CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Bird]

'scuse me, but if I may speak up; I'm rather fond of hydration suggested a while back. An interesting ability IMO, but never seen in OU (manaphy's still in ubers right?). I've seen a lot of people supporting a status-guard in things like magic-guard and poison heal, and hydration provides exactly what we want but doesn't risk life-orb wallbreaker status. Using hydration would require rain dance; either brought by a team-mate (basically only viable if you're running a rain dance team) or takes up a moveslot of CAP10 itself. Obviously it will be paired with Rest, unless it's not gonna get rest for some aburd reason. And yes, hydration + rest is quite the combo since little to nothing can OHKO CAP10 if it is EV'd right. Hence it could chase out particular threats that don't at least 2hko it.

On the other hand, you can only maintain the rain for three turns (five if you waste your item slot on a damp rock), after which anything that 2hko's you can either kill you if you rain dance again, or put you in ko-range while asleep if you use rest; forcing a switch. So the best you'll have done is waste a bit of PP and maybe racked up some life orb recoil, so by no means a solid stalling weapon.

You can also only run two attacks with this set. Surf/hydro pump/ice beam with thunder, most likely. Although rain does give a rather nice boost to water type moves, this mon is not going to sweep teams with just surf and thunder (mediocre attack-stats rule out non-STAB, thus coverage and fancy fire moves are rendered obselete). On the plus side, you do summon some rain so your steel types suddenly mind taking fire-attacks a lot less; efficiently helping out with the ever popular mence, regardless of draco meteor's presence.

Now there's prolly some things you guys can point out here that are wrong or right with the above graphs, which would be a great help.

 

[familyguyman]

'scuse me, but if I may speak up; I'm rather fond of hydration suggested a while back. An interesting ability IMO, but never seen in OU (manaphy's still in ubers right?). I've seen a lot of people supporting a status-guard in things like magic-guard and poison heal, and hydration provides exactly what we want but doesn't risk life-orb wallbreaker status. Using hydration would require rain dance; either brought by a team-mate (basically only viable if you're running a rain dance team) or takes up a moveslot of CAP10 itself. Obviously it will be paired with Rest, unless it's not gonna get rest for some aburd reason. And yes, hydration + rest is quite the combo since little to nothing can OHKO CAP10 if it is EV'd right. Hence it could chase out particular threats that don't at least 2hko it.

On the other hand, you can only maintain the rain for three turns (five if you waste your item slot on a damp rock), after which anything that 2hko's you can either kill you if you rain dance again, or put you in ko-range while asleep if you use rest; forcing a switch. So the best you'll have done is waste a bit of PP and maybe racked up some life orb recoil, so by no means a solid stalling weapon.

You can also only run two attacks with this set. Surf/hydro pump/ice beam with thunder, most likely. Although rain does give a rather nice boost to water type moves, this mon is not going to sweep teams with just surf and thunder (mediocre attack-stats rule out non-STAB, thus coverage and fancy fire moves are rendered obselete). On the plus side, you do summon some rain so your steel types suddenly mind taking fire-attacks a lot less; efficiently helping out with the ever popular mence, regardless of draco meteor's presence.

Now there's prolly some things you guys can point out here that are wrong or right with the above graphs, which would be a great help.

Rain Dance lasts 5 turns, 8 with Damp Rock. Given the synergy CAP10 should have with Rain, it works but I don't know if we want to go a weather heavy theme. Also, Refresh could give us status recovery if we want.

 

[Alex_Arthur]

I see alot of people throwing out anti-staus abilities without consideration of Shed Skin. A 30% chance of healing a burn, paralysis or poison could be quite useful to this pokemon. Since the former of the 2 could severly cripple its countering abilities while the latter will just kill it off.

Shed Skin isn't as useful as Magic Guard in that the pokemon can still be affected by status and entry hazards but is more useful than ablities such as Poison Heal ,in my opinion.

That being said I'm not opposed to these status blocking abilities. Motor Drive / Volt Absorb / Water Absorb don't seem needed. Motor Drive's speed boost isn't going to that useful. The things I see using Electric type attacks most are Starmie, Jolten and Flygon. Starmie can't do anything to CAP 10, Jolten will still outspeed and is likely choice'd and Flygon is nearly always choice'd. WaTer Absorb is slightly more useful and the healing would allow CAP 10 to come in more and potentially counter more.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I'm in support of 2 things: Damp or Arena Trap.

While this is probably too late to suggest a new ability (I didn't see anyone post this), I think Arena Trap will be extremely helpful in being able to counter what it's meant to be countering. If we switch CAP10 into, say, Metagross, the opponent will know that this CAP has been tailored to be able to kill Metagross. Do we want the Metagross-user to be able to just switch away? "No" is the simple answer.

And Damp looks okay too, looking at reachzero's post.

 

[jayykay]

I'm in support of 2 things: Damp or Arena Trap.

While this is probably too late to suggest a new ability (I didn't see anyone post this), I think Arena Trap will be extremely helpful in being able to counter what it's meant to be countering. If we switch CAP10 into, say, Metagross, the opponent will know that this CAP has been tailored to be able to kill Metagross. Do we want the Metagross-user to be able to just switch away? "No" is the simple answer.

And Damp looks okay too, looking at reachzero's post.

Metagross switching out in itself is already countering Metagross, and CAP10 would have done its job. there was a reason why shadow tag didn't get voted for the primary ability and there's no reason for a similar ability to be voted now.

 

[TPM]

May I be the first to suggest Magnet Pull? Trace covers Gyarados, Salamence, Vaporeon, Flygon, Jolteon, Blissey, Heatran and Kingdra. Magnet Pull only overlaps on 2 of those, and while running it it is a completely different kind of Pokemon, which is what we want this thing to be like.

 

[nccows]

If I may contribute here, I would like to bring back up a custom ability I saw a while back. What about an ability almost like a Recycle at the end of every turn. With a Lum Berry, it would be almost an immune to status type thing, but it also allows a lot of versatility with other items, kind of enhancing the theme of CAP10. Different items can lend to countering different pokes. Just a thought.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Metagross switching out in itself is already countering Metagross, and CAP10 would have done its job. there was a reason why shadow tag didn't get voted for the primary ability and there's no reason for a similar ability to be voted now.

Good point. I think my definition of "counter" was kill, but if the definition is immediately threaten, switch out, etc. then I'll be more than happy to adapt. A question, though: If Metagross switches out, how does CAP 10 keep momentum going if they're likely to switch to a pokemon not countered by CAP10?

If I may contribute here, I would like to bring back up a custom ability I saw a while back. What about an ability almost like a Recycle at the end of every turn. With a Lum Berry, it would be almost an immune to status type thing, but it also allows a lot of versatility with other items, kind of enhancing the theme of CAP10. Different items can lend to countering different pokes. Just a thought.

I think in at least half of BEEJ' posts he's said no custom abilities...

 

[LoZDestroyer]

Though I still support the Status Immunity ability I highly doubt its ability to go to poll.

Therefore, I am placing my main support behind Poison Heal and Motor Drive.

Though I have some concerns about CAP10 becoming a nearly impenetrable brick wall with the potential of 12~18% recovery per turn (Someone mentioned you could predict a Toxic and use Leftovers), it is still, at least, 3HKO'd by most Earthquakes and would not usually run (Shuca, I think?) Berry to knock that to a 4 or 5. Motor Drive has some implications due to its current holder, but it would allow CAP10 to switch in and gain a boost which increases the likelihood of forcing the foe out.

I also have some support for Mountaineer, which, although custom, was created previously and not invented here. Immunity to entry hazards, especially the instant 12.5% of Stealth Rock, would allow it to avoid some one or two hit KOs, as well as give it much more longevity.

 

[tennisace]

I also have some support for Mountaineer, which, although custom, was created previously and not invented here. Immunity to entry hazards, especially the instant 12.5% of Stealth Rock, would allow it to avoid some one or two hit KOs, as well as give it much more longevity.

Wrong, Mountaineer prevents damage from Rock-type moves on the switch in (Stealth Rock included). It does NOT prevent damage from other hazards.

 

[Yllnath]

I actually like to throw my support behind Hydration. If CAP10 needs to waste a moveslot on rain, the 4mss (now 3mss, even 2mss if it's rain/rest) requires CAP10 to run moves much more tailored to the threat it's supposed to counter. It also exactly does what we want to stop status in it's tracks as well as annihilate damage from sandstorm and by doing that, cutting down TTar SDef boost along with it, if you were to face TTar with rain CAP10. +1 STAB boosted surf will also leave a serious dent in said TTar.

 

[jayykay]

Good point. I think my definition of "counter" was kill, but if the definition is immediately threaten, switch out, etc. then I'll be more than happy to adapt. A question, though: If Metagross switches out, how does CAP 10 keep momentum going if they're likely to switch to a pokemon not countered by CAP10?

Remember what CAP10 is. "Utility counter" means that it can be designed to counter one specific pokemon but incapable of countering many at once. If CAP10 switches in to counter metagross and metagross switches out, then you don't have to keep the momentum to whatever pokemon comes out to counter CAP10 because CAP10 is not supposed to do so. If they bring out a counter, then you switch out or do whatever you can to help the team. Simple as that.

 

[Deck Knight]

I've been a bit nonplussed about secondary abilities thus far.

My opposition to Intimidate remains, but here's a roundup of how I feel about current abilities:

Poison Heal:

Poison Heal provides an immunity to Poison and, if you're using Toxic Orb to activate it, provides a punishment for non-steel typed Trick Users. It gives an added dimension of durability and great status protection provided you don't get statused coming in. It allows you to counter a few heavier hitters than Trace does but isn't quite as versatile against a team. If Toxic Orb is Tricked onto something, the opponent can Trick it to another of your pokemon though. All in all it's pretty powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. Poison Heal takes you down a very defensive route, and CAP10's strongest offenses are based primarily on abusing the type chart. Poison Heal gets a thumbs up.

Shed Skin:

Revenankh should be proof positive that a bulky pokemon with few weaknesses and Shedrest is broken. This ability is a bit too powerful. Thumbs down. We saw what you did, Rev.

Natural Cure: This ability is common and Traceable, and most of its possessers already use Status attacks. This is certainly a viable ability and it enables the less powerful CureRest, which goes away after you switch CAP10 out. Not a bad choice. Thumbs up.

 

[Slyguy46]

For all those supporting Air Lock ... your a little late.

I'm going to suggest an ability that I believe would work for the utility counter to counter specific types of teams, Air Lock. Air Lock allows the Utility Counter to counter Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Hail or Sunny Day teams, and thereby deal with threats like Kingdra and Gliscor, which are hard to deal with when weather is in effect. This could work very well for teams that are RD or Hail weak, without devoting an entire moveset to the countering of such teams.

I put my support for Air Lock in a while ago, yet no one even noticed.

Now, to not be accused of poll jumping:

@Status Immunity - Seems a bit overpowered, as it basically counters pokemon relying on Status to work, and is too stall based for the Utility Counter.
@Poison Heal - Seems like a good choice. It keeps the opposition from statusing the Utility Counter, provides accountable healing, and forces a certain item on the Counter, thereby weakening it and not making it overpowered.
@Motor Drive - Doesn't seem to have a purpose. Motor Drive allows for immunity to Electric, but how does this allow the Utility Counter to function better?
@Damp - Ah, much better. With this, the Utility Counter has a counter for Metagross, Heatran, Bronzong, et al much better than Trace will allow.
@Arena Trap - No. No no no no no no NO!! We've been through this before, Arena Trap is way too overpowered for a pokemon specifically designed to counter only ONE threat. Please, let us leave this ability where it belongs.
@Shed Skin - Where Status Immunity is too overpowered, this ability fits just right. However, it is not as useful towards the purpose of the Utility Counter as Poison Heal is. See Poison Heal for details.
@No Secondary Ability - Trace already provides a reasonable counter to a lot of the game, and with the proper movepool/egg moves, the Utility Counter doesn't need another ability to counter other threats.

Because of this, I'm putting my support behind Air Lock, Poison Heal, Damp, and No Secondary Ability.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

There was a reason why shadow tag didn't get voted for the primary ability and there's no reason for a similar ability to be voted now.

Shadow Tag got the boot because it would have allowed CAP10 to counter more Pokemon than it should have. Arena Trap is a lesser version of it, only trapping grounded Pokemon. Now how people see Arena Trap in reference to CAP10 is something I would like to know.

@Arena Trap - No. No no no no no no NO!! We've been through this before, Arena Trap is way too overpowered for a pokemon specifically designed to counter only ONE threat. Please, let us leave this ability where it belongs.

The concept described it as being able to counter a small group of threats at a single time, not just one single thing. It be kinda pointless to use it if the only thing it's good for is killing one measly Pokemon.

 

[Dominion]

Motor Drive is not a great ability for this CAP. We're already sitting at 105 speed. A speed number that was chosen due to it's flexibility with the Base 100's, Scarfs and other speed choices. Motor Drive isn't doing much for a pokemon with already impressive speed.

Volt Absorb is a much better choice if we're that concerned about electrical moves and thunder wave. Being Healed on the switch is much more effective for this CAP than getting a Speed boost.

So, I'f your going to support Motor Drive please give me a reason why it's better than Volt Absorb.

 

[Quagsire]

I'd like to see how a few work... Mold Breaker, for one, is useful though it doesn't pertain to CAP10 as it is, it is useful for getting rid of abilities that could hinder some of its moveset.

Effect Spore would be another, while, once again, doesn't keep CAP10 protected, it helps it inflict status on another to reap the pokemon while its status takes hold.

And Shield Dust would be useful to nullify chances of burns, freezing, paralyzing, and others from move chances.

 

[Midou]

@Dominion: Though I don't personally support Motor Drive, I think it's an interesting choice as the +1 speed boost allows CAP10 to be faster than all the scarf'd pokes sitting underneath 105 base speed (assuming CAP10 is properly EV'd). I actually would prefer volt absorb for the healing, but motor drive would definitely be an interesting option just for the chance to beat out common scarfers, especially rotom-a.

Honestly, I'm not sure where my support lies in this decision, as many of the suggested abilities just seem to be a little too powerful or not powerful enough. As an avid user of Breloom, I know how powerful that double recovery can be and have played with gimmicks and spore-less sets with very nice results, all resulting from how bulky that typing and double recovery is. Keep in mind how poor Breloom's stats are aside from its Attack.

I'm in the camp that avoiding/preventing status is critical for CAP10 to function as it should. Placing Natural Cure as secondary ability wouldn't be so bad, but I don't think adding a custom ability that works as Status Immunity would be that far-fetched, overly powerful, nor unreasonable. It is really simply magic guard without the additional offensive prowess.

 

[LoZDestroyer]

Wrong, Mountaineer prevents damage from Rock-type moves on the switch in (Stealth Rock included). It does NOT prevent damage from other hazards.

My bad, then. Preventing the 12.5% from Stealth Rock is still rather helpful. It could also help in avoiding Stone Edges (Which are rather common among things we want this to stop.)

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Again, I can't lock this thread, but if there is any discussion left here, it should be moved to http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69059.

tennisedit: but i can!