CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 10a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[SinisterSamurai]

However, I don't understand disallowing Ice Beam in tandem with this, because then instead of the cookie cutter "Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam", you're going to be using a different cookie cutter set in which Dragon moves are included and you have the option of running a Bug move to hit Celebi. I feel that the only reason people are complaining about Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam being cookie cutter is because it's cookie cutter *and* unoriginal. By limiting the coverage we get, we are automatically creating this cookie cutter set situation.

Every Smogon strategy reads like a cookie cutter. I think the concern here is that, if you allow Thunder/Water/Ice Beam, it's going to be a cookie that's twice times the size of Thunder/Water/Dragon or Thunder/Water/Fire or Thunder/Water/Bug.

The concept is to have a Poke that can counter a couple of things at once, but not a lot at once. The argument seems to be that Ice Beam allows CAP10 to counter 60-70% of the metagame with just three move slots, which is waaaay more than just "covering a hole in your team." I'm not exactly positive, but it kinda looks like DrkSlay's numbers agree.

What we need is a comprehensive list of what pokemon can be countered with each offensive move, rather than a list of the best move to handle Pokemon X, Pokemon Y, or Pokemon Z. That way we try to regulate redundant coverage to truly make CAP10 a customizable, but niche, pokemon.

TL; DR: Everyone wants CAP10 to be a threat in some form. The concern with Ice Beam is that, rather than tailoring CAP10 to cover your team's weakness, you'll be tailoring your team to cover for CAP10's weakness.

Just to be perfectly clear, is this more in response to my more recent Volt Tackle arguments, or my earlier posts in the thread about 'not getting moves because it shouldn't be able to use them'?

In any case, yes, I get it. I guess I didn't fully understand that this is not the end-all-be-all of the offensive movepool, so I'll save my flavor crap for later, sorry.

I think what Beej was getting at is that if you have a problem with movepool flavor, it will have to be reflected in your voting, and nothing more. If you really want to talk about flavor, go to The Kitchen and make a damned sandwich.

 

[Banryu]

I'm just not even going to address people who want to get rid of Ice Beam / STAB attacks, this is pure foolishness and has been addressed by the TL already.

I am also against Outrage. Again, a Base 120 move with great coverage, screams to me that it may be spammed to catch switch-ins, especially as CAP10's targets are inevitably going to switch.

I definitely agree with most of what you said, but I just want to point out that Outrage is not and has never been an easily-spammable move, due to the fact that it gets locked into it and is prone to easy Steel switching-in and revenge-killing. Sure, Kingdra falls to it, but then Agiligross comes in for an easy setup and EQ revenge-kill, for one example. So if anything, the fact that it has that negative side-effect and is really only good for Kingdra (since, as you said, most things will be shrugging off non-SE hits from it) means that it isn't really overpowered, or that its power is neutralized by its side-effects.

Neutral on Overheat. I feel that this is almost neccessary to punish Metagross though it isn't needed for much else. I'm okay with this one going either way and am kind of on the fence about it myself.

I'm also feeling kind of neutral about Overheat right now. Can someone post calcs for CAP-10's EQ against Meta? Is he capable of beating Meta WITHOUT Overheat? I guess that's the real question to address.

Also, I'm still not seeing a valad arguement for Earthquake. Hits Electivire hard?! Hits Lucario hard? Do we need a Super Effective Move for Every. Single. OU. Pokemon?

It needs Earthquake or it dies to Jolteon and Magnezone. Drkslay posted the calcs earlier in the thread, and it loses out to them guaranteed otherwise. Also, you can't rely on getting a strong neutral hit on the switchin for a kill, if Lucario switches in on something like, say Ice Punch then TPunch is not likely to finish it off. (still, Luke is addressed with Superpower / Cross Chop... but then Jolteon and Magnezone still go unaddressed.)

And no, I don't think we need to address every OU Pokemon, which is why I'd be okay with leaving off a Dragon move so that it is vulnerable to Kingdra. (offensively, anyway)

The concept is to have a Poke that can counter a couple of things at once, but not a lot at once. The argument seems to be that Ice Beam allows CAP10 to counter 60-70% of the metagame with just three move slots, which is waaaay more than just "covering a hole in your team." I'm not exactly positive, but it kinda looks like DrkSlay's numbers agree.

What we need is a comprehensive list of what pokemon can be countered with each offensive move, rather than a list of the best move to handle Pokemon X, Pokemon Y, or Pokemon Z. That way we try to regulate redundant coverage to truly make CAP10 a customizable, but niche, pokemon.

I like this thinking.

Also, I was wondering how it would be if CAP-10 got certain attack types on one spectrum, but not the other. For instance, it gets Night Slash, but no Dark Pulse, or Psychic, but no Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut. I'm not specifically advocating these examples, but I'm curious to hear what people think of that idea. Personally, that's kind of how I'm imagining it to be with its Electric STAB; it doesn't seem like there's much that it hits on the physical side with Electric attacks, bar something as powerful as VT, and it wants to be using the moveslots more for things like Superpower / Cross Chop to counter Lax, EQ to counter Steels, etc. Of course, I don't expect that to be implemented, it was just a thought.

 

[ferron]

Every Smogon strategy reads like a cookie cutter. I think the concern here is that, if you allow Thunder/Water/Ice Beam, it's going to be a cookie that's twice times the size of Thunder/Water/Dragon or Thunder/Water/Fire or Thunder/Water/Bug.

The concept is to have a Poke that can counter a couple of things at once, but not a lot at once. The argument seems to be that Ice Beam allows CAP10 to counter 60-70% of the metagame with just three move slots, which is waaaay more than just "covering a hole in your team." I'm not exactly positive, but it kinda looks like DrkSlay's numbers agree.

What we need is a comprehensive list of what pokemon can be countered with each offensive move, rather than a list of the best move to handle Pokemon X, Pokemon Y, or Pokemon Z. That way we try to regulate redundant coverage to truly make CAP10 a customizable, but niche, pokemon.

TL; DR: Everyone wants CAP10 to be a threat in some form. The concern with Ice Beam is that, rather than tailoring CAP10 to cover your team's weakness, you'll be tailoring your team to cover for CAP10's weakness.

so let me get this straight. with a moveset of beambolt and surf this will be able to counter 60% or more of the metagame.
we must seriously be underestimating starmie. i mean, starmie has all those moves, and better offensive stats. why wouldn't i want to use starmie on every single team if it is that powerful....

 

[SinisterSamurai]

I'm not saying it's an accurate claim, but I'm not saying it's inaccurate claim, either. I'm simply trying to articulate the general concern as I read it, and trying to suggest the most effective way to lay the concern to rest.

 

[Zaq]

so let me get this straight. with a moveset of beambolt and surf this will be able to counter 60% or more of the metagame.
we must seriously be underestimating starmie. i mean, starmie has all those moves, and better offensive stats. why wouldn't i want to use starmie on every single team if it is that powerful....

Just because we can cover 60% of the metagame with those three moves on Starmie doesn't make Starmie better than CAP10. The last move on that set with Starmie is usually psychic, just for a second stab, or some status move. With CAP10's potential movepool you can run those three to cover the first 60%, and then pick one other move to cover the last 40%. Which is, well, too much. Also, part of the boltbeam is STAB for CAP10, and neither part is STAB for Starmie.

Devil's advocate aside, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now, if you give CAP10 boltbeam it starts to look a lot like Starmie.

 

[familyguyman]

Just because we can cover 60% of the metagame with those three moves on Starmie doesn't make Starmie better than CAP10. The last move on that set with Starmie is usually psychic, just for a second stab, or some status move. With CAP10's potential movepool you can run those three to cover the first 60%, and then pick one other move to cover the last 40%. Which is, well, too much. Also, part of the boltbeam is STAB for CAP10, and neither part is STAB for Starmie.

Devil's advocate aside, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now, if you give CAP10 boltbeam it starts to look a lot like Starmie.

Huh? Last I checked, Starmie usually runs 2 of Recover/Ice Beam/Grass Knot with Surf and Thunderbolt, not Psychic or a Status move...

But, CAP10 is much more bulky than Starmie and with Magic Guard, it's even more durable. Plus it has better offensive typing (STAB on Thunderbolt) and equal, if not better, defensive typing.

 

[ferron]

Just because we can cover 60% of the metagame with those three moves on Starmie doesn't make Starmie better than CAP10. The last move on that set with Starmie is usually psychic, just for a second stab, or some status move. With CAP10's potential movepool you can run those three to cover the first 60%, and then pick one other move to cover the last 40%. Which is, well, too much. Also, part of the boltbeam is STAB for CAP10, and neither part is STAB for Starmie.

Devil's advocate aside, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now, if you give CAP10 boltbeam it starts to look a lot like Starmie.

and here i thought i was laying the sarcasm on rather thick...

look, CaP 10 is more-or-less the illegitimate child of starmie and lanturn, but neither of them have shown the boltbeam+surf combo to be overpowered, so why worry about it now?

let us just move on from this topic and discuss something else.

........

i personally would prefer this poke to not have pursuit as the dark move we give it, as it seem much more like a revenge killing move. i see punishment or payback to be far more viable for countering, with each having different benefits.

 

[goinGreen]

I believe there are three things that put CAP10 apart from the various bolt-beam users, specifically, Starmie.

1: CAP10's stats differ. It has the potential to go physical or special. The ability to do waterfall/ice punch/thunder punch separates CAP10 from Starmie and other bolt-beam users, as well as its other moves. Starmie is also more effective if going for raw power, as CAP10's stats are good enough, but not excellent, for attacking.

2: Starmie's typing and defenses make it especially weak against life-orbed Sucker Punches. CAP10 doesn't have that problem, putting it at an advantage over Starmie.

3: CAP10's purpose is to be a utility counter. BoltBeam is not necessarily a good counter to everything, nor is it unique, defeating the purpose of CAP10. BoltBeam could be used, but there are so many more special attacks (or physical attacks) that could be used with it, separating it from other bolt-beam users.
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Regarding Pursuit and other Dark-type moves, I do agree. A revenge-killer is not a counter. Punishment works more for me than Payback, since it's more "counter" oriented as apposed to simple raw power. Punishment would be used against stat-raising abusers, and would help for Uber usage. Payback would be less effective, and less necessary. Night Slash could work, considering it has slashing appendages and the glow associated with the shrimp would likely only be seen at night.
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[SJCrew]

A lot of these arguments against Volt Tackle are terrible. "Pikachu-exclusive" has absolutely nothing to do with the OU metagame and should ultimately be disregarded.

What I'm looking at right now is the fact that it counters Suicune handily, regardless of how many CMs it has under its belt. This is a good idea. Plus, considering the fact that it has a miserable 84 base attack, there's absolutely no way this will become threatening to OU, it'll just do exactly the same thing its other STAB Electric do, except it helps counter a Pokemon literally every other OU has immense trouble with. Once Suicune gets a CM under its belt, CAP can't do shit.

I am STRONGLY in support of CAP10 getting Volt Tackle because the choice of having it is just like asking "do you want to counter Suicune or not". Um, yes? I honestly don't see how Volt Tackle is in any way controversial besides that.

Watch out for that base 84 attack with 120 STAB and no boosting moves, you might want to run something to counter it!

Same thing for Hydro Pump and the like. CAP does not need our help making itself weaker, as the stats already dictate it's not going to be a sweeper or hurt anything without a super effective hit. Most of OUs offensive threats are fairly bulky as it is, and any moves that help CAP counter sweepers better should be allowed.

 

[Naxte]

By this logic you'd be willing to advocate Sacred Fire or Aeroblast on a Pokemon other than Ho-Oh / Lugia (respectively).

If it actually helped a Pokemon to fulfill its concept and wouldn't be broken on it, then yeah, I would argue such a thing, as that's what's important. Whether a move is a signature move or not doesn't matter at all--what matters is just whether the move is actually a good choice or not, especially since this is hardly a new concept to CAP--from what I can recall, during Kitsunoh, there was some serious discussion of potentially giving it Shadow Force, but didn't mostly because we came up with ShadowStrike, which was a better option.

And that is another thing: we've given prior CAPs their own signature moves and abilities. If we can do that, I see no problem with giving them other Pokemon's signature moves, especially since Nintendo themselves doesn't really seem to have a problem with that concept (ex. Giving Pokemon like Darkrai and Arcues other Pokemon's signature moves in events).

Yes, Suicune counters it, but the purpose of CAP-10 is to counter offensive threats.

...No, I don't believe it is, since that's not mentioned anywhere in the concept (quite the opposite in fact). The first part of the concept quite clearly states "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon...". It doesn't mention the words "offensive threats at all", nor "defensive threats", nor the word "threat" at all. On the contrary, it mentions CAP10 being able to handle practically any threat. Any doesn't mean just offensive, or defensive, or whatever: it means that, regardless of what the opponent is, CAP10 should be able to be customized to be able to handle it, regardless of whether it's offensive, defensive, or whatever.

And if you're referring to the "It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama" portion of the justification, I think that's pretty clearly just saying that versatile offensive Pokemon have the perception of being broken, whereas people don't have this perception of versatile defensive Pokemon. It really doesn't seem to have anything to do with CAP10's targets though.

But in any case, the concept itself quite clearly states that CAP10 is a Pokemon that should be able to be customized to handle practically any opponent, so I'm not sure where this notion of how CAP10 should only focus on offensive threats and just let itself be countered by defensive threats became so popular, as it seems quite contrary to the wording of the concept to me. Thus, I see no reason why we should just let CAP10 be countered by stuff like Suicune. As a result of this, if Volt Tackle actually doesn't seem to be a broken option (which, if it was made an option only in combination with Trace, it doesn't seem to be to me, as the recoil from it would let CAP10 be easily revenge killed), and it gives CAP10 an option for dealing with Pokemon like Suicune, then I see no reason for it to be disallowed.

 

[Fuzznip]

I had mixed feelings about Volt Tackle, but now I know my decision. Volt Tackle doesn't become less viable even if it were to be banned if you were to use it on Magic Guard CAP 10. There are still several issues that need to be brought up that can still make Volt Tackle a threatening offensive move.

Volt Tackle is only going to be allowed on CAP 10 that use Trace, as it will most likely be banned on CAP 10 that use Magic Guard. However, it is highly likely that Trace CAP 10 can copy an opposing CAP 10's Magic Guard, which means that you still get that threatening Magic Guard = no recoil from Volt Tackle and Life Orb issue. CAP 10 will be common in the OU metagame, so it really isn't difficult to copy Magic Guard from ones that use it. Now, you can say that not all CAP 10 will use Magic Guard; however, if CAP 10 is not using Volt Tackle, Magic Guard is ultimately better than Trace when it comes to countering a variety of threats. Magic Guard will definitely be more common than Trace on non-Volt Tackle CAP 10. Another thing is that you can say Trace + Volt Tackle CAP 10 is basically a counter to Magic Guard CAP 10. I don't know if we want our CAP to potentially counter itself, so that needs to be discussed too.

My second point of Volt Tackle being still threatening on Trace CAP 10 is because of CAP 10's gargantuan HP. The recoil CAP 10 will take from Volt Tackle is only 1/3 of the damage it deals. Now, because of CAP 10's HP, it will take minimal recoil damage from many, many threats in the OU metagame. Let me provide you with some examples.

With no investment at all, CAP 10 sits at 443 HP. Now, lets take a look at some of the threats CAP 10 will use Volt Tackle against and we will see how much average percent damage it will actually take in the process. I will assume that we are using max Attack with a Jolly nature, without using a Life Orb.

248 HP / 0 Def Adamant Scizor: 159 (46%) damage = 53 (11%) recoil.
252 HP / 0 Def Adamant Metagross: 126 (35%) damage = 42 (9%) recoil.
0 HP / 0 Def Adamant Gyarados: 331 (100%) damage = 110 (24%) recoil.
0 HP / 0 Def Adamant Salamence (w/o Intimidate): 190 (57%) damage = 63 (14%) recoil.
24 HP / 252 Def Calm Blissey: 313 (48%) damage = 104 (23%) recoil.
188 HP / 240 Def Bold Vaporeon: 312 (69%) damage = 104 (23%) recoil.
252 HP / 252 Def Bold Suicune: 206 (51%) damage = 68 (15%) recoil.
252 HP / 176 Def Impish Skarmory: 188 (56%) damage = 62 (13%) recoil.

I can go on and on. As you can see, CAP 10 barely takes any recoil from a lot of the threats in the OU metagame. Only Pokemon that have a huge HP stat, such as Vaporeon and Blissey, will only cause CAP 10 to take upwards of 20% damage. Also, do note that you can use Leftovers with this, as CAP 10 is not even using Life Orb with those calculations. So, take off 6% from each of those calculations and you get an even smaller number. Trace does not make Volt Tackle less viable whatsoever. It will still hit like a truck, and it will take pathetic recoil back.

Finally, I will make my argument towards Volt Tackle's banning. A standard bulky RestTalk set will be viable and dangerous. All CAP 10 needs is a few Attack EVs to score some 3HKOes it needs against some threats, taking next to no recoil damage, and the rest can be invested into its defenses to take the hits it needs to. So really, Volt Tackle provides CAP 10 with a viable, threatening offensive RestTalk set. Also, should CAP 10 get recovery moves, Volt Tackle will be even more dangerous and will walk the line of being broken.

I am against Volt Tackle from being on CAP 10's movepool. It is ridiculous.

 

[familyguyman]

I still feel Volt Tackle should be legitimate. Yes, it's a very strong move but if we limit it to Trace only, then that gives some incentive to use Trace instead of sticking to Magic Guard only, which is nice.

Furthermore, what viable offensive moves can we use with Volt Tackle? Waterfall? Ice Punch? If you aren't using LO due to no Magic Guard, you are left with a low base moves and low attack.

The viability of going physical itself, to me, rests solely on Volt Tackle. Without it, CAP10 would like go almost pure special with Magic Guard all the time.

Really, is an LO-less Volt Tackle that much more threatening than an LO Thunderbolt with Magic Guard?


Also, CAP10 should be able to counter itself if we tailor it to and Trace + Volt Tackle can certainly do so against Magic Guard CAP10, which is a very cool dynamic.

 

[Dominion]

@Darksly

I see your point against Kingdra

But your whining about Lucario just sounds as if you have no counter arguement so your just saying a lot of words and using the "psshh who would get set up like that anyway?" If thats the case, who in their right mind would leave Heatran in on CAP10 knowing either a Surf/Earthquake/Waterfall was on the way? It's not even an arguement so don't even try to use it. Why would luke stay in after the SD if he sees CAP10 switching in if CAP10 was given Earthquake? See? It's all theory. We can go back and forth with even more crazy examples but can we keep it simple?
--
I have an interesting question. If Volt Tackle was allowed on CAP10, who would simply not use Earthquake because Volt Tackle has better damage and has only 20 less base power against Earthquake's SE targets? very few actually. Why?! you ask? Because Volt Tackle's recoil isn't worth the massive power. But Cap10 has Magic Guard!

Volt Tackle
Waterfall
??
??
--instead of--
Earthquake
Thunder Punch
Waterfall
--

By allowing Volt Tackle, we've limited Earthquake's use. Very, very few pokemon in OU are x4 weak to ground. Heatran is one, but, using Darksly's logic, who would switch Heatran into CAP10 anyway? Magnezone and Electivire aren't fun for CAP10 but then again CAP10 isn't exactly threatened by Magnezone (Choice Spec's HP Grass does 85.8% at the Very Best, meaning, on non HP or Special Defense investment in CAP10) and Electivire's omnipresent Earthquake scares CAP10 away nearly all the time (Darksly's logic). So what's Earthquake's amazing coverage for besides Metagross? Who is hit Harder by a Special varient anyway. Thats like giving Alakazam Fire Punch because it hits Skarmory for Super Effective even though Focus Blast would do more anyway.

So, in short, Volt Tackle provides CAP10 with a powerful physical move that it cannot abuse without being a Magic Guard variety

Volt Tackle fits our concept of "being able to handle a large amount of threats but few at a time". With Earthquake, you can slap it on nearly any varient of CAP10 due to it's reliability but Volt Tackle cannot be used without being tailored specifically to use it correctly or else you get punished by either the Recoil or the lack of coverage. So we've helped quell our fear of this CAP using it's massive nuetral coverage over it's original intent.

I'm sure a lot of people are thinking "But now CAP10 has 2 extra slots for other Attacks" Well, for one, We don't know this CAP's approved support/defensive ability list, second, this CAP would actually have weaknesses (oh no?! not weaknesses!) due to not having the almighty Earthquake. They are:
1. Electivire,
2. the rare 999 Speed Choice Specs Magnezone that switches in on CAP10 and uses HP Grass twice before you can switch out.
3. Metagross (Not even!) who still can't 1HKO with EQ even if you're offensively built and he has Choice Band. You'd have to have Stealth Rock damage and he'd have to get lucky (81.7% - 96.6%).

Volt Tackle is not overpowered but Earthquake isn't either. My only concern with Earthquake is that it goes against everything we want for this CAP. Having massive nuetral coverage is fine. But having massive neutral coverage along with massive Super Effective capability as within 4 moves or less is madness. Remember, CAP10 has to be able to counter a broad seletion of pokemon but not all at once.

 

[DarkSlay]

Hey guys. This is an update post on my part, pretty much highlighting any new moves that have been brought up, haven't been discussed by me, or are being argued about since my first initial post with my calculations.

Volt Tackle: This seems to be getting a lot of steam behind it recently. I'm not going to be the guy that shoots it down due to power at all (I'm not 100% against it). Therefore, I'm going to go neutral in the way I handle talking about this. We should first run some calculations in order to determine what exactly it will do to expected targets as compared to similar moves, and what else will be affected by it outside of what it intends to ounter. Suicune seems to be the first and main target, so we'll run calcs on it. Here's some calculations. Note that this is 252 Atk/252 Spe with a Neutral nature for CAP10 for offensive calculations, and the same for Defensive:

Volt Tackle vs. Crocune: 61.4% - 72.8% (2HKO)
Volt Tackle vs. Offensive Suicune: 98.8% - 116.4% (OHKO)
Volt Tackle vs. SubCune: 84.9% - 100% (OHKO most of the time after SR)
Volt Tackle vs. CMShuffle/Sleep Talk: 61.4% - 72.8% (2HKO)

ThunderPunch vs. Crocune: 38.6% - 46% (3HKO on average)
ThunderPunch vs. Offensive Suicune: 62% - 73.7% (2HKO)
ThunderPunch vs. SubCune: 53.3% - 63.3% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
ThunderPunch vs. vs. CMShuffle/Sleep Talk: (3HKO on average)

+2 Surf vs. CAP10 (CroCune): 27.1% - 31.8% (4HKO)
+4 Surf vs. CAP10 (CroCune): 40.6% - 47.9% (3HKO)
+1 HP Electric vs. CAP10 (Offensive): 33.4% - 39.5% (3HKO)
+2 HP Electric vs. CAP10 (Offensive): 44.7% - 52.8% (potential 3HKO)
What we've gotten from the calculations: Volt Tackle is never necessary to take out the standard sets of Suicune, it seems. The only set in which CAP10 does not immediately beat Suicune with ThunderPunch is Crocune and CMShuffle (as Sleep Talk doesn't run CM). CroCune does little offensively to CAP10. If CAP10 switches in on a Calm Mind, the most Suicune can boost to is +2 before it has to Rest. Then, since CAP10 out-speeds it, it can actually 3HKO it before it wakes up. Offensive should only get in one Calm Mind before it attacks, which makes even HP Grass unable to OHKO. CAP10 out-speeds Suicune, remember. Volt Tackle is not necessary to beat Suicune, who is NOT a counter to CAP10 in any shape or form. Volt Tackle only makes killing Suicune faster, which may seem too powerful to some, but not to others.

Why Volt Tackle Might Be Broken:

Volt Tackle vs. WishBliss: 57.2% - 67.6% (2HKO)
Volt Tackle vs. Snorlax: 45.5% - 53.7% (2HKO after SR most of the time)

These two calculations are pretty much the only thing that makes Volt Tackle completely broken in the sense of damage output. These calculations mean CAP10 can deal with the walls switching into it just by using its STAB move, and not using its third or fourth move slot specifically for these threats. This really isn't wanted at all, seeing as though we want to make CAP10 "forced" to use its move pool to counter the specific threats it wants to counter. Quite frankly, giving it Volt Tackle kills all the Flying/Water types that ThunderPunch can, but also adds walls like Blissey and Snorlax, which is more or less eliminating into the necessity to use up a slot for a Fighting move.

While giving Trace CAP10 Volt Tackle seems like a great idea, remember that CAP10 can at the very least get Rest, if we don't give it any other recovery move in the Support move set thread. Does Trace CAP10 have the ability to abuse this combo, especially Rest Talk? This should be discussed.

To Fear My Shuckle, the entire second argument applies to Crabhammer as well, plus you can add in Tyranitar.

Hydro Pump: Just wanted to reiterate my TL;DR version of Hydro Pump's damage output, as many people seem to have not seen it: Hydro Pump only scores OHKO's on Weavile and Porygon-Z and 2HKO's on Machamp and Swampert that Surf cannot. The first two should be handled better by the Physical set anyway, and the latter two are not wanted, since Psychic and HP Grass are figured to be used. Surf does virtually the same damage output (OHKO's and 2HKO's) that Hydro Pump does. Hydro Pump's only positives will make it beat certain threats we do not want it to anyway. If you want the full skinny on Hydro Pump, check out my initial post and the Counters discussion thread. As to the "Water Gun" argument, that point is invalid, as it is important to discuss competitive-only moves at this time. Hydro Pump and Surf fit into that category. If a competitive move seems unnecessary, what purpose will it serve on CAP10? None. This is where our decision should lie.

The Dragon Moves: I'm just going by the facts on this one. Draco Meteor gives CAP10 its only way to deal with Kingdra without forcing another teammate to finish it off. Dragon Pulse does not. Not even Modest after SR damage. Giving CAP10 Dragon Pulse, doing 75% damage, and dying is not countering or "dealing with" Kingdra. Arguments including that another Pokemon can come in and finish off Kingdra are irrelevant, as CAP10 should deal with the threats it wants to handle on its own. We don't want Kingdra to go completely unchecked against CAP10 since it's a Dragon Dance user, something that CAP10 was originally designed to counter in the first place. Outrage is in the same boat as Draco Meteor (OHKO after SR), but I feel a -2 SpA drop is more dangerous than just letting CAP10 go two or three turns of a Max Attack Outrage, even if it's a Steel switch-in. Draco Meteor OR Outrage should be accepted, not both, with a precedence on Meteor.

Payback/Crunch/Dark Pulse: Normally, I would argue that Ice Punch hits for a 2HKO on Latias. However, Payback is extremely situational, only having to deal with Latias and Starmie, with Starmie being better handled by Electric attacks anyway. It also hits for a much more solid 2HKO on Latias, with even a really small chance of a OHKO after Rocks. This is pretty important, seeing as how Latias is such an important Offensive threat. Crunch, however, seems to be iffy. Payback is a better option for Latias, so she's out of the discussion. Rotom-A is better handled by the Special CAP10, scoring the same 2HKO's with Surf as Crunch. Giving both the Physical AND Special versions of CAP10 a way to deal with Rotom may be going overboard, but that's just my opinion. Crunch also does little to nothing against Dusknoir (4HKO after Leftovers), meaning Dusknoir will still kick the crap out of you with Pain Split + EQ. Cresselia is 5HKO'd after Leftovers. What is Crunch really doing beneficial then? Dark Pulse is in a similar boat as Crunch, however, it actually has a much better damage output. It's able to 3HKO Dusknoir (potential 2HKO if SR is down, and guaranteed with SR + 1 layer of Spikes), 4HKO Cresselia, and a better 2HKO on Standard Rotom-C. Not much better, but I feel Dark Pulse is actually a nice complement to Payback. Yes on Payback, weak yes on Dark Pulse, and no to Crunch.

Earth Power: It's too weak to hit some of the Pokemon Earthquake was intended to hit, like Jolteon, so I'll leave that out of my decision. Metagross (Lead) is 2HKO'd by Max Jolly Earthquake with SR over 75% of the time (most likely more, but I'm guesstimating here). I don't see the need there. Same with Jirachi, as this point will only be valid if people start running 252 Bold. Something also to consider: it OHKO's Lucario, something that no Special attack can do currently. Do we want Physical CAP10 AND Special CAP10 to be able to check Lucario? I'm not saying "no", but it's definitely something to think about. We need to discuss the benefits/negatives of this move further before any decision is made. So far, it seems superfluous considering EQ's presence.

Aqua Jet/Ice Shard: Here's the problem with these two moves. They aren't overpowered (except possibly in the case of Latias, preventing her from scoring two hits on CAP10), so that's not the issue. The issue is that with the way the move set is running right now, adding a Priority move to CAP10 might give it some sort of reasoning to be in the Lead position. Payback + Priority beats Azelf. Aero is 2HKO'd as well. In fact, CAP10 will pretty much beat all leads if it wanted to, except for Swampert and Machamp. Do we want CAP10 to go in this direction? I personally think not. I do not support these two moves for this very reason. Calling CAP10 a "lead counter" is a bit of a stretch as well, as it's not being used to beat certain Pokemon, but rather a wide range of Leads.

 

[familyguyman]

DrkSlay, are those calcs with or without Life Orb?

 

[Deck Knight]

Hmmm....

If Dark Pulse is too good against Rotom-A, Dusknoir, and a bunch of other defensive threats, I don't really support it. Crunch does have that nice Defense lowering chance with it, but since it doesn't seem too effective against defensive threats (while it can do reasonable damage to Latias and prepare it for a Pursuit user to finish it), Crunch has my support.

Payback has a few niche uses that we want, but ultimately I feel its the same offensive potential as Crunch given the defense down. This makes Serene Grace a very desirable ability to steal in conjunction with Waterfall. Add in Earthquake and you can significantly damage Jirachi's reputation for good team support. So I support Crunch and Payback, but oppose Dark Pulse. In this vein, I also support Sucker Punch.

I underestimated Volt Tackle's power. Definitely oppose it now. As long as Thunderpunch gets the 3HKO on Cune I don't think it's necessary.

Earth Power retains my support. Lucario is a huge threat and definitely on our list. So is Metagross. Running it instead of Earthquake for synergistic reasons does a good deal to help out against these threats, while CMJirachi and Bronzong can still handle it. Trace handles Jolteon all by itself.

I'm not too concerned about CAP10 becoming a lead counter. Not only can Empoleon do everything CAP10 can do (effectively), Empoleon also sets up SR. I don't know if CAP10 is going to get SR, but I won't be arguing for it. Beating suicide leads isn't really an issue, they are intended to set up SR and be defeated. KOing such a lead isn't "beating" if they have successfully set up their strategy (be it SR, Weather, Memento, whatever.) Hazards are a discussion for non-attacking moves, but otherwise there are already a few leads in the mold of Power Attack + Priority 2HKO, and none of them are in the top ranks.

 

[DarkSlay]

Sorry for the double post, if this happens. I'm responding to a direct response to myself. Also, Dominion, do not mistake my responses as a threat or in negative terms. This is just more or less discussion than argument.

@Drkslay (no big deal, just happens all the time XD)

I see your point against Kingdra

But your whining about Lucario just sounds as if you have no counter argument so your just saying a lot of words and using the "psshh who would get set up like that anyway?" If thats the case, who in their right mind would leave Heatran in on CAP10 knowing either a Surf/Earthquake/Waterfall was on the way? It's not even an argument so don't even try to use it. Why would luke stay in after the SD if he sees CAP10 switching in if CAP10 was given Earthquake? See? It's all theory. We can go back and forth with even more crazy examples but can we keep it simple?

I'm trying to understand this paragraph, sorry. Are you implying that Heatran can do anything to CAP10 in the first place? Heatran is a weak example, to be honest. Let's be real here. My argument against Lucario was that Lucario wouldn't switch into any CAP10, as any of its STAB moves would 2HKO. Then, it would beat CAP10. If you can give me an example of when Lucario is 100% safe to switch into CAP and CAP10 doesn't lose without EQ, by all means. And the situation you just posted about Lucario means its countered. If Lucario switches out, it's properly dealt with. This is primarily because CAP10 has access to Earthquake, a move that can OHKO. Your opponent won't risk the chance. And if we kept it simple, your Lucario argument would still be null and void about switching in, thanks to its STABs. :/

--
I have an interesting question. If Volt Tackle was allowed on CAP10, who would simply not use Earthquake because Volt Tackle has better damage and has only 20 less base power against Earthquake's SE targets? very few actually. Why?! you ask? Because Volt Tackle's recoil isn't worth the massive power. But Cap10 has Magic Guard!

Volt Tackle
Waterfall
??
??
--instead of--
Earthquake
Thunder Punch
Waterfall
--

By allowing Volt Tackle, we've limited Earthquake's use.

Terrible, terrible logic, to be honest (unless you're being sarcastic). So we should power up one of CAP10's STAB moves in an attempt to reduce the need for a relatively situational move? That would essentially make CAP10 counter a wider range of threats rather than being forced to choose what it wants to counter. This only aids it in being a wide counter, and possibly a wallbreaker. Not a Utility Counter. To respond to your own statement of restating the direction of CAP10, you're actually moving away from it by adding Volt Tackle.

Very, very few pokemon in OU are x4 weak to ground. Heatran is one, but, using Drkslay's logic, who would switch Heatran into CAP10 anyway? Magnezone and Electivire aren't fun for CAP10 but then again CAP10 isn't exactly threatened by Magnezone (Choice Spec's HP Grass does 85.8% at the Very Best, meaning, on non HP or Special Defense investment in CAP10) and Electivire's omnipresent Earthquake scares CAP10 away nearly all the time (Drkslay's logic). So what's Earthquake's amazing coverage for besides Metagross? Who is hit Harder by a Special varient anyway. Thats like giving Alakazam Fire Punch because it hits Skarmory for Super Effective even though Focus Blast would do more anyway.

Do not be condescending with me. If people want to know my logic, they can read my very own posts or ask me. Thank you.

Once again, I've been through this a hundred times. Earthquake is for: Jolteon, Magnezone, Electivire, and Lucario. It is also a way to deal with Metagross and Jirachi. That's about it. That's not "amazing coverage", first off. If you want amazing coverage, see your own argument on Volt Tackle. Like I said earlier, ScarfZone is the bigger threat, being able to 2HKO with TBolt (Trace)/HP Grass while being faster. As for SpecsZone, you once again assumed that Magnezone switches in on full health CAP10, and not the other way around. Once again, why would this happen?

If you want, we can assume that no Pokemon will adapt to take on CAP10. That's pretty much what you're doing. And my entire examples don't even include these possibilities, but actual sets that are used

So, in short, Volt Tackle provides CAP10 with a powerful physical move that it cannot abuse without being a Magic Guard variety

Volt Tackle fits our concept of "being able to handle a large amount of threats but few at a time". With Earthquake, you can slap it on nearly any varient of CAP10 due to it's reliability but Volt Tackle cannot be used without being tailored specifically to use it correctly or else you get punished by either the Recoil or the lack of coverage. So we've helped quell our fear of this CAP using it's massive neutral coverage over it's original intent.

Lack of coverage? Even you stated that it hits more Pokemon than Earthquake for greater damage. Please, do not contradict yourself.

I'm sure a lot of people are thinking "But now CAP10 has 2 extra slots for other Attacks" Well, for one, We don't know this CAP's approved support/defensive ability list, second, this CAP would actually have weaknesses (oh no?! not weaknesses!) due to not having the almighty Earthquake. They are:
1. Electivire,
2. the rare 999 Speed Choice Specs Magnezone that switches in on CAP10 and uses HP Grass twice before you can switch out.

Funny. I didn't know that Choice Scarf Magnezone can't be considered. XD

These two are obvious insults. I'm glad you (somewhat) read my posts, but do not over exaggerate them. Thanks! :D

If you want to talk about weaknesses and counters, I suggest looking at threats that counter CAP10 already. I put up a list of around 14 a few pages back or so. There is no need to add more, thank you very much.

3. Metagross (Not even!) who still can't 1HKO with EQ even if you're offensively built and he has Choice Band. You'd have to have Stealth Rock damage and he'd have to get lucky (81.7% - 96.6%).

What the...Choice Band Metagross? Really? That's the best example you're using? Besides that point other Metagross all 2HKO with Earthquake, and Earthquake isn't the only way to deal with Metagross, albeit it's a pretty safe way.

You're also forgetting a few to the list.

4. Jolteon.
5. Lucario.
6. Jirachi.

Volt Tackle is not overpowered but Earthquake isn't either. My only concern with Earthquake is that it goes against everything we want for this CAP. Having massive neutral coverage is fine. But having massive neutral coverage along with massive Super Effective capability as within 4 moves or less is madness. Remember, CAP10 has to be able to counter a broad selection of pokemon but not all at once.

Using a situational move to beat a select few amount of Pokemon (some of which are handled the same, if not better, with other attacks)...goes against the concept? This seems wrong, sorry.

If you want me to respond next time, please, no condescending. I was pretty polite to you in my initial response to you.

@ familyguy: Yes, both the Volt Tackle and TPunch numbers are with LO. I'm assuming Trace with VT, though. EDIT: Like I said in my earlier post, we must consider whether Trace CAP10 with VT can abuse healing moves, like Trace. And the bigger point was to show that TPunch does sufficient damage to Suicune as it is.

 

[familyguyman]

Sorry for the double post, if this happens. I'm responding to a direct response to myself. Also, Dominion, do not mistake my responses as a threat or in negative terms. This is just more or less discussion than argument.



If you want me to respond next time, please, no condescending. I was pretty polite to you in my initial response to you.

@ familyguy: Yes, both the Volt Tackle and TPunch numbers are with LO. I'm assuming Trace with VT, though.

Hmm, I question the feasibility of Volt Tackle and LO if there's no Magic Guard. OHKOing Suicune would yield ~150 damage in recoil, that's like 33%, add in Stealth Rock and it would cost a pretty penny to actually be as powerful as the numbers show.

 

[Anti-H]

On the pending list, I seen no reason to deny CAP10 priority. Worrying about a "lead counter" is odd, since if CAP10 is going to force switches by his very nature, and making suicide leads shook with priority is a moot point(as they are meant to SR and die). Giving those moves at the expense of harder hitting BoltBeamSuperpower shouldn't be a worry, as he won't get Technician unless Scizor or Top switches in; so any possible priority sweep would be an outside chance at best with his lowish attack stats. Yes to Ice Shard/Sucker Punch.

On the Dark moves, I like Payback and Dark Pulse for the reasons stated by DrkSlay: the former gets the outside OHKO on Latias, and the latter allows for some surprise takedowns of bulky Ghost/Psychic types that would normally give CAP10 a whole mess of problems.

No to Volt Tackle. It's unnecessary if Thunderpunch/TBolt can get the job done on Suicune and friends. If the generic three move loadout already can check those sets, then there's no reason to give it something (arguably) better.

Yes to Draco Meteor and/or Outrage. DD Kingdra is a very dangerous thing, both in and out of the rain. A utility counter set up to counter Kingdra should not do 3/4 damage at best and then die. That is not a counter, that is a suicide. Getting a Dragon move of that calibur allows it a "gotcha!" move in the 4th slot against Dragon types, who are quite popular and powerful sweepers/pivots. That seems like a logical thing for a utility counter to do.

On that note, nothing in the OP says it had to be a purely offensive counter. We're testing defensive versatility, and defensive versatility also involves being able to survive a stall out. If that fourth move makes it a semi-capable wallbreaker at the expense of it's ability to counter some offensive threats in, say, the Defensive set, then that shouldn't be a cause to scream ZOMG broken. With the movepool it needs, there's no real reason to say that some enterprising builder couldn't make a wallbreaker out of it.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Everyone keep mentioning Draco Meteor and Outrage but what about Dragon Pulse or Dragon Claw? Shouldn't those moves be allowed as well since it still handles those pesky Dragon type move, although an Ice move like Ice Beam/Ice Punch would handle them better.

 

[beej]

Back. I really like how this thread is going, it's one of the best discussion threads that I've seen this whole CAP IMO. I see no reason to immediately close it considering how well it's going and the fact that it seems to be staying relatively fresh, so you'll have at least another two days to discuss things unless this changes drastically by the end of tomorrow.

On the subject of disallowing Ice Beam/Blizzard - I'm extremely hesitant to do this. The simple fact of the matter is that Ice Beam doesn't really provide you with anything other than coverage on Grass-types and Dragon-types at the same time. It should be noted that Latias also takes super effective damage from Bug, so that's out the window too. Deck Knight mentioned that it covers Ground, but you have STAB on Water and the fact that it provides you with an opportunity to hit it while locked in on a contrived choice set doesn't seem like much of an argument. I understand why one might be inclined to exclude it from their movepool submission, considering that one might not want to allow that kind of versatility in terms of hitting two types at once, but to disallow people from making movepools with Ice Beam is dubious. To summarize, unless one can prove to me that allowing people to make movepool submissions with Ice Beam is a dangerous and harmful thing to be doing, then I will allow them to do it. If that's your goal, go for it.

I would also appreciate more discussion of Overheat. I have heard the arguments against it, but I've heard very limited arguments for it, and the ones that I've heard were pretty interesting. It should be noted that Overheat provides a very reliable option against Scizor, Lucario and Metagross, but unless you run a very offensive version of CAP10, Overheat doesn't even 3HKO specially defensive Bronzong along with the drops, while Bronzong can easily take the time to do something like set up the screens and switch to a setup Pokemon. Speaking of setup Pokemon, it's also important to remember that Overheat weakens the rest of your special moves, including Surf and Thunderbolt, which leaves you even more susceptible to other threats. Therefore, I'm very reluctant to outright ban Overheat and I think it should remain controversial unless there is more discussion on the matter.

Also banning Aqua Jet. To put it really simply, I don't want to facilitate an anti-lead set. You can argue with this if you want, and I will hear you out, but this is my position at the moment. The other priority moves are fine.

I've updated the OP again. There are a lot of things still in pending, and it would be great if you were to discuss them. You can also feel free to argue with everything I've presented here, or what's already been assigned to any of the categories. So...yeah.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I can understand the hesitance to nix Ice Beam/Blizzard and will understand if it left as is.
That said I sincerely hope it is not left as is so I will try to put the reasoning for disallowing it out there as plainly as I can and then move on.


Beej is correct in that the only types that Ice Beam hits for SE damage that our STABs don't are Grass and Dragon. It also gets crossover SE coverage on Ground and Flying and adds Zapdos who doesn't take SE from our STAB moves. Regardless the list of OU pokemon who we gain coverage on looks like this: Breloom, Celebi, Roserade, Dragonite, Salamence, Flygon, Latias, Zapdos, (Gliscor*); 8-9 very common pokemon covered with Ice Beam that weren't with STAB. Each of these pokemon can be handled without Ice Beam; using Bug for Celebi, Roserade, and Latias, HP flying or Psychic for Breloom, Dragon for the Dragon types (or HP Ice), and Rock for Zapdos. Therefore removing Ice Beam does not keep us from potentially countering any of these pokemon, it only forces specificity which fits the concept IMO.


Bug (5) adds only Celebi, Roserade, Latias, Azelf, and Weavile to our STAB coverage.
Dragon (4) obviously only adds the four dragons.
Rock (4) only nets Salamence, Dragonite, Weavile, and Zapdos
Flying (5) adds Roserade, Heracross, Machamp, Celebi, and Breloom
Psychic (4) adds Machamp, Breloom, Gengar, and Roserade.


Each of these attack types only adds SE coverage on 4-5 pokemon including rarities like Heracross and Weavile not to mention Psychic/Flying/Bug are awful attacking types outside of those pokemon. Ice Beam adds 8-9, all of which are common OU pokemon.


In summary, Ice Beam will not make this pokemon broken but I feel it strays from the concept too far. If Ice Beam is allowed then there is rarely going to be the need to run any of these other attacks. With it removed 4mss really kicks in and forces us to pick our threats instead of shooting for blanket coverage. Starmie is not broken but it does get fantastic coverage with three moves. We should try to avoid that kind of coverage to achieve the concept.


I hope this makes sense. Please point out anything that I may have missed.

EDIT: You are right Gothic Togekiss. Roserade is indeed neutral to Bug. My point still stands though as there are other ways to deal with her. You are leaving off Zapdos from your list of things that Ice Beam catches but you were kind enough to add the BL Shaymin. I know that an extremely defensive Zapdos MAY still survive Ice Beam but the difference between HP Ice and Ice Beam against Zapdos is significant.

The last thing you said has me worried, "But it looks like CAP10 has already strayed too far from the original concept as majority of us are using offensive geared EV spreads and moveset for their argument, thus implying that people will most likely use it as a sweeper than anything else." Does this mean that you are disregarding the concept now because you feel it is too far gone? Because that is what it sounded like and if so then there is no reason for any of this as we are working toward different goals.

 

[Objection]

OK, this is definitely my last post in this thread, and I'm only doing it because of Beej's update.

Firstly, the way I see CAP10 is that the user should not just be able to select one non-STAB move and go "Right, that's pokemon X countered". The user should be forced to pick the better ability and best EV spread for countering that pokemon.

Now that Earthquake and Earth Power are used, if we continue to allow Ice Beam and Ice Punch, then all Fire-type moves should be disallowed.

It should be noted that Overheat provides a very reliable option against Scizor, Lucario and Metagross

CAP10 now has Earthquake and Earth Power for most Steel-types in the metagame. The only particular targets of Fire-type moves therefore are those whose greatest weakness is to the Fire-type: Scizor, Forretress and Bronzong.

With Flamethrower and Fire Blast disallowed, it is evident that CAP10 shouldn't have anything to do with Bronzong. If this is because Bronzong is a defensive threat and not an offensive one (and Beej, I recall you saying that CAP10's primary targets are meant to be offensive mons) then Forretress doesn't matter either. That leaves Scizor, and now I'm gonna quote my post regarding Hidden Power Fire vs. Scizor:

With no Special Attack EVs and a neutral nature, CAP10 has approximately 2.5% chance of OHKOing Scizor with HP Fire after SR damage. With 140 Special Attack EVs and a neutral nature, it's a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. With 192 Special Attack EVs and Modest nature, it's a guaranteed OHKO without SR.

Hidden Power Fire is strong enough for CAP10 with EV investment only. Stronger Fire-type moves are strong enough for CAP10 without EV investment. The former fits the concept far more, so Hidden Power should be CAP10's only option for a Fire-type move.

If, on the other hand, we disallow Ice Beam and Ice Punch, then CAP10 should have more Fire-type moves to compensate for the lack of coverage against Grass-types (at no point did we say that every Grass-type under the sun should be a hard counter to CAP10).

 

[Rhys29]

Aqua Jet/Ice Shard: Here's the problem with these two moves. They aren't overpowered (except possibly in the case of Latias, preventing her from scoring two hits on CAP10), so that's not the issue. The issue is that with the way the move set is running right now, adding a Priority move to CAP10 might give it some sort of reasoning to be in the Lead position. Payback + Priority beats Azelf. Aero is 2HKO'd as well. In fact, CAP10 will pretty much beat all leads if it wanted to, except for Swampert and Machamp. Do we want CAP10 to go in this direction? I personally think not. I do not support these two moves for this very reason. Calling CAP10 a "lead counter" is a bit of a stretch as well, as it's not being used to beat certain Pokemon, but rather a wide range of Leads.

I kind of like this idea. Some teams would like an anti-lead to bring down specific lead sets such as Azelf and Aerodactyl. And since almost all leads are somewhat offensive threats it somewhat pertains to the concept. However it doesn't like eating Explosion and Earthquake is pretty common place on many leads. Not to mention if you mix and match your set a few leads still do a decent job of bringing CAP10 down (spreads like Surf/Payback/Aqua Jet/Thunderbolt will have Swampert and possibly Metagross issues). I see your point against this but it only raises my support.

 

[Seizen]

Okay, I've been reading for a while, and I have deduced this from the topic:

1) Apparently, the Special moveset is much better than the Physical moveset, and therefore we need to remove all things which have potentially high neutral coverage.
2) Some people seem to need Hidden Power to do anything, so nothing will get done as then everything that is hit neutrally or poorly by whatever HP you're using becomes a check or better to CAP10.

Ice Beam: While I agree that BoltBeam would become very helpful, CAP 10 cannot sweep. It cannot sweep because we as a community do not want it to do so, which means if necessary we can remove moves like Calm Mind or Nasty Plot if you really hate it.

While Magic Guard Life Orb CAP 10 will gain excellent coverage with a SurfBoltBeam moveset, it would still be inferior to Starmie in terms of dealing damage. While the recoil is no longer apparent, it doesn't seem to matter much, as EQ or Wood Hammer still hits like a tank on your sweeping set. Why? Sweepers never run good defences, and therefore with our less-than-stellar defences to start with and then focusing on attacking, simple high-power SE moves will hurt like a bitch.
Paralyze, Sleep or Confusion would become much more useful to simply stop CAP10 from sweeping so well, and then all that needs to happen is a simple switch into something which takes a small amount of damage from CAP10's "Sweeper Set", such as Blissey or Snorlax.

Surf/ Thunderbolt: While this is mainly directed at Yllnath for their decision that Hidden Power is the way to go, it's message should be taken to every argument out there.

If we have decided that Special Sets are superior to Physical sets, we still have a few options. Surf and Thunderbolt are brilliant moves, but other users will be able to use them more effectively. After all, you're basically saying because a moveset can open up the option for sweeping, we should stop it from doing so. In that case, Hidden Power is the most sweeper-viable move in the game, due simply to the fact that it can be run with 70 Base Power and be any type in the game.
If CAP10 has fairly mediocre Special Attack, it cannot hit harder than Special Sweepers, so we have no reason to run CAP10 to have such job.

Elemental Punches: Disregarding whether or not it's good flavour to use them, the Elemental Punches are brilliant physical equivalents of the BoltBeamThrower combination. They hit hard enough to be viable without any particular weaknesses or strengths to make them less or more useful than they initially appear. It means we do not need to resort to using less or more powerful moves, such as Volt Tackle or Flare Blitz, or on the other hand Ice Shard or Spark.
There's also the case of the most useful "coverage" set for a Physical team which is perfectly acceptable being ElementalPunches 1/2/3 + Waterfall, which while having great coverage isn't countering anything in particular.

So to sum that up, I'm voting for the Elemental Punches and Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam. This is because we shouldn't get rid of something for being too powerful when said move clearly isn't. If Thunderbolt is too powerful, then people will just use Discharge. The same goes for every other move there - if it is banned, then a slightly inferior version will simply be used in place and the same coverage problem occurs. Nothing gets changed, so the reason to ban them becomes invalid.