magic Guard does indeed allow for more customization, which is the goal of CAP 10. However, keep in mind that it is only supposed to be able to counter one or two Pokemon with a given moveset/EV spread. As I keep saying, and people keep apparently ignoring, Magic Guard is going to make this thing so outright bulky it will be able to counter multiple Pokemon with one moveset.
To say that an ability that recovers twice (potentially triple) leftovers amount will not allow a defensively inclined pokemon to last longer on the field is the confusing statement in my perspective.
A point has been made that Magic Guard is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and I do not disagree. On the other hand though, Poison Heal is much on par in its power. The staying power that it grants promotes strategies that rely on staying on the field longer in order to do more damage due to attrition (SubSeeding). There's other ideas you can use, but they all fall back on the bulk and the staying power in the end. This is what we don't want as it suggests 'wall' characteristics instead of countering.
There's no doubt that Magic Guard WILL promote offensive strategies. However, to say that it is the only strategy that it makes viable is folly. The flexibility in Magic Guard, especially with a stat spread that we have decided upon, promotes our concept much more.
Edit: TRX- It is simply infeasible to consider that CAP10 will only be countering one or two pokemon at a time, especially with only 1 moveset and EV spread. Could you really give a possible moveset and EV spread that could counter even half of the top 10 at the same time?
Edit: In regards to bulkiness, to compare the bulkiness provided by Magic Guard and Poison Heal, one must simply consider their exclusive holders. Their BSTs are roughly equal (And I know that they are poor estimates for pokemon potential, Slaking fans) yet Breloom makes it to OU with 60/80/60 and 95/73/90 on Clefable isn't enough. Now I know this is not the only reason they are different, but the comparison illustrates how much more bulk Poison Heal grants compared to Magic Guard.
A point has been made that Magic Guard is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and I do not disagree. On the other hand though, Poison Heal is much on par in its power. The staying power that it grants promotes strategies that rely on staying on the field longer in order to do more damage due to attrition (SubSeeding). There's other ideas you can use, but they all fall back on the bulk and the staying power in the end. This is what we don't want as it suggests 'wall' characteristics instead of countering.
There's no doubt that Magic Guard WILL promote offensive strategies. However, to say that it is the only strategy that it makes viable is folly. The flexibility in Magic Guard, especially with a stat spread that we have decided upon, promotes our concept much more.
Edit: TRX- It is simply infeasible to consider that CAP10 will only be countering one or two pokemon at a time, especially with only 1 moveset and EV spread. Could you really give a possible moveset and EV spread that could counter even half of the top 10 at the same time?
Edit: In regards to bulkiness, to compare the bulkiness provided by Magic Guard and Poison Heal, one must simply consider their exclusive holders. Their BSTs are roughly equal (And I know that they are poor estimates for pokemon potential, Slaking fans) yet Breloom makes it to OU with 60/80/60 and 95/73/90 on Clefable isn't enough. Now I know this is not the only reason they are different, but the comparison illustrates how much more bulk Poison Heal grants compared to Magic Guard.
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