CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll 1

[Universal Berry]

Although i voted Water, Poison seems to be a great choice here. There are a lot of way to prevent Earthquakes without Levitate, like Magnet rise, Imprison, ect. But the thing is, they're not as reliable. We have to be sure its weakness won't hamper it, and even if alternative options are present, we'll lose a move slot and that's not good.

That being said, if Water/Electric is chosen, we'll have to make it the most different possible from Lanturn. We could make a Speedy and frail Counter (which would look a bit like Starmie), or a fast and defensive pokemon. For that, I would recommend a balance of abilities, such as a more offensively inclined one (like motor drive or an Electric Flash Fire) and a more defensively inclined one (for example Volt absorb or Levitate), which would make it able to handle a lot of threats, but not all of them at once (which was the primary concept of CAP 10).

Also, I voted Water because of a lot of useful resistances and few weaknesses, allowing lot of switch-ins and easy countering with useful STABs.

 

[DawnOfCreation]

I voted Poison simply for the versatility. Sure Levitate is an option, but a lot of us sound very rigid in that every type assignment needs a certain ability (Elec + Poison needs Levitate) because of ONE attack: Earthquake. Hey, if its going to be electric, perhaps it will go Magnezone and vie for Magnet Rise!

I love seeing versatile type matchups and I would love to bring Electric and Poison into the ring.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Imma votin Poison

Seriously, there ARE options for dealing with the 4x weakness to Ground OTHER than Levitate. For example take Filter. It transforms this ballsy 4x weakness into a more manageable 3x weakness. Solid Rock does the same thing, but makes less sense flavor wise. Doesn't look like much but it CAN make the difference between survival and death, especially of you can manage the KO in return.

Say a Jolly Heracross with 252Atk EVs fights a Bold Celebi with 252HP and 252Def EVs. You'd expect it to deal 136.63% - 161.39% damage with Megahorn. Now say that that same Celebi has been hacked with Filter instead of its normal Nature Cure. Now it deals 102.48% - 121.04% damage. Alright, I admit that Celebi would've died in one shot either way, but that's still significantly less damage than earlier. Now say that Celebi's base stats have all been hacked up to 120 from their normal 100. This results in 81.76% - 97.30% from the normal Megahorn with the normal Jolly Heracross... NOW Celebi starts to survive. That's just an example though, so don't bitch to me about how unlikely it is to ever happen.

And guess what? Earthquake's a weaker attack, even when employed by an Adamant Mamoswine vs something with the same amount of bulk and a 4x weakness to Ground (as long as that Mamoswine doesn't have a Life Orb or a Choice Band). Not to mention it's used mainly used by the more defensive Ground-types and all those offensive mons that DON'T get STAB on it. You may go on and say "Yeah you missed the DD boost" or something like that. Well to be honest, the +1 boost they get essentially IS their STAB. You just have to account for the Life Orb that they may throw in, that's all.

There you have it. As long as you have a physically bulky enough stat spread, Filter works when it comes to surviving E/P's devastating weakness. You can also always use a Shuca Berry: that too helps you survive EQ's that your supposed counter might be throwing your way. Levitate's not the only answer. And do I really need to mention Poison's extra benefits?

 

[Rhys29]

@Hydrolphin and more reasons to pick Poison

@Hydrolphin: Don't talk about originality. Poison/Electric is already more original than Water/Electric will be. Water is the most common type in the game. Let's make another one based on what another one already is but make it better. Very original. A bulky Water type that tanks through opponents and can counter a lot of things if made to work as such is nothing original. Suicune, Starmie, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Gyarados already do this. There is a singular Levitating Poison family type in the game. The typing is original and the concept is much rarer.

I agree Poison/Electric cannot counter DDMence/Gyara/Tar. Neither does Water/Electric. You attack Poison/Electric but don't back your own cause. I have already mentioned all these things cannot be dealt with by Poison/Electric. These are threats that will be an issue to deal with whichever type wins. Neither solves the problem.

You list more non-STAB'd Ice attacks in your argument. If CAP10 was designed to handle every form of Starmie then it would have lots of SP.D investment. Wouldn't necessarily need and Ice resist. Generally the same goes for Tyranitar though it would be even less threatening. Starmie's Psychic is something that does need to be feared, you have a point. Though Starmie would have to waste a slot in order to not be countered by CAP10. It also has Grass Knot, though it is used less. The argument can go both ways but more in favor for Water/Electric for Starmie by only the slightest.

You use the same argument. If you're meant to take down Rotom, you invest into Sp.D and such unSTAB'd neutral hits won't deal massive amounts. Poison/Electric resists one of it's two STABs, I find that FAR more effective and threatening than Overheat.

Rotom doesn't have a need for a Water resist in order to counter Gyarados. Neither does Pory2. It only needs to be able to take a +1 Waterfall, which isn't super hard with a bulky Pokemon, and then OHKO with an Electric attack and gasp it gets STAB. A Water resist is more valuable for taking down Starmie, though it isn't quite a potent threat, and CroCune who both types will have an issue with without a good Attack stat or Taunt, which will make it generally easy for both types to do so with STAB Electric attacks. LO Starmie's Hydro Pump can't score a 2HKO on 100 HP/ 85 Defense base stats without SR down and it's already going to need higher defenses than that in order to deal with more powerful threats. Therefor a set designed to bring down Starmie will not have an issue with it. Also, Sucker Punch if that really becomes an issue. You should really be arguing Empoleon more as it is the main threat I can see on the Water side since even if CAP10 switches in it will have an issue stopping it from setting up. And it does have Grass Knot.

You once again criticize Poison/Electric typing without having any support for Water/Electric. The exact same logic you use makes W/E a WORSE counter for Scizor than Poison/Electric. P/E resists both of Scizor's STAB's and Fighting to help completely wall it which is just how the typing works. Constant U-Turns will crush W/E typing much much faster. Celebi is still a much bigger issue to Water/Electric, but Ice type coverage should give it an alright shot against it and it isn't the best point to make about Water/Electric.

Glad you see the advantages of Electric. I see the pluses of Water, so that is even.

With Defense boosted bulk, Machamp isn't really going to do anything to CAP10 if it resists. Sure, there is confusion, but you're saying Machamp will win because CAP10 will always hit itself. Skarmory has base 140 Defense, which helps offset it's low HP. 252/252 Skarmory takes as much as a base 100 HP / 107 Defense Pokemon for example. And it's still OHKO'd with any sort of softening. This CAP would have too much invested into other stats that I can see in order to take hits than to outrun a lot of these threats. That's just how I see it, but switching in and outspeeding a lot of opponents would be great. And make it much more than a utility counter to be completely honest.

Again, no argument supporting Water/Electric, but simply taking a shot at Poison/Electric. Breloom does have Spore. If you are making the insane suggestion we set aside an ability like Insomnia simply to counter Breloom you should never have taken a stab at Levitate. And Poison/Electric absolutely shuts down Breloom after it Spores, like Celebi who is widely considered one of the best counters. It also has STAB Poison for sets that would be designed to bring it down.

Both Levitate and Thick Fat would make Poison/Electric able to counter just about every threat in OU. Yes I would vouch for those. They make it so that you can't counter certain threats with one of the two abilities but you can with the other. That's exactly what CAP10 wants to do.

If you're countering Gyarados with your CAP10 set, it will have chosen Levitate from the two abilities I have suggested if they go through. I don't see an actual argument here, you just add to the utility and restrictiveness that everyone is looking for with your comment.

I understand some of your reasoning, and I actually agree Poison/Electric will not do exactly what CAP10 is trying to do. tbh nothing we have here can without making it broken. Lesser of two evils is giving it a massive disadvantage if you choose to cover other types. The wider you make it's main resistances the more you give it too big of an advantage.

If either goes through it will get my full support, but before that happens I lean towards Poison. Also, as I haven't said it enough, forms would make this concept work. Perfectly. Look at Rotom.

I'm still at the conclusion neither will work, but out of the two Poison will alow CAP10 to somewhat do what the mission statement was aiming for.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Seriously, there ARE options for dealing with the 4x weakness to Ground OTHER than Levitate. For example take Filter. It transforms this ballsy 4x weakness into a more manageable 3x weakness. Solid Rock does the same thing, but makes less sense flavor wise. Doesn't look like much but it CAN make the difference between survival and death, especially of you can manage the KO in return.

I'm aware that you're using Filter as an example on how one could work around the 4x weakness of Ground if Electric/Poison was chosen, but Filter really wouldn't work too well on CAP10. The amount of damage Filter can reduce isn't enough to save Electric/Poison nor Electric/Water's ass from stray EQ. Now if Filter worked more like some Auto Reflect/Light Screen than a damage damper, then I would gladly say yes to Filter any day of the week.

I fear that as a community many of us are thinking of CAP10 as a universal counter and should start thinking about what its weak spots are going to be.

Well considering that the concept statement says it has the ability to counter just about everything within OU, I really can't see how you're surprised by that. It's easier to make something that is broken than it is to make something that is balanced.

I feel that this versatility let's us experiment with other, cool abilities alongside Levitate such as Trace or whatever. It doesn't stifle the creative process.

Let's hope that in the process of being more creative with thing it doesn't stifles CAP10's functionality and/or usefulness. Would be a shame if we found out that CAP10 is a piece of creative failure.

 

[Bogmire]

Poison Close Combat/U-turn Resist, toxic immunity, etc. I'm a bit disappointed at the poll, people just need to get over the negative stigma often associated with poison types.

 

[Rhys29]

Minor nitpick but Filter wouldn't work well for this concept.

100% completely agreed. Using Filter to slightly lower 2 weaknesses is a complete waste of an ability. An immunity or other added resists are much more beneficial.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

Voted Poison, because as I said in the last thread, I don't actually see the 4x weakness as a major issue. Unless CAP10 gets Levitate, which I doubt it will and don't support, it will die to Earthquakes with either type combination. I don't see how Poison dooms this pokemon to be killed off by the most common attack when it is already weak to the most common attack.

 

[2gig]

Imma votin Poison

Seriously, there ARE options for dealing with the 4x weakness to Ground OTHER than Levitate. For example take Filter. It transforms this ballsy 4x weakness into a more manageable 3x weakness. Solid Rock does the same thing, but makes less sense flavor wise. Doesn't look like much but it CAN make the difference between survival and death, especially of you can manage the KO in return.

Say a Jolly Heracross with 252Atk EVs fights a Bold Celebi with 252HP and 252Def EVs. You'd expect it to deal 136.63% - 161.39% damage with Megahorn. Now say that that same Celebi has been hacked with Filter instead of its normal Nature Cure. Now it deals 102.48% - 121.04% damage. Alright, I admit that Celebi would've died in one shot either way, but that's still a lot less damage than earlier. Now say that Celebi's base stats have all been hacked up to 120 from their normal 100. This results in 81.76% - 97.30% from the normal Megahorn with the normal Jolly Heracross... NOW Celebi starts to survive. That's just an example though, so don't bitch to me about how unlikely it is to ever happen.

And guess what? Earthquake's a weaker attack, even when employed by an Adamant Mamoswine vs something with the same amount of bulk and a 4x weakness to Ground (as long as that Mamoswine doesn't have a Life Orb or a Choice Band). Not to mention it's used mainly used by the more defensive Ground-types and all those offensive mons that DON'T get STAB on it. You may go on and say "Yeah you missed the DD boost" or something like that. Well to be honest, the +1 boost they get essentially IS their STAB. You just have to account for the Life Orb that they may throw in, that's all.

There you have it. As long as you have a physically bulky enough stat spread, Filter works when it comes to surviving E/P's devastating weakness. You can also always use a Shuca Berry: that too helps you survive EQ's that your supposed counter might be throwing your way. Levitate's not the only answer. And do I really need to mention Poison's extra benefits?

Comedic gold, especially the parts in bold. The only reasonable part was the Shuca Berry thing. I really hope this wasn't serious. In case it was:

Levitate is bad for this concept, Filter is godawful for all the reasons Levitate is bad, plus it's shittier in general. Even if we threw Filter on the hypothetical electric/poison CAP10, and it was able to barely survive some earthquakes, what's it going to do now? It has no ability to lock in what it's supposed to counter, it couldn't dream of switching in on any sort of offensive move again without some sort of recovery, and the opponent knows you're looking to counter. This is of course, assuming that CAP10 is incredibly bulky. Also, this isn't even considering entry hazards and priority moves. It's garbage, utter garbage.

And to answer that rhetorical question of yours as the end: No, they're not really worth mentioning.

100% completely agreed. Using Filter to slightly lower 2 weaknesses is a complete waste of an ability. An immunity or other added resists are much more beneficial while also not fitting the concept whatsoever.

^Fix'd it.

 

[Seizen]

I've voted Water, because while EQ is damning us regardless of typing, a couple of times we may survive that EQ which we got hit by. Plus, Ice/Fire/Water resistance is quite helpful, much more so than Fighting (fairly useful); Poison (yeah... Poison-moves are used in the metagame?); Grass (Grass Knot); and Bug (U-turn, which means whatever you attempted to counter has switched out. Nice move, genius.)

Spikes + EQ will eat up E/P even with Filter, so to be honest, it's not worth the effort of justifying Filter. Now, back to point, Earthquake is the most viable move to counter CAP10. So obviously, if we aren't countering our own CAP, we don't gain EQ. Which, I believe we can all live with. If not, it's a viable move which probably won't find much support.

Personally, I think Mono-Electric was probably a good plan, though Electric/Water works as well.

 

[Champagne]

I voted Poison.

Honestly, I think a single 4x weakness is managable. It's not like this is a grass-bug (fire and flying) or a rock-steel (ground and fighting) type. Earthquake is scary, yes, but there are other ways to circumvent this weakness.

Also, I'd love to see something new added to the game seeing as how Lanturn already exists.

 

[familyguyman]

I voted Poison.

Honestly, I think a single 4x weakness is managable. It's not like this is a grass-bug (fire and flying) or a rock-steel (ground and fighting) type. Earthquake is scary, yes, but there are other ways to circumvent this weakness.

Also, I'd love to see something new added to the game seeing as how Lanturn already exists.

Lanturn existing should not be a deterrent. Fidgit is the same typing as Nidoking and Nidoqueen and Arghonaut is the same typing as Poliwrath. Both of those Pokemon was incredibly effective at what they do. If the typing fits, go for it, it's not like we've seen Water/Electric done well enough to be OU. Novelty should only be an afterthought.

 

[Deck Knight]

Poison.

Two words: Toxic Immunity.

How many bulky pokemon have been brought low on the basis that Toxic destroys them? Far too many, I'd wager. While Poison does compound a Ground weakness is also adds a resistance to one of the strongest attacking types in the game, Fighting. Add in a U-turn resistance to help against scouting opponents and Poison pulls its weight quite well, completely shutting down pokemon like Lucario whose standard sets have no effective means of damaging the type combination.

Water types have been done to death. They are everywhere and the resistances they offer are commonplace. Fire is the most important resistance Water typing brings, since most Water types fear Electric attacks and a potential Levitate or Magnet Rise takes Swampert out of the picture. Poison Typing also allows CAP10 to switch in easily on Tentacruel and absorb it's Toxic Spikes and threaten with Electric STAB. Poison provides a solid defensive aspect to Electric's offense. Ground types are an issue, but Ground has both an ability and a move designed to counteract it.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Comedic gold, especially the parts in bold. I really hope this wasn't serious.

If you even read the first few words Gothic Togekiss's response, you would've known DAMN WELL I wasn't serious. You obviously can't have though, so you might as well treat this as good news ¬_¬

...

See? I'm not even defending it. If I even intended to, you'd see a wall of text straight above this paragraph, would you not? I was just trying to think outside the box for a few seconds. If there are too few people in the community that can also think outside the box that CAP10 gets Levitate as one of its abilities anyway, then that's fine by me... just as long as the community does what they must for CAP10 to fulfill its concept.

 

[Banryu]

At this point, I'm convinced that the Water, Fire and Ice resistances that Water-typing adds is the most helpful to the metagame today... but having said that, I'd still actually rather see Poison as the secondary typing. Call me stubborn if you will... olol.

After seeing the direction the poll is heading, though, it looks like Water is gonna be our second typing. Just as well, because I've got an interesting idea for what it could look like~

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Poison.

Two words: Toxic Immunity.

How many bulky pokemon have been brought low on the basis that Toxic destroys them? Far too many, I'd wager. While Poison does compound a Ground weakness is also adds a resistance to one of the strongest attacking types in the game, Fighting. Add in a U-turn resistance to help against scouting opponents and Poison pulls its weight quite well, completely shutting down pokemon like Lucario whose standard sets have no effective means of damaging the type combination.

Water types have been done to death. They are everywhere and the resistances they offer are commonplace. Fire is the most important resistance Water typing brings, since most Water types fear Electric attacks and a potential Levitate or Magnet Rise takes Swampert out of the picture. Poison Typing also allows CAP10 to switch in easily on Tentacruel and absorb it's Toxic Spikes and threaten with Electric STAB. Poison provides a solid defensive aspect to Electric's offense. Ground types are an issue, but Ground has both an ability and a move designed to counteract it.

This, this is exactly why Poison is so good. Besides the concept is just to be able to customize said pokemon to be able to counter a wide variety of pokemon while once dealing with one or two threats at the same time. there are plenty of pokemon that don't even carry earthquake. List a Scizor that carries any earth move, oh thats right, it can't use any! And Electric-Poison gives CAP10 great resists to both STABs (U-Turn and BP) that Scizor normally carries.

Also I don't honest see why giving CAP10 levitate for one of it's abilities is an issue. Eliminating a weakness and turning it into an immunity doesn't fit the concept? It doesn't help CAP10 switch in and counter certain pokemon, while providing no help with certain other pokemon? And even if you were using that as your argument it's an invalid argument at this point and time.

 

[2gig]

If you even read the first few words Gothic Togekiss's response, you would've known DAMN WELL I wasn't serious. You obviously can't have though, so you might as well treat this as good news ¬_¬

...

See? I'm not even defending it. If I even intended to, you'd see a wall of text straight above this paragraph, would you not? I was just trying to think outside the box for a few seconds. If there are too few people in the community that can also think outside the box that CAP10 gets Levitate as one of its abilities anyway, then that's fine by me... just as long as the community does what they must for CAP10 to fulfill its concept.

I didn't see Gothic Togekiss's response, or I might've skimmed it and not payed attention. I've been on the internet for a long time, and quite frankly, if you had been 100% serious, it would not have surprised me.

The real problem in CAP right now is that people aren't thinking INSIDE the box. This box I am referring to is, of course, the concept. Also, that last line is self contradictory. You said you're fine with Levitate, so long as the community does its best to support the concept. That's like saying you've got no problem with war, so long as everyone does there best to not kill anyone else.

 

[Banryu]

@ pkmn-taicho's post: Plus you can always give it the option of another ability, like Stratagem and, to a lesser (...well, nonexistent) extent, Bronzong.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I didn't see Gothic Togekiss's response, or I might've skimmed it and not payed attention.

Skim more slowly then. You're x10 less likely to miss stuff

 

[Raj]

Eh, I'm not too hot on yet another Pyschic weak CaP. Voted Water.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Eh, I'm not too hot on yet another Pyschic weak CaP. Voted Water.

the heck? since when does Psychic matter?

 

[Aura Guardian]

WATER:
Pros:
-resists Fire, Water, Flying
-double resists Steel
Cons:
-Few resists
-weak to Grass, Ground

Poison:
Pros:
-Resists Grass, Poison, Bug, Electric, Steel, Flying
-Psychic weakness is not common
Cons:
-double Ground weakness.

If it has a Scarf, it is customized, perhaps, to beat Ground type attackers (with Poison other type). With other items, it has different customization. The Poison type would discourage STAB/STAB/coverage/coverage or status. Thus, Poison.

 

[Rhys29]

The real problem in CAP right now is that people aren't thinking INSIDE the box. This box I am referring to is, of course, the concept.

So ignore the concept and just make a general counter to everything. Got it. That's exactly what we're doing by putting another bulky Water type in OU.

Everyone keeps saying Levitate goes against what CAP10 is doing. That would be a great argument if we had decided on the ability already and it actually did what you were saying. Not wanting Levitate shouldn't be affecting your votes right now, just as Lanturn shouldn't be affecting other's votes (though Lanturn is one of the main examples of what CAP10 is trying to do but even so). Those against Poison/Electric because it will probably get Levitate are poll jumping to avoid an ability.

Vote on the type that has the most limiting resistances for now. If we are going to make this thing work it will have to choose between resisting a set of Pokemon with one ability and then resisting a whole new number of threats with another ability. That way it will still be weak to a lot while being able to counter specifics. While P/E coverage has the fantastic Fighting resist and decent Electric resist, W/E has the Fire/Ice resist and the decent Water resist as well as a higher tolerance for Steel. W/E resists much much more common moves, as unthreatening on many sets as they might be. Poison's other mentionables are Bug (only Scizor and U-Turn), Poison (only good for Toxic/Toxic Spikes), and Grass (rarely a main offensive type). I feel having a good spread of resistances against common moves by type alone goes against what CAP10 is trying to do.

For the BEST example of what CAP10 will be, look at Porygon2. Pory2 counters specific threats with it's Trace ability, which is something I've been thinking about from the start of the mission statement. Pory2 doesn't have good typing: 1 immunity and 1 weakness. It worked by using it's unique ability to strategically counter specific threats in the metagame. Gyarados, Salamence, Heatran, Magnezone, Flygon, Vaporeon, Jolteon, etc. are all countered to an extent because of how Trace works. It had above average defenses and quite a usuable movepool for what it is supposed to do. And the best part is that it can't do everything. Low speed prevented it from being threats to other opponents while taking a solid hit so it is crippled, good Special Attack but having no Nasty Plot or Calm Mind (it does have Charge Beam but that's very meh) prevented it from sweeping, and Trace's ability only works on the switch in so once the specific counter is taken down Pory2 is basically done. It will have to use one ability in order to take down one threat and Trace happens to be how it does this. Both types here COULD POSSIBLY DO THIS though not extremely well. And I just happen to see more advantages in Poison than Water.

Either way I have figured out a possible solution for either type.

 

[Tayla]

Who cares if you're forced to Levitate? It grants this Pokemon a key immunity, eliminating its biggest weakness. Nobody has any problems with Bronzong, and still grumble about Magnezone's force Magnet Rise.

Electric/Poison is very unique, which is what I think CAPs should go for. Creating Lanturn's bigger brother isn't unique at all. :/

 

[tennisace]

Everyone NEEDS to stop discussing Levitate. Discuss the typings for their merits and disadvantages, not what abilities are "needed" (which by the way is rampant poll-jumping). So yeah next person to mention an ability gets infracted!