CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

[hydrolphin]

First of all, I'm going to put this out here. Stop it with new abilities!!! New things should only be created if needed. We have plenty of abilities that would work with CAP10.

But mostly, I want to talk about Download. I certainly do not think Download would be broken on CAP10. Its actually somewhat useless against some threats. Lets go down the list of OU's, seeing what gets boosted. A question mark will be put by those who have a difference of 5 or less between Base stats.

Scizor: 100/80 Defenses=SpA
Tyranitar: 110/100=SpA
Salamence: 80/80=?
Heatran: 106/106=?
Latias: 90/130=Atk
Rotom-A: 107/107=?
Gyarados: 79/100=Atk
Jirachi: 100/100=?
Metagross: 130/90=SpA
Gengar: 60/75=Atk
Swampert: 90/90=?
Lucario: 70/70=?
Infernape: 71/71=?
Starmie: 85/85=?
Blissey: 10/135=Atk
Gliscor: 125/75=SpA
Azelf: 70/70=?
Magnezone: 115/90=SpA
Skarmory: 140/70=SpA
Vaporeon: 60/95=Atk

So lets go down this list. Scizor is not something I see CAP10 having a specific set for, but if you do switch in you likely will gain an advantage. But against T-Tar, your actually gaining the WRONG attacking stat-no way you take that thing on with Special moves. Mence often runs abilities that lower its SpD, but with a pokemon that often uses Download, it would be smart of Mence to change it up-there is no major disadvantage to having a lower Def, just -SpD is prefered (and also on the analysis). Heatran is in the same boat as Mence. Latias is a good pokemon to have Download against. Physical electric and Ice are pretty weak-but avalanche is strong enough to give CAP10 an OHKO against Latias. So for anything that is gaining Atk-its mostly useless on CAP10. Rotom-A normally runs Def EVs... but switching CAP10 in on Rotom is kinda dumb-you don't have much of an advantage against it, and you risk being burned or something. Gyarados, again you get only Atk, but this time, its useless-any set countering Gyarados will want to use a different ability as T-Bolt kills him real good. Jirachi is essentially a coin flip-not reliable enough to make CAP10 an all out sweeper. Metagross is another pokemon Download is significantly helpful against-it makes thoe Earth Powers that much stronger. Gengar you are getting atk... which is worthless.

So at the half way point lets recap: Salamence, Heatran, and Jirachi are to risky to use Download against and against T-Tar, your boosting the wrong stat. Gyarados and Gengar give you your worse stat boost, and it isn't needed. Rotom you won't be switching in on. So that leaves Latias and Metagross as pokemon that help CAP10 do its job, and one (Scizor) that can be used as set up fodder. This isn't broken at all. Download is a fine ability for countering certain threats, but it is not reliable enough to make a sweeper with. But lets take a look at the next ten.

Swampert will always have max Def, but he also will always have STAB EQs... not fun for CAP10. Lucario will always have identical defenses exept on uncommon mixed sets, so he just makes for another unreliable pokemon to set up on. Infernape is along with Mence and Heatran in the switch the lowered defense to screw with CAP10 boat-definately not reliable. Starmie normally doesn't run defense outside of HP, so its certainly not fodder. Blissey is lol. Gliscor, Skarm and Magnezone can all be used as set up, so there's something I will conceed on, but Vaporeon is useless, and Azelf is just like Mence et al.

So in conclusion, Download is vital to counter Latias and Metagross, useful for Mixed sets against other mixed threats, and might make Physical CAP10 more of a threat. I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact CAP10 could use a little offense. 80 base stats are weaker than you think... Do you see Tentacruel (who is actually quite fast) sweeping anything? Or even being any sort of offensive threat? CAP10 needs that little boost that Download provides.

 

[R S E FR LG]

Ooh, ooh, I wanna try! How about Sturdy? Just kidding.

Here are some abilities (some of which have been mentioned, but I didn't look through the entire thread). One is Arena Trap, because you need the counter on the field and the opponent can't switch to a different Pokemon to counter your counter. Forewarn and Frisk (or maybe Anticipate; I don't know which wouldn't be broken but still powerful) can be good to see which set the opponent is carrying in case they run a set different than the one you plan to counter. Mold Breaker can help against opponents whose abilities are preventing you from countering them normally. Suction Cups is also an idea to prevent the opponent from Roaring or Whirlwinding any needed stat-ups away. I also think Download would be a good idea, but I especially like the Defensive Download idea (increase defensive stat based on opponent's higher attack stat). I would be more effective than Intimidate/Special Intimidate as it depends on the Pokemon and it would allow this Pokemon to survive a potential OHKO (or with the stats it looks like its going to have, a 2 or 3HKO, as it might need to set up with something) needed to counter the Pokemon. I don't know any specific examples, but I'm sure that it could happen.

Is my post too bad? Like the presence of my post is annoying or distracting bad?

 

[Rhys29]

Rhys, I agree with your dismissal of Filter, but I'm not really sure what you mean by "hook".

I thoroughly explained what 'hook' I was talking about. I would never use CAP10 to counter Lucario when I could have Gliscor or Gyarados do it and then some. There should be a reason people look to CAP10 as a better counter. Only custom abilities or perhaps Shadow Tag will make CAP10 broken, but nothing else will at this point. Many suggested abilities are either generally ignorable and hold no feasible advantage while others take the focus away from the mission statement. Keep the focus of abilities on a single threat, dealing with one at a time if it can deal with multiple (ex: Trace).

Download still promotes sweeping. A Naive/Hasty nature will work with CAP10's typing and with the options it will receive will make it dangerous. Life Orb makes it incredibly threatening as a mixsweeper, comparing somwhat to Infernape (especially on the faster spreads).

Defensive Download will make it wall. It's as simple as that. You cannot argue that it contributes as much to walling as much as Intimidate/Special Intimidate because it does not. Intimidate hits a single foe. DefDown keeps the stat boost. If you had to choose between either, the choice is simply the Intimidate combo as I doubt DefDown will get recognized as viable.

I really agree with everyone who is supporting no custom abilities. This includes Special Intimidate. We don't need any custom ability to make CAP10 work.

 

[Paradox]

I'm going to say this one more time, and I know that I do not speak for all supporters of download, but it should not be used to make the Pokemon more powerful. I still think that the use of Download is to make the CaP less powerful, by lowering the stats that are decided on then using download to boost them to their former levels. The benefit of this is that it sticks with the concept (by not making the CaP a solid wall breaker/wall/whatever) while still giving it a unique and utility feel that some people seem to want. Other than that, Intimidate is fine if we give the pokemon a bit of a defence drop (the stat spreads were designed to take hits exactly as they are, not with an opponents defence drop factored in). I think that special intimidate is overkill, for reasons that have already been mentioned. However, the intimidates primary function would be to scare things out and survive the switch in, which would 100% be going in the direction of soft countering, and the Pokemon would hardly net a kill unless the opponent was sacking his pokemon.

 

[Shock Trooper]

I noticed that some people have said things about Reverse Download being too general. However, I feel that like Trace, it can be situational, as it helps you to better counter certain threats at certain times. Remember that boosts are lost when you switch out, so CAP10 will only gain the boost against the counter its tailored to beat. If it comes in on Swords Dance Lucario, it would gain a Defense boost, but it wouldn't gain another boost if something like SpecsJolt came in, for example.

I also feel that Trace is still a great option for those that don't like the route of having a custom ability.

 

[Aqueos]

Trace is a good idea. It allows pokemon like heatran and electivire to be countered better. Intimidate is fired back at gyarados and salamence. Flygon will be unable to earthquake. Jolteon and electivire roar in frustration as healing and speed boosts are applied. Even blissey could get mad as copying natural cure can cure status on the way out. The possibilities are endless and this could really help the cap.

 

[beastzero13]

All these new abilities seem to be deteriorating the point of this thread to me. There are simply to many ideas that create new abilities and as people have already described we have plenty of other abilities to try. So far i really like shell armor and trace, and possibly magic guard.

All three abilities are about the same in usefulness (though i feel magic guard will be the most used if these three were picked), which is what we want. We want similarly powered abilities to give CAP10 a better role. If it had an overpowered ability then everyone would simply pick that ability but with similarly useful abilities it can become more diverse and act better as a utility counter.

For Trace the only issue seems to be the fact that it is situational. But isnt that what we want. Because it is situation it can counter certain threats better than other with one ability. And therefore it becomes a utility counter that can force certain pokemon to stop.

Magic guard might be too usefull as an bulky poke that cant be toxiced might be a little too powerful.

Shell armor is the neutral pick. It doesnt any more counterable pokemon but it doesnt hurt CAP10s chances with any others. People would be deciding between trace which could either turn out really usefull or horribly wrong or Shell armor which doesnt really help except in avoiding critical hits.

 

[McLuvdisc]

Thanks for the explanation Rhys, and sorry for the last post addressed to you. Looking back, I realize I got a little carried away. I have a better idea of what you're talking about now, but the answer to the question you're posing really depends on a lot of other factors. Why use CAP 10 to counter Lucario, when you could use Gliscor or Gyrados? Maybe you already have Salamence on your team and don't want the second 4x ice weakness Gliscor would bring to the table. Maybe you prefer CAP 10 because you need something that can counter Gyarados as well as Lucario. As a Utility Counter designed to take out a few key threats, CAP 10 will most likely be the last mon chosen for any team featuring it. Because of this, it's difficult to say what the "hook" for this guy is until there's a team that he needs to fit into. I'm aware that this is a very unsatisfying answer, but I don't know what else to say.

As for Download and Reverse Download, I completely agree with you. Both will make this CAP stray from the concept, transforming it into a mixed sweeper and a wall respectively. @Shock Trooper: In your scenario, CAP 10 has been tailored to beat Swords Dance Lucario, correct? If that's so, why should it worry about Specs Jolteon? If you've planned your team well, you should be able to switch out to something else. CAP 10's ability should not give it staying power or sweeping potential - it should make it easier for it to eliminate a specific enemy. If it gets out in one piece after having accomplished this task, that's just icing on the cake.

Edit: Here's two examples to better illustrate what I'm trying to say. In both cases, the CAP 10 has been designed to counter Lucario.

Example 1: CAP 10 with Intimidate

Switches into Lucario, is able to take the hit thanks to the attack drop, and KOs it. Switches out the next turn. The battle goes on...and then suddenly a Special Attacking Salamence comes in! Uh oh! You don't have a counter for this. You get pounded into the ground by Life Orbed Fire Blasts, Dragon Pulses, etc. CAP 10 couldn't save you from your poor planning.

Example 2: CAP 10 with Reverse Download.

Switches into Lucario, takes the hit with its improved Defense, and KOs. But thanks to Reverse Download, it can also switch into Salamence, gain more special defense, and KO that too...this isn't a utility counter anymore. It's a counter for everything, and it's broken.

 

[petrie911]

I thoroughly explained what 'hook' I was talking about. I would never use CAP10 to counter Lucario when I could have Gliscor or Gyarados do it and then some. There should be a reason people look to CAP10 as a better counter.

No one said it has to be the best counter for everything, just that it can counter anything. Is this Pokemon ever going to be a better counter to Scizor than Zapdos? Is it ever going to be a better Latias counter than ST Blissey? This CaP doesn't need to be the best at everything. It just needs to be able to do anything.

 

[Shock Trooper]

@Shock Trooper: In your scenario, CAP 10 has been tailored to beat Swords Dance Lucario, correct? If that's so, why should it worry about Specs Jolteon? If you've planned your team well, you should be able to switch out to something else. CAP 10's ability should not give it staying power or sweeping potential - it should make it easier for it to eliminate a specific enemy. If it gets out in one piece after having accomplished this task, that's just icing on the cake.

Reading this made it clear to me that what I was trying to get at was accomplished. Its supposed to beat SD Luke, but not Jolteon, and the Defense gain from Reverse Download helps it take those physical hits from Lucario- the specific enemy in question. Sorry if it was worded poorly and confusing a little bit.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The problem with a defense boost is that it lingers after CAP10 has already countered the target Pokemon successfully. This creates a scenario where CAP10 becomes more akin to a general purpose wall than a utility counter. It is for this reason that I support Intimidate and the Special variant of Intimidate so much, because as soon as the enemy switches out in fear of you (meaning you've successfully countered them), the benefit from CAP10's ability is nullified. This more promotes it to act as a utility counter than a wall - go figure that's what we want.

 

[Mattman324]

I have carefully considered the options, and come up with the two abilities that I think it should be.

1: SHELL ARMOR/BATTLE ARMOR/ (Insert name for Crit stopping move) (Determined by Flavor, nothing of importance). Let's face it: When a counter that USUALLY works against a pokemon ends up failing because of crits, it gets really annoying. So of course, the Armors stop that in their tracks. Also nice against rare Gallades, Farfetch'd, Absols, Honchcrows, and the not so rare Stone Edge users.

2: Filter/Solid Rock/ (Name for SE damage weakening abilities). DD Salamence is a bit more threatining if it manages to pull off an EQ on you, but with this, that's less effective. It turns the 2x modifier into a simple 1.5x modifier, which means that it obviously is less threatining. It should be self explanitory why this helps, so I'll stop.

HONERABLE MENTIONS: Trace, Compoundeyes, and Levitate.

Trace works on some pokemon like Salamence and Gyarados and Heatran, but what about Scizor? You accomplish nothing. You could easily be attempting to not get screwed at that point by crits or such.

Levitate would break this thing, no doubt. Sorta like Sand Veil broke Garchomp. (made the Ice attacks not always hit)

Compoundeyes was actually a decent idea - who need extra attack EVs if you have Blizzard instead of Ice Beam? You could easily pump the stats towards defense. I decided against that because it could tip this thing towards bulky sweeper, but it is there.

 

[Matthew]

This CAP in no way, shape, or form needs a custom ability, such as Reverse Download or Special Intimidate, to complete its goal or help it counter any specific threats in anyway. This CAP is going to have a fairly huge HP stat, decent offensive stats, and an above average Speed stat, no matter what way we flip the coin. This CAP will most likely be tanking special attacks with ease due to the fact that it's typing lets it do that right off the bat. Fire-, Water-, Electric-, Dragon-, Ice-, and Grass-type attacks are by far the most common special attacks to use. (there's also things like Ghost and Ground too!) CAP10 resists Fire, Water, and Ice; takes neutral from Electric and Dragon (lol what doesn't); and is weak to Grass. The Grass weakness, in my opinion, we don't even need to cover or worry about since there is literally a pokemon in OU that will handle most all Grass-types on its own, that pokemon is Heatran. We cannot look at a pokemon in a two-dimensional way, as soon as it's typing and stats are done (they're close enough) we can look at how this pokemon will work with others.

Now obviously since my posts just seem to be getting ignored I'm going to ask all of you, who support Reverse Download or Special Intimidate, why? What is CAP10 going to especially stop with these abilities? "It can take Draco Meteors off of Salamence easier!" Yeah, but you get crushed by Earthquake. The spreads submitted can take a Draco Meteor anyway, so why bother? "It can take Earth Powers from Heatran!" Oh you mean a non STAB 90 base power attack? That will deal 56.9% - 67.3% damage if Deck spread wins? (Oh did I mention that there were no EVs or natures factored into this calc? If it was 252 Special Defense it would have dealt 42.4% - 50.1%). I simply cannot think of anything which a Special Intimidate would help beat, bar Latias who may not even remain OU. Even if she does then we're left with "Well what if she uses Trick on us? We're completely crippled!"

Really supporting Special Intimidate or Reverse Download is supporting an ability that sounds cool because it hasn't been done before, but literally it'll never be used since this CAP isn't going to have any issues with special attacks!

 

[Rhys29]

No one said it has to be the best counter for everything, just that it can counter anything. Is this Pokemon ever going to be a better counter to Scizor than Zapdos? Is it ever going to be a better Latias counter than ST Blissey? This CaP doesn't need to be the best at everything. It just needs to be able to do anything.

So why use it? That's the question I'm asking. It's good to be focused on the mission statement, but at the same time we want something we can actually see ourselves using. Otherwise I see no point in CAP. It's similar to asking someone 'Dragonite or Mence? Explain.' There are reasons to choose one of the other, a hook. We give it decent stats, good movepool, ignorable ability and we have what I would see as a dud.

Abilities like Filter and Shell Armor don't do jack shit for CAP10 in comparison to many other abilities posed. We want to be sure it can avoid the 6.25% critical hit rate? Please, there are so many more useful ideas out here. The best part is we won't even know if Shell Armor is doing it's job. If you're not getting critted, who's to say it would have scored a critical hit even if it had to option to? It's somewhat hard to conceptualize this, but some of you should understand.

Remember that the CAP's ability should play just as much a role into its efficiency as stats, typing, and movepool. It should be a balance of advantages in which to exploit, not copping out right at the ability because we feel the stats are too good with the typing. Honestly the two stat spreads we have aren't exactly stellar so it will rely on it's ability a good amount. This is how utility counters like Hariyama and Porygon2 worked, and we should somewhat model our CAP off of this culmination.

@requiem4ameme: I kind of get your point, but CAP10 brings its own weaknesses to the table. If we just create something that does an okay job at countering specific threats and becomes ignored, I feel we have failed our job a bit. It's great if we stay in the mission statement, but if we make a dud it's going to make all our work go to naught.

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This CAP in no way, shape, or form needs a custom ability, such as Reverse Download or Special Intimidate, to complete its goal or help it counter any specific threats in anyway. This CAP is going to have a fairly huge HP stat, decent offensive stats, and an above average Speed stat, no matter what way we flip the coin. This CAP will most likely be tanking special attacks with ease due to the fact that it's typing lets it do that right off the bat. Fire-, Water-, Electric-, Dragon-, Ice-, and Grass-type attacks are by far the most common special attacks to use. (there's also things like Ghost and Ground too!) CAP10 resists Fire, Water, and Ice; takes neutral from Electric and Dragon (lol what doesn't); and is weak to Grass. The Grass weakness, in my opinion, we don't even need to cover or worry about since there is literally a pokemon in OU that will handle most all Grass-types on its own, that pokemon is Heatran. We cannot look at a pokemon in a two-dimensional way, as soon as it's typing and stats are done (they're close enough) we can look at how this pokemon will work with others.

Now obviously since my posts just seem to be getting ignored I'm going to ask all of you, how support Reverse Download or Special Intimidate, why? What is CAP10 going to especially stop with these abilities? "It can take Draco Meteors off of Salamence easier!" Yeah, but you get crushed by Earthquake. The spreads submitted can take a Draco Meteor anyway, so why bother? "It can take Earth Powers from Heatran!" Oh you mean a non STAB 90 base power attack? That will deal 56.9% - 67.3% damage if Deck spread wins? (Oh did I mention that there were no EVs or natures factored into this calc? If it was 252 Special Defense it would have dealt 42.4% - 50.1%). I simply cannot think of anything which a Special Intimidate would help beat, bar Latias who may not even remain OU. Even if she does then we're left with "Well what if she uses Trick on us? We're completely crippled!"

Really supporting Special Intimidate or Reverse Download is supporting an ability that sounds cool because it hasn't been done before, but literally it'll never be used since this CAP isn't going to have any issues with special attacks!

Exactly how I feel.

 

[Naxte]

I have carefully considered the options, and come up with the two abilities that I think it should be.

1: SHELL ARMOR/BATTLE ARMOR/ (Insert name for Crit stopping move) (Determined by Flavor, nothing of importance). Let's face it: When a counter that USUALLY works against a pokemon ends up failing because of crits, it gets really annoying. So of course, the Armors stop that in their tracks. Also nice against rare Gallades, Farfetch'd, Absols, Honchcrows, and the not so rare Stone Edge users.

It prevents crit-hax, yes... but that's all it does, meaning it doesn't help CAP10 to expand outwards--it just lets it beat the same Pokemon it already can, only adding a bit more insurance to the fact. I'd much prefer to give CAP10 an ability that increases it's ability to handle a variety of threats (of course, one that forces CAP10 to focus on specifics amongst those threats, in line with the concept, would be preferable if possible), over one like Battle Armor, which really doesn't change anything for CAP10 except for the occasional hax. Maybe it's just me, but instead of something that won't happen in most cases and will even out over time and a number of matches anyway, I'd just rather give it an ability that will increase CAP10's effectiveness overall, and helps it to potentially be able to handle a greater number of threats, rather than just continuing to focus on the same stuff through abilities like Battle Armor.

Plus, we've already been down this road before. It's name was Pyroak, which was given Battle Armor for similar reasons. However, it was really only used because Old Pyroak really had no use for Rock Head with its low Attack stat. In revision, the ability was ditched for the better Flash Fire. Of course, this is just more of an aside and doesn't necessarily mean much in the case of CAP10. However, combined with the other points, I just can't see Battle Armor being an option that we should really be focusing on at all here.

 

[Brave]

I'm just going to throw my own suggestion in here: Unaware.For those who don't know, Unaware ignores the stat changes of the other pokemon, postive or negative. so if the use dragon dance, there speed will increase but there attack won't( Only speed is unaffected by unaware) this makes it so when a salamence comes in and DDs twice and it seems invincible, you can still come in and revenge kill. In my opinion, this makes it a utility counter.

 

[Dominion]

At first, I liked the idea of Intimidate and Special Intimidate, but then I thought about how people would set up this CAP. 252/252 HP/Def then pick up Special Intimidate to balance out their defenses. Thats why I support the Defensive Download idea a lot more, as it allows this pokemon to mold itself to it's intended threat.

If I wanted to be a purist and not support made up abilities, as I usually do not enjoy using them for reasons stated by many other people, then I would have to support 3 abilities in no particular order: Poison Heal, Magic Guard, and Trace.

I really like these 3 simply because they don't particularly help this CAP's offenses or Defenses in a statistical notion, they instead help this CAP come into things that it simply will never be able to counter unless it had these abilities. Being Electric/Water with high HP just begs to be leech seeded, Toxic will be used to cripple that CAP very often and many threats to this CAP hate their own ability being used against them. (Thunder Wave Celebii via Natural Cure, Salamence's Intimidate, Vaporeon's Water Absorb, etc)

Poison Heal solves only 1 Problem for this CAP, Poison. But this takes advantage of Poison. This would allow this CAP to switch into Blissey rather easily, as well as other Toxic wielder. Also, the use of Toxic Orb will help this CAP tank easier. Being immune to status and gaining massive HP per turn is very tempting.

Magic Guard is seen only on Clefable, and it's used extremely well. Being immune to all forms of indirect damage is a massive plus for this CAP. Like I said, Leech Seed, Toxic, Burn (if this CAP becomes more physically oriented), Sandstorm/Hail, Spikes/Rocks. It's a very useful ability all around. And this CAP's defenses would greatly appreciate the help.

Trace is rather self explanitory. Others have said 'why' aalready so I honestly won't say much more about it.

These are the three I support the most.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I don't know why people are seemingly against custom abilities. We're making a Pokemon here that Gamefreak didn't include in the cartridges, what's so bad about making moves or abilities that they didn't include either? If they help us fulfill the ultimate goal of learning about the metagame and being successful at creating a Pokemon that fits our concept, then by all means, they're a fantastic idea. There's no need to gimp ourselves with existing abilities that may not even be totally relevant to what we're trying to do here. In particular, both Expert and Entrench suit our concept very well, certainly much more than things like Filter or Download.

 

[petrie911]

So why use it? That's the question I'm asking. It's good to be focused on the mission statement, but at the same time we want something we can actually see ourselves using. Otherwise I see no point in CAP. It's similar to asking someone 'Dragonite or Mence? Explain.' There are reasons to choose one of the other, a hook. We give it decent stats, good movepool, ignorable ability and we have what I would see as a dud.

At the same time, we should not ignore what the mission statement is. Intimidate allows CaP10 to switch in on nearly every physically oriented Pokemon in the metagame. Levitate lets it simply wall a ton of things. Also, "decent" stats? As far as ignorable ability goes, please to explain how Swampert and Skarmory's ignorable abilities make them duds.

Abilities like Filter and Shell Armor don't do jack shit for CAP10 in comparison to many other abilities posed. We want to be sure it can avoid the 6.25% critical hit rate? Please, there are so many more useful ideas out here. The best part is we won't even know if Shell Armor is doing it's job. If you're not getting critted, who's to say it would have scored a critical hit even if it had to option to? It's somewhat hard to conceptualize this, but some of you should understand.

The knowledge that you will *never* lose to a critical hit is quite nice. Sure, you never know if that one move might have critted and killed you, but you know that over time, eventually one will. With Shell Armor, there is never that risk. That said, I'm not advocating Shell Armor for CaP10. It's not a horrible ability, but it's certainly no standout.

Meanwhile, you are seriously selling Filter short. Filter may be just a 25% boost, but it turns so many soft counters into true counters, with the right spreads. The calcs I made in my post in the stat thread should give you an idea. Deck Knight's spread isn't all that different from mine, so the calcs should still apply fairly well.

Remember that the CAP's ability should play just as much a role into its efficiency as stats, typing, and movepool. It should be a balance of advantages in which to exploit, not copping out right at the ability because we feel the stats are too good with the typing. Honestly the two stat spreads we have aren't exactly stellar so it will rely on it's ability a good amount. This is how utility counters like Hariyama and Porygon2 worked, and we should somewhat model our CAP off of this culmination.

Filter does help CaP greatly, if in a sublter way. Seriously, once the stat poll's done, I can break out the calcs needed to prove it if you're not convinced.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I think filter is a fantastic ability and a lot of people are selling it short but I really would rather not diminish the weaknesses. There wouldn't be much of a weakness left to exploit which just rubs me wrong. I like it better than levitate for that same reason but I would like to see abilities that are not centered on this CAP's type weaknesses. There are a lot of decent ones out there. I like trace and magic guard a lot. I like poison heal, unaware,and intimidate too but am afraid that those (poison heal in particular) could be a little too 'universally' useful.

 

[Rhys29]

Rebuttals

At the same time, we should not ignore what the mission statement is. Intimidate allows CaP10 to switch in on nearly every physically oriented Pokemon in the metagame. Levitate lets it simply wall a ton of things. Also, "decent" stats? As far as ignorable ability goes, please to explain how Swampert and Skarmory's ignorable abilities make them duds.

Explain how either of those can be classified as a utility counter and I would be glad to. You're using two totally different types of Pokemon in comparison to a utility counter. Both use EH's and phazing to work, not their ability which CAP10 should be utilizing. Intimidate only walls if the singular opponent stays in. And yes, having a 5 in sweepiness and 6 in tankiness I would think these would be somewhat mediocre spreads. Sure, they have bulk. But it's really only good enough to take one solid hit well while losing a lot of power to hit back. This does not mean I support Download in any way.

I get what you're trying to say, but these abilities will not make CAP10 broken.

The knowledge that you will *never* lose to a critical hit is quite nice. Sure, you never know if that one move might have critted and killed you, but you know that over time, eventually one will.

That's awesome. Now if only it could be used to counter things. Battle/Shell Armor doesn't contribute at all the the concept or to dealing with threats. There are much better options for this.

Meanwhile, you are seriously selling Filter short.

I believe you are blowing Filter up. You are lowering the power of Grass Knot and Earthquake. Intimidate helps against Earthquake and we don't know the weight to even give Grass Knot credit as a threat.

Filter does help CaP greatly, if in a sublter way. Seriously, once the stat poll's done, I can break out the calcs needed to prove it if you're not convinced.

If it was as useful as Intimidate it would be less ignorable. Simply using an ability to cover two easy to read weaknesses that can be dealt with via type resist Berry if they really become difficult is a waste imo. I've been saying from the beginning that Rindo and Shuca Berries should be taken into account for all calculations. If CAP10 was going to counter a specific threat with either of those attacking types it would come prepared.

At first, I liked the idea of Intimidate and Special Intimidate, but then I thought about how people would set up this CAP. 252/252 HP/Def then pick up Special Intimidate to balance out their defenses. Thats why I support the Defensive Download idea a lot more, as it allows this pokemon to mold itself to it's intended threat.

Explain how running 252/252 HP/Def and then making a smart switch into something with low Sp.D would make it less of a wall. I find it's completely contradictory to even suggest -Att your foe is more of a walling maneuver compared to +Def.

I came upon an idea of how to think about CAP10's abilities. I think, for atleast the first ability we decide on, we should move our focus to giving CAP10 an ability that takes an advantage away from an opponent as opposed to giving one to itself. This is odd at first but a quick explanation should clear this up. The easiest way to see this is the difference between DefDown and Intimidate.

With DefDown, CAP10 is boosting it's stats to a higher level to deal with a threat. In doing so, once the threat is neutralized, the stat changes will remain. I feel this conflicts with the mission statement. Our job is not to wall, but to counter. We shouldn't give CAP10 staying power, it should only be advantageous against certain opponents and then be forced to switch out. I feel boosting its stats widens its counter capacity without any negatives (finding the right time for a switch is arguable of course).

With Intimidate, CAP10 is lowering the opponent's power to deal with a threat. This is a subtle yet I feel vital difference. Once the threat is neutralized, any stat change is gone. This means CAP10 cannot potentially wall the next incoming threat with the prowess DefDown could supply. Instead of giving CAP10 an advantage, we are taking one away from an opponent, thus minimalizing the amount of things it can cover.

Other suggested abilties that do this are Arena Trap/Magnet Pull/Shadow Tag, Mold Breaker, and Unaware. Any of the trapping abilities remove the opponent's advantage of being able to switch. Mold Breaker takes away an opponent's ability advantage. Unaware ignores the opponent's stat boosts. Trace is close, but I feel it's just too close to giving an advantage. I feel the trapping abilities do this concept more effectively but cause more controversy. Mold Breaker is odd and I don't believe it will get much support. I don't think Unaware will get much either due to Arghonaut.

I believe Intimidate is the best suited ability we have right now, regardless of what stat spread is chosen. It only works against a single enemy without having to switch out and focuses on the advantage taking perspective I would like to pursue. Also noting how the metagame is brutally physical (even with Latias, please for god's sakes go back to ubers) and most of the iffy counters are on the physical end of the spectrum I think it would be the most suitable staple ability to have on CAP10.

 

[Phi]

Personally, I think Shadow Tag or Arena Trap should be one of this Pokemon's abilities. The idea would basically be for the CAP 10 to trap one Pokemon on the opponent's team, counter it, kill it and then be a fish out of water against the rest of the opponent's team. Consider it a Dugtrio that can actually afford to switch in on a non-resisted attack. On the other hand, I think contrary to its trapping ability it should have one ability that is immediately obvious (like Intimidate) that does exploits CAP 10's versatility in the opposite direction. If trapping lets CAP switch in on one threat and destroy it guaranteed, a non-trapping ability basically makes your opponent guess what it's there to counter. Switching your Salamence to Heatran from it to avoid the seemingly guaranteed Ice Beam and then, instead, you get hit with Surf? Or I dunno - this does bring up I what I think is an important issue down the line. It seems a lot of the countering CAP 10 is expected to do is based on Super-Effective coverage, then how do we keep him from being able to "counter" a lot of the metagame at once? After all, the practically required Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Surf combo this Pokemon will probably have already covers a humongous portion of the metagame pretty well and makes it punishing for a fair amount of pokemon to come in on his STABs alone, much less any coverage moves we might give him.
This is why I'd like to suggest one more ability for this Pokemon - Technician, because it would give CAP 10 the possibility of using 90 Base Power Hidden Powers as his main coverage move, basically meaning he'll have to choose which threats he wants to hit hard and be absolutely unable otherwise to cover other ones.

 

[black_cotton]

okay there is a big hype going in the intimidate combo but let ourselves consider some points:
1 -the last time i saw the stats spread pool the cap10 was supossed to have great hp and defenses, decent offensives and, in some cases, passable speed.
no lets consider it got the intimidate duo.
and utilizing the concept of utility counter lets hipothetically make a team that is weak ,for example, to scarf heatran and use cap10 to counter it.
we all know what scarftran does it use a fire move, earth power a coverage move (hp grass, ice etc) and in its counters it goes "boom".
if we give cap10 special intimidate and EV it to take hits in def. we have made a perfect counter right? actually no, because with it bulkiness it could to exactly the same thing with virtually any other special base poke , losing in my opinion the point of specific counter ,the same goes to the "normal " intimidate.

i think it is becoming more of a "all purpose wall" than anything.

i still support trace for the enumerous reasons that already have been stated and magic guard for the versatility it provides, cause since it is a utility counter it should , at least, come with no passive damage so can make it duties better and agree with the point (i don't quite remember who said it)that magic guard would be awesome as a toll to break stall.

EDIT: the one who said it would be great to break stall was BANRYU comment nº88.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

I strongly support Shadow Tag for the reasons people have discussed above. This Pokemon is meant to counter only one Pokemon at a time, and after doing that job, it should not be able to kill more Pokemon. Shadow Tag basically lets CAP10 get the kill on the Pokemon it needs to, and then be a sitting duck. Wobbuffet is Uber, yes, but that is because of Encore, and to a lesser extent, Mirror Coat and Counter. Encore allows Pokemon a free turn of set up. Wobbuffets low defence and huge HP lets it take large amounts of damage (even though it might be a low percentage) and hit back double. CAP10 should not turn out like this IMO. It should be customisable to be able to counter one specific Pokemon or set.

 

[Veedrock]

Why in the world do you guys assume that Shadow Tag will allow for only one counter and then CAP10 will mystically become completely useless? Massive speed, great STAB coverage, excellent defensive typing coupled with HP out the arse...I'm missing something here.

EDIT: Not worth another post but..

(paraphrase) artwork polls should affect what we allow

Competely entirely 100% irrelevant. I'm not naive enough to believe a chunk of people in the actual polls use it as reasoning for their votes but artwork doesn't affect anything, period. Not stats, not ability, not movepool. This has applied to every CAP in the past, do not say we cannot advocate something that does not match the artwork.