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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 11a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter beej
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Never thought of it like that... perhaps you could list the move if you think it could be important to see if others like or dislike it, but not specifically state whether you think it should be allowed or disallowed?
...But hey, hey, hey! The self-proclaimed "Gimmick Master of Smogon" pops back into your lives, with a lot of interesting moves that will unfortunately likely prove much too powerful for Krillo here. But, let's start with the one I'm sure on...
Role Play is all but a given allowed since this Pokémon has Trace and the move is Trace in move form. The uses for this are quite obvious, trading a moveslot for the ability to basically "re-use" your ability without switching.
Copycat will likely be disallowed for giving Krillo too much diversity in one moveslot; it would be an interesting move if it worked properly on Shoddy and still used the proper move after switching (this is one of the reasons I've pretty much given up battling on Shoddy Battle 1). It can be used to reflect an opponent's strategy right back at it. You could threaten a Dragon with his own super-effective move, switch in on attempted recovery to attempt your own recovery, and use an opponent Pokémon's status against him/her/it; granted, this doesn't add a lot of countering options and it can't counter everything, but it could theoretically gain advantages on quite a bit of strategies. (This is unrelated, but I propose it should be fixed, even if Krillowatt doesn't get it; Kitsunoh could use it well, if nothing else.)
Me First will probably also be disallowed, but I really feel the need to bring it up; the (highly situational but still reasonably possible) ability to threaten Ghosts and Dragons with their own STAB moves with the pseudo-STAB Me First assures (along with the possibility of any secondary effect the move has) will make them think twice before attempting to hit Krillowatt. The question is, do too many OTHER things use a secondary move they themselves are weak to? (The widespread use of Earthquake by those weak to Ground springs to mind immediately, but nothing else comes as readily.)
Assist is most definitely disallowed, as it could allow Krillo to boost its own stats or lower the opponents', helping Baton Pass teams out far too much for anything else to be fair.
Transform would be interesting to see on an OU Pokémon, but almost definitely too powerful with Krillo's high HP and Speed and thereby disallowed. Still, it doesn't counter everything, and it does have a 20-turn "time limit" before it has to either switch or Struggle; this timer obviously lowers even faster if the opponent has Pressure.
Right, let's look at some of the moves still 'pending' and 'controversial':
Magic Coat allowed. It's not powerful enough to ban. It could have niche uses against Thunder Wave or Toxic (vs Trace), but requires good prediction and a move slot.
Snatch allowed. It requires a moveslot for very little gain. It also requires a lot of skill to use. Sure, you could probably grab a free Recover once. After that your opponent knows you've got it. As for statting-up and becoming a sweeper? That's a marginal strategy at best.
Encore disallowed. Combined with Krilowatt's speed and good defenses, this would allow it to force out or revenge kill a vast number of slow pokemon. We don't want that kind of versatility.
Substitute? I originally said we should ban either this, or Aqua Ring. Others have since pointed out that almost every pokemon gets Subs. So okay, allow Substitute, disallow Aqua Ring.
Morning Sun disallowed. We're against healing moves, remember? 50% in no weather is too much.
Power Swap and Guard Swap allowed. These moves are so specific, they definitely fit with the concept. A move just to beat sweepers who are upping their attack stat? There's customisation.
I know I originally argued against Whirlwind EDIT: and I'm still going to. Thanks Rising Dusk. Disallowed.
Magic Coat allowed. It's not powerful enough to ban. It could have niche uses against Thunder Wave or Toxic (vs Trace), but requires good prediction and a move slot.
Snatch allowed. It requires a moveslot for very little gain. It also requires a lot of skill to use. Sure, you could probably grab a free Recover once. After that your opponent knows you've got it. As for statting-up and becoming a sweeper? That's a marginal strategy at best.
Encore disallowed. Combined with Krilowatt's speed and good defenses, this would allow it to force out or revenge kill a vast number of slow pokemon. We don't want that kind of versatility.
Substitute? I originally said we should ban either this, or Aqua Ring. Others have since pointed out that almost every pokemon gets Subs. So okay, allow Substitute, disallow Aqua Ring.
Morning Sun disallowed. We're against healing moves, remember? 50% in no weather is too much.
Power Swap and Guard Swap allowed. These moves are so specific, they definitely fit with the concept. A move just to beat sweepers who are upping their attack stat? There's customisation.
I know I originally argued against Whirlwind EDIT: and I'm still going to. Thanks Rising Dusk. Disallowed.
The real case made that caused Whirlwind to be disallowed was that it allowed you to abuse the set up entry hazards from other members of your team too easily. As most of the time, Krilowatt will be forcing switches because the opponent fears that whatever it came in against was its target, it can rack up a ton of entry hazard damage very easily.
We don't have to resort to phazing just because that's what a majority of the OU metagame uses. We have at our disposal here other options that work just as well without the added benefit of accumulating hazard damage on the opponent in Haze, Heart Swap, and so forth.
We don't have to resort to phazing just because that's what a majority of the OU metagame uses. We have at our disposal here other options that work just as well without the added benefit of accumulating hazard damage on the opponent in Haze, Heart Swap, and so forth.
I'm going to post my views on the pending and the contriversial moves. This might seem n00by, but I'm doing it anyway.
Magic Coat: Magic coat returns status back at your foe. This, I guess, would help it against foes like Blissey and the defensive pokemon. The problem is that Magic coat is a REALLY gimmicy move, and if you mispredict, they can easily get a hit off on you. I have never seen ANYONE use Magic coat, and it is for a good reason: The move doesn't really work. Allowed.
Snatch: Hm. As we aren't giving CAP10 boosting moves, you may say that, since you can boost with snatch, it should be banned. But the problem is that the sequence of events is messed up.
Salamence switches into... a pokemon locked into EQ.
CAP10 switches in, Salamence boosts. CAP10 cannot use Snatch on the switchin turn.
Salamence either switches out (Figuring it will be countered), or predicts that you will predict that it will switch and use a move that doesn't do as much, hitting you with EQ.
See? Snatch was on CAP10, but he would have never gotton a chance to use it. No opponent is going to set up on CAP10 (With the possible exception of CM Blissey, but I don't think those are even viable anymore). Allowed.
Encore: Encore is... well, the move is ment to be used as a move to defeat defensive pokemon and set up pokemon. Now, the "beating set up pokemon" part is really already done thanks to CAP10's immense movepool, and the only set up sweeper we can't relyably hit is... well, Cursepurt and (whenever it comes out) NP Celebi (Also CM), but Hidden power can deal with those. However, the OTHER part worries me. Locking Dusknoir into... Will O wisp or somesuch is allowing it to beat it's counters on a continual basis. And not just him: Almost all the pokemon set in the "Counters" list have a move or two they would NOT want to be stuck on. Dissalowed.
Substitute: Substitute allows CAP10 to see what the opponent switches in without losing more than 25% health, and allowing it to at LEAST get off 1 hit before switching. Without Encore or a set up move, there really is nothing it can do behind a Sub other than that though. Allowed.
Heart Swap: UNLIKE Snatch, this requires no prediction, and always works. If you have set up any of your stats, I can steal that boost and (Most likely) use it against you. That takes no effort at all to do. And if you steal a boost, well, CAP10 is bulky enough to become a very fast, very bulky, and very hard hitting pokemon, and with the movepool we've given him, would easily be able to sweep. Dissallowed.
Power Swap: Now, this is a watered down version of Heart Swap. And if it manages to steal a Nasty Plot, it could still (feasibly) pull off a sweep. But, after it is used 1 time, it stops working, as your opponent will either only use CMs or BUs (Which negate your attack boost with defense boosts), or just not set up on the first turn with their set up sweeper (Which they should do either way.) It doesn't "break" CAP10 any really, unless your opponent REALLY messes up on the first battle against you. Allowed
Rain Dance: This is a bit of a tricky one to judge. CAP10 has Surf and (I think it is allowed to have) Thunder, but other than that, it really gains nothing from the rain. Now, it makes him POWERFUL, but it isn't like Manaphy where having Rain Dance on 1 pokemon is a good idea. HOWEVER, the implications of this are clear: If CAP10 gets this, Rain Teams will recieve a very bulky and fast pokemon to set up for them. Is it broken? Possibly. Sand is a very large threat in CAP (I'd know, it's all I ever use), and could be used to counter it. But how many times can one switch in Tyranitaur (Or Hippowdon, but to the average rain team, T-tar is hurt less) before it faints? I'm going to er to the side of cation and say Dissalowed.
Aqua Ring: It gives it a 6% boost every turn. Suicune will be allowed use it, and he is about as bulky (With the ability to set up CMs to!), but no one thinks that it will really help it. Aqua ring is only truly useful on BP teams anyway. And since CAP10 isn't getting BP... Most assuredly allowed.
Morning Sun: ...wasn't it agreed that CAP10 should, if it was allowed to be THAT bulky, not get any shot at reliable recovery outside (if you consider it reliable) Rest? Morning Sun would only NOT be broken on this thing in the presence of weather, and if you are forced to run a WHOLE PLAYSTYLE simply because of 1 attack on 1 pokemon, then it's wholly broken and shouldn't be allowed! DISSALOW.
This one's for the road: Guard swap: Really doesn't help it at all. I talked about the swap moves up with Power Swap, and Guard Swap is Power Swap without the abilty to sweep. Unless you steal multiple Cosmic Power boosts, that is, but any foe who lets you do that is a fool. Allowed
Magic Coat: Magic coat returns status back at your foe. This, I guess, would help it against foes like Blissey and the defensive pokemon. The problem is that Magic coat is a REALLY gimmicy move, and if you mispredict, they can easily get a hit off on you. I have never seen ANYONE use Magic coat, and it is for a good reason: The move doesn't really work. Allowed.
Snatch: Hm. As we aren't giving CAP10 boosting moves, you may say that, since you can boost with snatch, it should be banned. But the problem is that the sequence of events is messed up.
Salamence switches into... a pokemon locked into EQ.
CAP10 switches in, Salamence boosts. CAP10 cannot use Snatch on the switchin turn.
Salamence either switches out (Figuring it will be countered), or predicts that you will predict that it will switch and use a move that doesn't do as much, hitting you with EQ.
See? Snatch was on CAP10, but he would have never gotton a chance to use it. No opponent is going to set up on CAP10 (With the possible exception of CM Blissey, but I don't think those are even viable anymore). Allowed.
Encore: Encore is... well, the move is ment to be used as a move to defeat defensive pokemon and set up pokemon. Now, the "beating set up pokemon" part is really already done thanks to CAP10's immense movepool, and the only set up sweeper we can't relyably hit is... well, Cursepurt and (whenever it comes out) NP Celebi (Also CM), but Hidden power can deal with those. However, the OTHER part worries me. Locking Dusknoir into... Will O wisp or somesuch is allowing it to beat it's counters on a continual basis. And not just him: Almost all the pokemon set in the "Counters" list have a move or two they would NOT want to be stuck on. Dissalowed.
Substitute: Substitute allows CAP10 to see what the opponent switches in without losing more than 25% health, and allowing it to at LEAST get off 1 hit before switching. Without Encore or a set up move, there really is nothing it can do behind a Sub other than that though. Allowed.
Heart Swap: UNLIKE Snatch, this requires no prediction, and always works. If you have set up any of your stats, I can steal that boost and (Most likely) use it against you. That takes no effort at all to do. And if you steal a boost, well, CAP10 is bulky enough to become a very fast, very bulky, and very hard hitting pokemon, and with the movepool we've given him, would easily be able to sweep. Dissallowed.
Power Swap: Now, this is a watered down version of Heart Swap. And if it manages to steal a Nasty Plot, it could still (feasibly) pull off a sweep. But, after it is used 1 time, it stops working, as your opponent will either only use CMs or BUs (Which negate your attack boost with defense boosts), or just not set up on the first turn with their set up sweeper (Which they should do either way.) It doesn't "break" CAP10 any really, unless your opponent REALLY messes up on the first battle against you. Allowed
Rain Dance: This is a bit of a tricky one to judge. CAP10 has Surf and (I think it is allowed to have) Thunder, but other than that, it really gains nothing from the rain. Now, it makes him POWERFUL, but it isn't like Manaphy where having Rain Dance on 1 pokemon is a good idea. HOWEVER, the implications of this are clear: If CAP10 gets this, Rain Teams will recieve a very bulky and fast pokemon to set up for them. Is it broken? Possibly. Sand is a very large threat in CAP (I'd know, it's all I ever use), and could be used to counter it. But how many times can one switch in Tyranitaur (Or Hippowdon, but to the average rain team, T-tar is hurt less) before it faints? I'm going to er to the side of cation and say Dissalowed.
Aqua Ring: It gives it a 6% boost every turn. Suicune will be allowed use it, and he is about as bulky (With the ability to set up CMs to!), but no one thinks that it will really help it. Aqua ring is only truly useful on BP teams anyway. And since CAP10 isn't getting BP... Most assuredly allowed.
Morning Sun: ...wasn't it agreed that CAP10 should, if it was allowed to be THAT bulky, not get any shot at reliable recovery outside (if you consider it reliable) Rest? Morning Sun would only NOT be broken on this thing in the presence of weather, and if you are forced to run a WHOLE PLAYSTYLE simply because of 1 attack on 1 pokemon, then it's wholly broken and shouldn't be allowed! DISSALOW.
This one's for the road: Guard swap: Really doesn't help it at all. I talked about the swap moves up with Power Swap, and Guard Swap is Power Swap without the abilty to sweep. Unless you steal multiple Cosmic Power boosts, that is, but any foe who lets you do that is a fool. Allowed
Raj
CAP Playtesting Expert
I think we should allow Transform. Often times the best counters to a Pokemon is actually that Pokemon. Ex: Salamence vs. Krillowatt: Kril uses Transform as Mence uses Earthquake so EQ misses. Kril now has a 50/50 shot at now killing or losing against the opposing Mence because of Speed tie, leading to a switch. Effectively countered.
Ex2: Celebi uses Leaf Storm, but Kril uses Transform. LS does little damage and Celebi has no options but to switch or HP Ice/Fire.
Transform really wouldn't be out of this CaP's league since Trace copies the foe's ability anyway.
Ex2: Celebi uses Leaf Storm, but Kril uses Transform. LS does little damage and Celebi has no options but to switch or HP Ice/Fire.
Transform really wouldn't be out of this CaP's league since Trace copies the foe's ability anyway.
This is pretty much why Transform should be disallowed. It works against everything that CAP10's regular attacks don't, and against quite a few things that CAP10's regular attacks do work against. It covers too many threats at once.
If, on the other hand, Transform just plain sucks and won't help CAP10 at all against Salamence or Celebi or anything else, then it's not a competitive move.
What? It takes no effort to do at all? That is absolutely untrue. It takes the same amount of "effort" as Haze or Psych Up or Power Swap. Let me quote what I said before, because it still applies.Mattman324 said:
All of those things are also true for Power Swap, except Power Swap is completely non-competitive. I would much rather run Haze than Power Swap in all cases because it'd get rid of Def boosts, SpD boosts, and Spe boosts. Heart Swap, however, gives you the shot to beat the setup beasts of Snorlax, Suicune, and CursePert/Tar/Cradily/whatever by stealing the defensive boosts and offensive boosts and immediately forcing them out - whereas with Power Swap they'd just stay in with their defense boosts.Rising_Dusk said:
The other fair part about Heart Swap is that you take drops too. So when you steal Curses from Snorlax, your base 105 Speed stat becomes worthless at -3 Spe. This is part of what makes Haze and Heart Swap balanced competitively against one another. I implore people to see what I'm saying and to come to their senses about this; Haze is a far more reliable move for what it's doing and Heart Swap/Power Swap will largely be for fun no matter how you slice it. There's absolutely no reason to disallow Heart Swap.
Right. Well, Encore is largely played as a team support move and isn't really geared toward Krillowatt countering "certain threats" on its own, so I'll say it should be Disallowed.
Substitute should be Allowed, if not by precedent than by the fact that this CAP doesn't have much to do behind a Sub at the moment besides scouting for counters. I suppose it could Sub/status, but that's not gamebreaking in the least, especially without Taunt. It could Sub/Magnet Rise to mess up potential Ground-move counters, but that's not gamebreaking either because what will it do after it MR's? Kril needs at least three attacks to "sweep" the metagame. If Breloom isn't broken by Substitute with Spore and Focus Punch at its disposal, then Krilowatt shouldn't have to worry about this very widely distributed move.
And yeah, Heart Swap should be Allowed. I guess Dusk went over a few things that limit the effectiveness of Heart Swap in common battle conditions, so I'll add one more.
Can conceivably steal boosts
Can steal boosts, but can't sweep due to a necessity for defensive EV investment
Can steal boosts under rare/reckless circumstances
Really shouldn't try stealing boosts and should KO instead
NP Azelf - 9% of Azelf (9% overall usage; .81% adjusted usage) ran NP in March. In any case, it still outspeeds Krilowatt before and after HS, so it will have to take a +2 Grass Knot/Psychic followed by a +0 GK/Psychic before even getting a chance to take advantage of the boosts.
DD Dragonite - 43% of Dragonite (7% overall usage; 3.01% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. With the speed boost, it can get a +1 EQ off before Kril gets the boost. To EV itself to sweep at +1, Kril cannot survive this attack and is better off using Ice Beam with a defensive spread.
SubPetaya Empoleon - 62% of Empoleon (6% overall usage; 3.72% adjusted usage) ran Agility and 50% ran Substitute in March. After an Agility, Empoleon can Sub before you HS, Sub down through T-bolts, and hit you with a +1 Grass Knot before you get a chance at Heart Swap. Without Grass Knot, though, Empoleon has no business staying in, so you won't get the boost anyway as you HS the switch-in for no gain.
SD Gliscor - 26% of Gliscor (10% usage overall; 2.6% adjusted usage) ran SD in March. This is one Pokemon you can, in fact, steal boosts from; however, with the threat of OHKO from Surf/Ice Beam, Gliscor will most likely switch out. Even if it does expect HS, Kril must be surviving STAB EQ as it swaps boosts and have physical moves to abuse.
DD Gyarados - 88% of Gyarados (17% overall usage; 14.96% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Much like DD Dragonite, to EV itself to sweep at +1, Krilowatt cannot survive +1 EQ and is better off using T-bolt with a defensive spread. With Trace, Heart Swap will only net it +1 Spe while it takes a SE EQ, if Gyarados doesn't switch out outright (which it will).
NP Infernape - 16% of Infernape (15% usage overall; 2.4% adjusted usage) ran NP in March. Infernape outspeeds and has SE Grass Knot. Kril will have to take +2 GK followed by +0 GK before it moves if it uses HS, so it's better off attacking right off the bat.
CM Jirachi - 25% of Jirachi (17% overall usage; 4.25% adjusted usage) ran CM in March. Here, Krilowatt can legitimately HS for +1 SpA/SpD, but cannot spam HS as it will be switching around +2s and +3s if Jirachi keeps CMing and it will be a crit-ending stalemate or will end in one of the two deciding to attack first. Despite this, Jirachi will most likely lose out if Kril runs a special offensive set with appropriate EVs.
DD Kingdra - 57% of Kingdra (6% overall usage; 3.42% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Apart from Sub/DD being popular for Kingdra and halting HS, Kril must EV itself very defensively in order to survive +1 LO Outrage, meaning its sweeping potential will be very limited.
CM Latias - 29% of Latias (19% overall usage; 5.51% adjusted usage) ran CM in March. As Latias naturally outspeeds, Kril will need to take +1 Dragon Pulse/GK followed by (an effectively) -1 Dragon Pulse/GK before it gets a chance to abuse these stat boosts. Sub/CM Latias takes extra precautions here. However, without Sub, even 0/0 Kril can comfortably HS for +1 SpA/SpD, but will need Ice Beam to eventually wear it down if it continues to stat up.
SD Lucario - 70% of Lucario (14% overall usage; 9.8% adjusted usage) ran SD in March. You can, in fact, steal Lucario's +2 Atk; however, you must be EV'd enough to survive +2 LO Extremespeed followed by +0 LO Extremespeed to take advantage of the boosts, if Lucario doesn't switch out.
Agility Metagross - 25% of Metagross (16% overall usage; 4% adjusted usage) ran Agility in March. At +2, Metagross outspeeds and has a very powerful LO EQ Kril must survive before using HS. To EV itself to survive this attack, Kril will have little sweeping potential, especially with no attack boosts, and is better off attacking or paralyzing Metagross so something else can take care of it.
Ninjask - Ninjask had 4% usage in March and is actually a very interesting target for Heart Swap, as you can attack it to break its Subs and HS on the Baton Pass. Ninjask is a great target for Heart Swap, but keep in mind that Speed is the only thing Kril will be getting unless you let it get a SD as you switch in or something.
DD Salamence - 51% of Salamence (21% overall usage; 10.71% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Much like Dragonite and Gyarados, Kril must survive +1 or +0 (Trace) LO EQ while using HS in order to get the stat boosts, in which case it's simply better using Ice Beam.
SD Scizor - 39% of Scizor (27% overall usage; 10.53% adjusted usage) ran SD in March. Kril could have a chance of stealing +2 Atk if Scizor didn't fear Overheat or if Bullet Punch did any sort of real damage, but in reality Scizor will most likely be switching out.
Curse Snorlax - 62% of Snorlax (5% overall usage; 3.1% adjusted usage) ran Curse in March. Krilowatt could easily steal +1 Atk/Def and -1 Spe but runs into the same problems as Jirachi as it would be a stalemate until a crit came along if Snorlax keeps boosting. The -1 Spe from Curse makes countering Kril a lot easier if Snorlax switches out.
CM Suicune - 91% of Suicune (9% overall usage; 8.19% adjusted usage) ran CM in March. Krilowatt has a great chance of abusing HS here if Suicune doesn't switch out fearing SE STAB Electric attacks. A CM/HS war would surely be won by Krilowatt; however, if the opponent knows this, you will probably only end up with +1 SpA/SpD.
Curse Swampert - 9% of Swampert (16% overall usage; 1.44% adjusted usage) ran Curse in March. Much like Snorlax, Kril can steal at least one Curse. Unlike Snorlax, Kril must also take SE STAB EQ from a very bulky opponent. Swampert can actually beat this HS Krilowatt one-on-one unless Kril has HP Grass, in which case it's gaining very little from these Curses.
NP Togekiss - 32% of Togekiss (6% overall usage; 1.92% adjusted usage) ran NP in March. Kril has a good shot at stealing NP here but must be wary of TWave. STAB Tbolt will most likely scare Togekiss off, though, so the chance of getting the boosts are slim.
DD Tyranitar - 24% of Tyranitar (22% overall usage; 5.28% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Again, Kril must survive +1 EQ/SE before it gets its boosts, again lowering its sweeping ability as it must EV itself defensively. In any case, you are once again better off abusing Tyranitar's 4x weakness with Superpower.
Of OU's stat-uppers, it seems, Jirachi, Ninjask, Snorlax, and Suicune are the ones you can most likely surprise with a Heart Swap enough to get some boosts enough for a sweep. For Jirachi, Snorlax, and Suicune, the only real conceivable way to get more than +1 in anything would be to purposefully let them set up, possibly sacrifice a teammate, and then switch in Krilowatt and grab the boosts, in which case, you might actually deserve that sweep. Considering their adjusted usages, this means Heart Swap may set you up for a sweep against ~16% of individual Pokemon in the OU metagame.
As far as the other stat-uppers go, it is either too risky to waste a turn using HS or the opponent will have every reason to switch out, fearing one of Krilowatt's more threatening moves. Add to this list Rising_Dusk's additional limitations to using Heart Swap in real-game situations, Heart Swap looks like only a situational move at best with very limited utility.
Substitute should be Allowed, if not by precedent than by the fact that this CAP doesn't have much to do behind a Sub at the moment besides scouting for counters. I suppose it could Sub/status, but that's not gamebreaking in the least, especially without Taunt. It could Sub/Magnet Rise to mess up potential Ground-move counters, but that's not gamebreaking either because what will it do after it MR's? Kril needs at least three attacks to "sweep" the metagame. If Breloom isn't broken by Substitute with Spore and Focus Punch at its disposal, then Krilowatt shouldn't have to worry about this very widely distributed move.
And yeah, Heart Swap should be Allowed. I guess Dusk went over a few things that limit the effectiveness of Heart Swap in common battle conditions, so I'll add one more.
- Whose boosts are you stealing?
Can conceivably steal boosts
Can steal boosts, but can't sweep due to a necessity for defensive EV investment
Can steal boosts under rare/reckless circumstances
Really shouldn't try stealing boosts and should KO instead
NP Azelf - 9% of Azelf (9% overall usage; .81% adjusted usage) ran NP in March. In any case, it still outspeeds Krilowatt before and after HS, so it will have to take a +2 Grass Knot/Psychic followed by a +0 GK/Psychic before even getting a chance to take advantage of the boosts.
DD Dragonite - 43% of Dragonite (7% overall usage; 3.01% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. With the speed boost, it can get a +1 EQ off before Kril gets the boost. To EV itself to sweep at +1, Kril cannot survive this attack and is better off using Ice Beam with a defensive spread.
SubPetaya Empoleon - 62% of Empoleon (6% overall usage; 3.72% adjusted usage) ran Agility and 50% ran Substitute in March. After an Agility, Empoleon can Sub before you HS, Sub down through T-bolts, and hit you with a +1 Grass Knot before you get a chance at Heart Swap. Without Grass Knot, though, Empoleon has no business staying in, so you won't get the boost anyway as you HS the switch-in for no gain.
SD Gliscor - 26% of Gliscor (10% usage overall; 2.6% adjusted usage) ran SD in March. This is one Pokemon you can, in fact, steal boosts from; however, with the threat of OHKO from Surf/Ice Beam, Gliscor will most likely switch out. Even if it does expect HS, Kril must be surviving STAB EQ as it swaps boosts and have physical moves to abuse.
DD Gyarados - 88% of Gyarados (17% overall usage; 14.96% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Much like DD Dragonite, to EV itself to sweep at +1, Krilowatt cannot survive +1 EQ and is better off using T-bolt with a defensive spread. With Trace, Heart Swap will only net it +1 Spe while it takes a SE EQ, if Gyarados doesn't switch out outright (which it will).
NP Infernape - 16% of Infernape (15% usage overall; 2.4% adjusted usage) ran NP in March. Infernape outspeeds and has SE Grass Knot. Kril will have to take +2 GK followed by +0 GK before it moves if it uses HS, so it's better off attacking right off the bat.
CM Jirachi - 25% of Jirachi (17% overall usage; 4.25% adjusted usage) ran CM in March. Here, Krilowatt can legitimately HS for +1 SpA/SpD, but cannot spam HS as it will be switching around +2s and +3s if Jirachi keeps CMing and it will be a crit-ending stalemate or will end in one of the two deciding to attack first. Despite this, Jirachi will most likely lose out if Kril runs a special offensive set with appropriate EVs.
DD Kingdra - 57% of Kingdra (6% overall usage; 3.42% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Apart from Sub/DD being popular for Kingdra and halting HS, Kril must EV itself very defensively in order to survive +1 LO Outrage, meaning its sweeping potential will be very limited.
CM Latias - 29% of Latias (19% overall usage; 5.51% adjusted usage) ran CM in March. As Latias naturally outspeeds, Kril will need to take +1 Dragon Pulse/GK followed by (an effectively) -1 Dragon Pulse/GK before it gets a chance to abuse these stat boosts. Sub/CM Latias takes extra precautions here. However, without Sub, even 0/0 Kril can comfortably HS for +1 SpA/SpD, but will need Ice Beam to eventually wear it down if it continues to stat up.
SD Lucario - 70% of Lucario (14% overall usage; 9.8% adjusted usage) ran SD in March. You can, in fact, steal Lucario's +2 Atk; however, you must be EV'd enough to survive +2 LO Extremespeed followed by +0 LO Extremespeed to take advantage of the boosts, if Lucario doesn't switch out.
Agility Metagross - 25% of Metagross (16% overall usage; 4% adjusted usage) ran Agility in March. At +2, Metagross outspeeds and has a very powerful LO EQ Kril must survive before using HS. To EV itself to survive this attack, Kril will have little sweeping potential, especially with no attack boosts, and is better off attacking or paralyzing Metagross so something else can take care of it.
Ninjask - Ninjask had 4% usage in March and is actually a very interesting target for Heart Swap, as you can attack it to break its Subs and HS on the Baton Pass. Ninjask is a great target for Heart Swap, but keep in mind that Speed is the only thing Kril will be getting unless you let it get a SD as you switch in or something.
DD Salamence - 51% of Salamence (21% overall usage; 10.71% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Much like Dragonite and Gyarados, Kril must survive +1 or +0 (Trace) LO EQ while using HS in order to get the stat boosts, in which case it's simply better using Ice Beam.
SD Scizor - 39% of Scizor (27% overall usage; 10.53% adjusted usage) ran SD in March. Kril could have a chance of stealing +2 Atk if Scizor didn't fear Overheat or if Bullet Punch did any sort of real damage, but in reality Scizor will most likely be switching out.
Curse Snorlax - 62% of Snorlax (5% overall usage; 3.1% adjusted usage) ran Curse in March. Krilowatt could easily steal +1 Atk/Def and -1 Spe but runs into the same problems as Jirachi as it would be a stalemate until a crit came along if Snorlax keeps boosting. The -1 Spe from Curse makes countering Kril a lot easier if Snorlax switches out.
CM Suicune - 91% of Suicune (9% overall usage; 8.19% adjusted usage) ran CM in March. Krilowatt has a great chance of abusing HS here if Suicune doesn't switch out fearing SE STAB Electric attacks. A CM/HS war would surely be won by Krilowatt; however, if the opponent knows this, you will probably only end up with +1 SpA/SpD.
Curse Swampert - 9% of Swampert (16% overall usage; 1.44% adjusted usage) ran Curse in March. Much like Snorlax, Kril can steal at least one Curse. Unlike Snorlax, Kril must also take SE STAB EQ from a very bulky opponent. Swampert can actually beat this HS Krilowatt one-on-one unless Kril has HP Grass, in which case it's gaining very little from these Curses.
NP Togekiss - 32% of Togekiss (6% overall usage; 1.92% adjusted usage) ran NP in March. Kril has a good shot at stealing NP here but must be wary of TWave. STAB Tbolt will most likely scare Togekiss off, though, so the chance of getting the boosts are slim.
DD Tyranitar - 24% of Tyranitar (22% overall usage; 5.28% adjusted usage) ran DD in March. Again, Kril must survive +1 EQ/SE before it gets its boosts, again lowering its sweeping ability as it must EV itself defensively. In any case, you are once again better off abusing Tyranitar's 4x weakness with Superpower.
Of OU's stat-uppers, it seems, Jirachi, Ninjask, Snorlax, and Suicune are the ones you can most likely surprise with a Heart Swap enough to get some boosts enough for a sweep. For Jirachi, Snorlax, and Suicune, the only real conceivable way to get more than +1 in anything would be to purposefully let them set up, possibly sacrifice a teammate, and then switch in Krilowatt and grab the boosts, in which case, you might actually deserve that sweep. Considering their adjusted usages, this means Heart Swap may set you up for a sweep against ~16% of individual Pokemon in the OU metagame.
As far as the other stat-uppers go, it is either too risky to waste a turn using HS or the opponent will have every reason to switch out, fearing one of Krilowatt's more threatening moves. Add to this list Rising_Dusk's additional limitations to using Heart Swap in real-game situations, Heart Swap looks like only a situational move at best with very limited utility.
Power swap does that too. Only differance between the 2 is Heart is better teamed with super power and against Calm Minders. This gives it a little competive edge thus allowing to actulaly maby be used some times.
I can't see myself running power swap at all.
I have added Krilowatt to the Smogon Damage Calculator. If you have your preferences set to show CAP pokemon, you should see it in the species list now.
Enjoy doing easy damage calcs with our latest creation-in-progress!
Enjoy doing easy damage calcs with our latest creation-in-progress!
After looking at that nice list by Admiral_Korski, my indecision was cured. Allow Heart Swap. I feel that if you steal a sweep-worthy amount of boosts from someone complacent enough to let you steal them, you deserve to kill them. (Echoeing other people)
Wow - we can give the opponent our power losses. Because that's the first thing I'll do - make a Utility Counter dedicated to not loosing any power with high-power moves, such as Overheat, Superpower and Draco Meteor. Let's ignore the fact that to do so, we'll only be attacking every other turn, so we may as well run Hyper Beam/ Giga Impact as it does more damage, ignoring SE hits.
Secondly, who cares if it's signature? We aren't designing a Pokemon to impliment in the games, we're designing a battling Pokemon. Why is Volt Tackle any less significantly signature, or Draco Meteor for that matter, than Heart Swap? Draco Meteor can only be learnt by Dragon types, Smeargle when it Sketches and an event Jirachi, but Krilowatt is allowed to run it. If that is the case, why are you using that feeble excuse?
Yes - the idea that it can be abused is there, but in reality, you haven't got the time to do so, and are better off running weaker moves which don't have power drops if you think HS can make you able to do anything properly.
Heart Swap for allowed.
I agree mostly with that, also, this thing forces switches with those combinations, which is what it must do.
Another point about Transform: since it keeps the HP, you likely be a much more bulky version of anything you just Transformed into (especially sweepers). This could be really scary if you use Scarf to turn into a +1 / +1 Gyarados or Salamence while they Earthquake, and then fire off a new attack with +1 attack, ridiculous Speed, and 506 HP. Even scarier would be to Transform any Curse or defensive CM user that can 3HKO itself (not Regirock unfortunately) and beat them with your higher HP. Also, Transfroming into Dusknior would create something more defensive than Giratina, while Transforming into Rotom - A or Bronzong would still be pretty ridiculous.
Transform for disallow. I don't expect much resistance there... but the implications are amusing to think about : )
About Screens, I don't really want to recommend them, but I don't think they would be broken as long as they aren't available at the same time. If they're available at the same time, then Krillowatt will just become a dual Screener, since that set would be retardedly good. Individual screens would most likely just serve Utility countering purposes otherwise, such as stopping Lucario without Overheat. In this role, they wouldn't even be that good in any cases I can think of.
Transform for disallow. I don't expect much resistance there... but the implications are amusing to think about : )
About Screens, I don't really want to recommend them, but I don't think they would be broken as long as they aren't available at the same time. If they're available at the same time, then Krillowatt will just become a dual Screener, since that set would be retardedly good. Individual screens would most likely just serve Utility countering purposes otherwise, such as stopping Lucario without Overheat. In this role, they wouldn't even be that good in any cases I can think of.
I'm having a hard time believing that Transform would be broken nor even useful on this Pokemon. Who would waste time using Transform when they could be using more useful moves within it's movepool. Mew and Smeargle are the only Pokemon that learn Transform yet I hardly hear talk about using it within competitive game play. I say that Transform should be allowed.
Yeah... he has a point. Agility on Krilowatt to me is sort of like Agility on Jolteon, to a slightly lesser extent. It's already fast, so it has virtually no need for Agility-- ergo, Allow Agility / Rock Polish.
Regarding copy moves, as brought up by Numbuh 214... I say allow Mimic, Copycat, Me First, and Assist, because they're all relatively unpredictable (for the user, less so the opponent) and unreliable. Sure, it's more useful on something as fast as Krill is, but it's still easy to work around. Of these, Me First is perhaps the only reliable one here, and I happen to like the potential of the move to counter Kingdra. Since it's not useful for too much else (possibly EQing Meta), I don't see too many reasons to disallow it, and like anything else mentioned here, it's still a gimmick move for the most part.
On the note of gimmick moves, disallow Transform. I don't know why it's even being brought up, and I can't think of any better way to keep Kril from doing its job than forcing it to waste a turn and a moveslot to turn into something else easily counterable/scare-awayable.
This is mostly my reason for saying the immediately above statement. Adm. Korski, I appreciate your comprehensive list of things that Kril can steal boosts from, but you're also overlooking things that can be potentially hindered or even crippled by giving away the stat drops from Superpower and Overheat/Draco Meteor. Its capacity to both steal boosts AND give drops of the offensive AND defensive nature is what makes it so threatening; by comparision Guard Swap and Power Swap are more balanced and should be allowed.
I think you're seriously underestimating the pontential of a set built specifically to abuse Power Swap or even Heart Swap. Deck Knight built a fairly impressive set as evidence to this; judging by your argument, you haven't seen it, so here it is again:
It's been shown that Power Swap alone can definitely be effective in certain circumstances against certain sweepers, exactly like Kril wants to be. You add Heart Swap and maybe Superpower in place of Draco Meteor, and Kril is instantly capable of countering even more things, like CMrachi, CM Latias, Crocune, Curselax, etc.
Well... I do, but it's already been established that no one should, so whatever.
Encore
Unlike many people, I see no reason why this should be banned. Sure, Blissey is massacred by it, but what can Krilowatt do to Blissey after? If Krilowatt switches in on Blissey, Blissey should switch out, as Krilowat will either be carrying Encore or a physical set. And Blissey isn't hurt by an Encore on the switch either; it just fails. Even if you manage to get an Encore off on a Blissey's Wish or whatever, you still can't do anything to her, without a physical move. And if you do have a physical move, Blissey isn't that great of a counter anyway. Encore isn't broken on Krilowatt, as it lacks much power, and has nothing to set up. I don't see why people bring up Fidget's powerful Encore, when Fidgit actually can set up something. Encore would be one thing if Krilowatt was getting Spikes or Growth. But its not. Encore will just be dead weight. Until someone gives me a set that would break encore, I urge Encore to be moved to allowed.
Whirlwind/Roar
This move perfectly fits the concept to me. Krilowatt is a pokemon that will be forcing switches. These switches will likely go to something that can kill/set up on Krilowatt. Whirlwind can prevent your team from a loss of momentum. Not only does it make Krilowatt better, but it indirectly helps it fulfil the concept. Here is how:
Lets say you run your Krilowatt to counter Gyarados. You will definately have T-Bolt, most likely have Surf, and then have two fillers. Let's say on a Whirlwind-less set you have Ice Beam and Earth Power. On a Whirlwind set, it will have WW over one over the two fillers. Maybe even Substitute over the other as well. But anyway, lets say your oppnent brings in Gyarados on your Scizor, so you go to Krilowatt while Gyarados DDs. Gyarados, knowing it stands no chance against a Krilowatt especially after Trace, (since you're countering Gyarados, its safe to assume you are using it) switches out to a Roserade or Celebi on your obvious T-Bolt. With the non-WW set, Krilowatt can either use Ice Beam to try and check them or switch out. The former option allows Krilowatt to do something it wasn't intended to do: take on multiple threats with one set. The latter option makes your team lose the momentum it has going, meaning Krilowatt doesn't really help your team much. I don't want either of these to take place. Instead, I would rather have the WW set. If you predict the obvious switch, you can WW him. Worst case scenario, you have another Krilowatt check come in-same effect as last time. Best case scenario, you have them go back to Gyarados, giving you a chance to keep the momentum by going to your Celebi check. Most likely, it will go to something Krilowatt-neutral. In that case, nethier player gains an advantage, so most of the time Whirlwind just prevents you from being disadvantaged-not broken, but useful, exactly the kind of moves Krilowatt needs in its movepool. So, obvious I support Whirlwind for Allowed.
Rain Dance
If a somewhat bulky, fast, Water type with Thunder and a useable SpA Pokemon with Rain Dance was truely broken then wouldn't at least get a mention on Starmie's set (Control+F Rain)? Starmie would be a superior choice to Krilowatt due to its higher power and speed, and it NEVER uses a Rain Dance set. Rain Dance fails to even get mentioned in the March statistics (Its in in the "other" 4.7%). Its pathetic that Rain Dance being broken was even brought up, let alone argued over. A RD set won't be used enough to make it worthwhile. Rain Dance to Allowed.
Aqua Ring to Allowed
If this move was broken on CAP10, I'd think you'd see it actually used somewhere. I think CAP10 could use put it to good use, but it just isn't good enough to be broken. A Stallrein set wouldn't really be that effective as it has to use up three moveslots on just surviving, let alone having any offensive use.
Unlike many people, I see no reason why this should be banned. Sure, Blissey is massacred by it, but what can Krilowatt do to Blissey after? If Krilowatt switches in on Blissey, Blissey should switch out, as Krilowat will either be carrying Encore or a physical set. And Blissey isn't hurt by an Encore on the switch either; it just fails. Even if you manage to get an Encore off on a Blissey's Wish or whatever, you still can't do anything to her, without a physical move. And if you do have a physical move, Blissey isn't that great of a counter anyway. Encore isn't broken on Krilowatt, as it lacks much power, and has nothing to set up. I don't see why people bring up Fidget's powerful Encore, when Fidgit actually can set up something. Encore would be one thing if Krilowatt was getting Spikes or Growth. But its not. Encore will just be dead weight. Until someone gives me a set that would break encore, I urge Encore to be moved to allowed.
Whirlwind/Roar
This move perfectly fits the concept to me. Krilowatt is a pokemon that will be forcing switches. These switches will likely go to something that can kill/set up on Krilowatt. Whirlwind can prevent your team from a loss of momentum. Not only does it make Krilowatt better, but it indirectly helps it fulfil the concept. Here is how:
Lets say you run your Krilowatt to counter Gyarados. You will definately have T-Bolt, most likely have Surf, and then have two fillers. Let's say on a Whirlwind-less set you have Ice Beam and Earth Power. On a Whirlwind set, it will have WW over one over the two fillers. Maybe even Substitute over the other as well. But anyway, lets say your oppnent brings in Gyarados on your Scizor, so you go to Krilowatt while Gyarados DDs. Gyarados, knowing it stands no chance against a Krilowatt especially after Trace, (since you're countering Gyarados, its safe to assume you are using it) switches out to a Roserade or Celebi on your obvious T-Bolt. With the non-WW set, Krilowatt can either use Ice Beam to try and check them or switch out. The former option allows Krilowatt to do something it wasn't intended to do: take on multiple threats with one set. The latter option makes your team lose the momentum it has going, meaning Krilowatt doesn't really help your team much. I don't want either of these to take place. Instead, I would rather have the WW set. If you predict the obvious switch, you can WW him. Worst case scenario, you have another Krilowatt check come in-same effect as last time. Best case scenario, you have them go back to Gyarados, giving you a chance to keep the momentum by going to your Celebi check. Most likely, it will go to something Krilowatt-neutral. In that case, nethier player gains an advantage, so most of the time Whirlwind just prevents you from being disadvantaged-not broken, but useful, exactly the kind of moves Krilowatt needs in its movepool. So, obvious I support Whirlwind for Allowed.
Rain Dance
If a somewhat bulky, fast, Water type with Thunder and a useable SpA Pokemon with Rain Dance was truely broken then wouldn't at least get a mention on Starmie's set (Control+F Rain)? Starmie would be a superior choice to Krilowatt due to its higher power and speed, and it NEVER uses a Rain Dance set. Rain Dance fails to even get mentioned in the March statistics (Its in in the "other" 4.7%). Its pathetic that Rain Dance being broken was even brought up, let alone argued over. A RD set won't be used enough to make it worthwhile. Rain Dance to Allowed.
Aqua Ring to Allowed
If this move was broken on CAP10, I'd think you'd see it actually used somewhere. I think CAP10 could use put it to good use, but it just isn't good enough to be broken. A Stallrein set wouldn't really be that effective as it has to use up three moveslots on just surviving, let alone having any offensive use.
Disallow Encore. Defensive stats of 151 HP, 73 Defense and 74 Special Defense, with Mirror Coat and Counter, would just make it a sturdier Wobbuffet if it got an Encore in. But even outside of those moves I really don't think Encore would be a good idea. And even though it's a stat raising move, I think Charge is reasonable on this Pokémon. Oh and I would put Transform in the Disallow section also
One thing here, I'm definitely for allowing Power Swap. It isn't actually a stat boost as such, and isn't going to be effective enough to allow a sweep, BUT, it gives a great deal of versatility if its in against a wall which it can't beat (since, seemingly, status is against the rules as well).
Ok so for agility, the problem is not that it would be broken on krillowatt because it clearly wouldnt be. The problem is that the only purpose it can be for is sweeping. There are very few other points to agility besides baton passing which is not relevant as Krillowatt will definitely not be getting baton pass. It wont help at all but having a move that's only use is in sweeping is a problem for a utility counter. agility for disallowed
I'm editing the OP again right now, to reflect the discussion in this thread along with my personal preferences and beliefs. In addition, I will be providing my reasoning for outright disallowing certain moves that have aroused a lot of debate.
Regarding Whirlwind/Roar - I am pretty much entirely against these moves, and I will explain why. This Pokemon is built almost perfectly for use in a stall context as it is, which I don't think is a problem in and of itself, as being able to counter specific threats is inherently useful for a stall team. But giving this Pokemon Whirlwind and Roar makes it a fantastic team shuffler with Spikes. In addition, it doesn't provide us with an ability to beat any *specific* threat and is instead a really general way to stop set-uppers that is completely blind towards what you use it against AND steals momentum tremendously. For the record, I'm not saying that these moves are necessarily broken. They simply provide this Pokemon with the ability to do something that I don't think it should have. Haze and even Perish Song don't do this to the same extent, because they don't grab momentum by literally forcing switches. This move will likely never be moved.
Regarding Encore - I'm potentially willing to budge on this, but as of the moment, I'm pretty opposed to this move. People cite being able to do something to Blissey as the litmus test for allowing this move, which I think is silly. This Pokemon has the bulk and typing to switch into a wide variety of attacks, and with its high Speed, it can potentially take advantage of a huge number of threats by Encoring them. For example, you can Encore virtually any slower defensive Pokemon using a support move, any slower sweeper using a setup move, and any resisted attack used by a slower Pokemon. Unless somebody can provide proof that this is either untrue or not a big deal, I am inclined to disallow Encore entirely.
Regarding Morning Sun/Synthesis/etc. - This is a move I've been pretty ambivalent about, but after thinking about it for a while and reading certain posts that were for disallowing it, I think it might be best to keep this one off-limits. Magic Guard is an extremely powerful ability, and there are numerous Pokemon that are considered extremely bulky and durable that have neither Magic Guard NOR reliable recovery. The SS argument is silly, because if you don't want to run Tyranitar or Hippowdon, it means you're basically dealing with Recover Krilowatt, which has already been disallowed. So that's where I stand on this at the moment.
Regarding Whirlwind/Roar - I am pretty much entirely against these moves, and I will explain why. This Pokemon is built almost perfectly for use in a stall context as it is, which I don't think is a problem in and of itself, as being able to counter specific threats is inherently useful for a stall team. But giving this Pokemon Whirlwind and Roar makes it a fantastic team shuffler with Spikes. In addition, it doesn't provide us with an ability to beat any *specific* threat and is instead a really general way to stop set-uppers that is completely blind towards what you use it against AND steals momentum tremendously. For the record, I'm not saying that these moves are necessarily broken. They simply provide this Pokemon with the ability to do something that I don't think it should have. Haze and even Perish Song don't do this to the same extent, because they don't grab momentum by literally forcing switches. This move will likely never be moved.
Regarding Encore - I'm potentially willing to budge on this, but as of the moment, I'm pretty opposed to this move. People cite being able to do something to Blissey as the litmus test for allowing this move, which I think is silly. This Pokemon has the bulk and typing to switch into a wide variety of attacks, and with its high Speed, it can potentially take advantage of a huge number of threats by Encoring them. For example, you can Encore virtually any slower defensive Pokemon using a support move, any slower sweeper using a setup move, and any resisted attack used by a slower Pokemon. Unless somebody can provide proof that this is either untrue or not a big deal, I am inclined to disallow Encore entirely.
Regarding Morning Sun/Synthesis/etc. - This is a move I've been pretty ambivalent about, but after thinking about it for a while and reading certain posts that were for disallowing it, I think it might be best to keep this one off-limits. Magic Guard is an extremely powerful ability, and there are numerous Pokemon that are considered extremely bulky and durable that have neither Magic Guard NOR reliable recovery. The SS argument is silly, because if you don't want to run Tyranitar or Hippowdon, it means you're basically dealing with Recover Krilowatt, which has already been disallowed. So that's where I stand on this at the moment.
I think you're on the money with this one. Speaking as a frequent user of Poliwrath in UU, it's incredibly easy to predict a support/stat-up or recovery move to switch in on and Encore it, giving you a free turn to do whatever the hell you want. Allowing this is going to prove to be a mistake later on, as Krilowatt will not only be a massive dick to a few sweepers your team is weak to, but the entirety of OU.
- Status