I agree, Levitate is simply an underwhelming ability and is extremely specific for this pokemon. If the community feels that this CAP cannot survive with a ground weakness then I would much rather have Fighting win simply so it's ability (Abilities) would be effective and actually help this CAP do it's job ratehr than fill it's holes.
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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2
- Thread starter beej
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levitate and secondary typing really aren't necessary for an electric type; there is magnet rise as well, which just adds to the concept. Magnet Rise is just an example, we could make something like Shuckle, give it a mew-like movepool (though that is an exageration), and imprison; my point here is that there are many ways to overcome just one move.
Fighting on the other hand has a lot more to worry about than earthquake, flying and phychic type attacks are not very common, but that is only because those that are weak to them are handled by earthquake and fire moves, or are frail; as CAP has already seen, those types become more popular if there is something they can actually be useful against (like argonaut and revenankh)
Fighting on the other hand has a lot more to worry about than earthquake, flying and phychic type attacks are not very common, but that is only because those that are weak to them are handled by earthquake and fire moves, or are frail; as CAP has already seen, those types become more popular if there is something they can actually be useful against (like argonaut and revenankh)
First of all, why is Levitate an underwhelming ability? Who here forgets that Levitate makes CAP 10 immune to TSpikes and Spikes damage, which will be beneficial for switching into the threats CAP 10 is supposed to counter? *Sees a lot of hands* In fact, even if it's Fighting, Levitate may be a solid option anyway.
People have to get off the "Electric = Levitate" horse for just a few minutes. The Electric supporters, as a whole, seem to think that CAP 10 can achieve its main goal (if it is Electric) through an ability other than Levitate. Just had to make this clear, as it seems that there is some misconception. If you want examples, just think. Like I've stated, I can think of two or three good ones that make the Ground weakness less "cancerous". See if you can.
We have already established the fact that the Ground weakness is on the same level as the Psychic and Flying weaknesses simply because that in a metagame where CAP 10 will roam free, there will be counters for it. Therefore, please get off the fact that Ground is common in current OU play. We know. We don't know, however, how common it will be if CAP 10 is Fighting and is a prevalent force. We also don't know enough about future play to a point where we can predict Psychic and Flying attacks. Therefore, they are as much of a threat as Ground theoretically speaking in this discussion.
Another thing: since when was good STAB bad? I somewhat understand the Close Combat issue, although CC's the move that is the easiest to play around with Ghosts, and has Defensive drops. Otherwise, what's wrong with having a good STAB, especially when it hits for good neutral typing? This allows for CAP 10 to broaden its choices for the types of Pokemon it can counter without having to worry about resistances. Too powerful? What, are we afraid that CAP 10 might actually be able to beat the Pokemon it intends to counter? Not everything is fast and frail.
I'm too lazy to split the quote. I unbolded what you bolded, my responses are in bold.
Oh no, I would love for Electric type to win, do not doubt that. But if the rest of the community will not have an electric type without levitate then I'd rather see Fighting type.
It's not about what types it's weak to, It has simply seemed that a few Electric supporters are voting Electric with the idea that Levitate -will- be the ability and are using this as an excuse as to why electric should be the main type (I.E. we can eliminate the weakness).
I do not think I said anything about STAB being bad, infact, both Electric and Fighting stab are very powerful due to both types being able to cover another's weakness (Boltbeam or Shadowboxing... Fight/Ghost).
I will not discuss Levitate here as we are not even at that stage yet. I was simply making it clear that many of the supporters of Electric have been attempting to justify their reasoning behind Electric by using Levitate as a crutch, or by saying that Ground type is easily eliminated as a weakness. A weakness that we have not decided whether or not will be eliminated yet anyway.
P.S. I Have voted Electric already, anyway. And I still believe Electric is superior to Fighting. Ground weakness or not.
P.P.S. Whether we pick Electric or Fighting, it will have strong STAB options as well as good coverage without a doubt as both typings are notorious for being paired with one of two (or three) types that give next to perfect coverage.
It's not about what types it's weak to, It has simply seemed that a few Electric supporters are voting Electric with the idea that Levitate -will- be the ability and are using this as an excuse as to why electric should be the main type (I.E. we can eliminate the weakness).
I do not think I said anything about STAB being bad, infact, both Electric and Fighting stab are very powerful due to both types being able to cover another's weakness (Boltbeam or Shadowboxing... Fight/Ghost).
I will not discuss Levitate here as we are not even at that stage yet. I was simply making it clear that many of the supporters of Electric have been attempting to justify their reasoning behind Electric by using Levitate as a crutch, or by saying that Ground type is easily eliminated as a weakness. A weakness that we have not decided whether or not will be eliminated yet anyway.
P.S. I Have voted Electric already, anyway. And I still believe Electric is superior to Fighting. Ground weakness or not.
P.P.S. Whether we pick Electric or Fighting, it will have strong STAB options as well as good coverage without a doubt as both typings are notorious for being paired with one of two (or three) types that give next to perfect coverage.
Beej might I just say that I like how you schedule everything?
Fighting was my vote, because even with two weaknesses they aren't nearly as common as Ground.
Fighting was my vote, because even with two weaknesses they aren't nearly as common as Ground.
One last point to make before I stop posting in the poll:
Despite supporting Fighting, people need to stop saying "Electric w/ Levitate will do X" as that's awful reasoning. You can't give your reasoning for an argument for or against something based on something that hasn't happened. It's impossible and illogical to win that argument.
This goes up against the argument for not taking Fighting because of potential Psychic/ Flying prevalent movesets as well - if it happens, it happens.
If you're going to use an argument predicting the future of the metagame, we may as well make CAP 10 Steel/Dragon with Levitate and huge BST in every area. At least that way we've removed almost every weakness, and have huge amounts of resistances across the board. We aren't trying to accomplish that though, but that's the idea I'm getting.
Electivire is a fine Electric-type Pokemon, and one of the only OU Electric types. However, it has no way to stop EQ from hitting except speed and power. It doesn't find much use, as Rotom-A seems to replace it a lot with Platinum's release, but it's still an option. It finds it's use, and makes do just fine.
Similarly, Breloom is an excellent Fighting-type Pokemon, as is Heracross. Neither of them loose any weaknesses from their Fighting type, and both have gained a Fire weakness, and a Flying 4x weakness. Both are still OU. You don't need to remove weaknesses to be OU, but you need to be able to do something with what you have.
You cannot argue one or the other on hypotheticals, because they'll always be just that: hypotheticals.
Despite supporting Fighting, people need to stop saying "Electric w/ Levitate will do X" as that's awful reasoning. You can't give your reasoning for an argument for or against something based on something that hasn't happened. It's impossible and illogical to win that argument.
This goes up against the argument for not taking Fighting because of potential Psychic/ Flying prevalent movesets as well - if it happens, it happens.
If you're going to use an argument predicting the future of the metagame, we may as well make CAP 10 Steel/Dragon with Levitate and huge BST in every area. At least that way we've removed almost every weakness, and have huge amounts of resistances across the board. We aren't trying to accomplish that though, but that's the idea I'm getting.
Electivire is a fine Electric-type Pokemon, and one of the only OU Electric types. However, it has no way to stop EQ from hitting except speed and power. It doesn't find much use, as Rotom-A seems to replace it a lot with Platinum's release, but it's still an option. It finds it's use, and makes do just fine.
Similarly, Breloom is an excellent Fighting-type Pokemon, as is Heracross. Neither of them loose any weaknesses from their Fighting type, and both have gained a Fire weakness, and a Flying 4x weakness. Both are still OU. You don't need to remove weaknesses to be OU, but you need to be able to do something with what you have.
You cannot argue one or the other on hypotheticals, because they'll always be just that: hypotheticals.
I see the U-Turn argument as valid (at least when Scizor is the U-Turner), as well as you BB one (since it is almost never used), but the other arguments don't hold enough weight for me.
It is almost impossible to switch into Pursuit, and this would be the main worry since this is a utility counter. Once it takes down what it needs to take down, does it need to escape without dying.
1/8 SR damage with Electric and 1/16 damage with Fighting is negligible, IMO.
The resisting the culmination of T-bolt, HP Electric, Thunderpunch, Bullet Punch, Meteor Mash, even the rarely used Flash Cannon seem to be more worth it than the resistances you mention. A Psychic weakness would also make it somewhat more difficult to counter Azlef and Celebi (assuming it is carrying a Psychic move). Electric also has better neutral coverage and very good defensive synergy, which is why it got my vote.
When people have electric types they use levitators and flying types to support them. Why can't we just put up with the weakness and support the cap. Besides, magnet rise is given to most electric types so it will probably get it. This thing will most likely have two different abilities anyway so the whole "levitate will hog up the space for an ability argument" really isn't completely valid. Besides stratagem has levitate and no one says it's a bad ability. There are a thousand and one ways to deal with this weakness. I'm sure the cap will get at least one. Besides, explain how a fighting cap can rid us of swellow, togekiss, azelf, moltres, jirachi, etc without a secondary type that just opens it up to other weaknesses.
Everybody has pretty much explained every case out there, and I can only say which I agree with. Fighting has been done before, but Electric-types seem to get little to no love from the people behind Pokemon. Luxray, Manectric and other Electric types seem to have little going for them. Thunderwave is carried by everyone and their mothers, so who needs an electric type?
But I'm sure we can bring Electric back into the game with a well-designed Pokemon. Also, I wondered if Filter was considered as an ability to remove the annoyance of weaknesses? But I guess that's been ruled out already.
Electric :)
But I'm sure we can bring Electric back into the game with a well-designed Pokemon. Also, I wondered if Filter was considered as an ability to remove the annoyance of weaknesses? But I guess that's been ruled out already.
Electric :)
No one is saying the ground weakness is a massive flaw or that it can't be easily dealt with, however, it is one thing that makes Fighting better than Electric, though they are both good choices. "Levitate will hog up the space for an ability" is a valid argument because the key to this Pokemon is that it is customized to do a specific thing, and the Ability is one of the few areas of a Pokemon that is customizable, and also allows for very unique mechanics that movesets and EV spreads simply cannot offer. If you want to get into invalid arguments, using Stratagem as an example the way you did is invalid because Stratagem was not designed to be a utility counter capable of being customized to deal with a specific threat incredibly well. Levitate does not impact Stratagem nearly in the same way that it would CAP10 because they are two very different Pokemon.
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