RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
i would like to discuss stakeout next, gonna share my thoughts next post. what do you guys think about it?
Stakeout?
I don't see a problem from this ability. The doubled damage might sound too overpowering, but it is not like Water Bubble which does double damage unconditionally. It requires a foe to switch out, meaning the raw power will be significantly hindered otherwise. I remember you saying "Stakeout is broken" when you experienced my MMY with Stakeout and Earth Plate. While I do agree the power is ridiculous to attacks when Stakeout has been applied, you later managed to avoid it by making right plays and playing around it using Imposter.
If one decides to run Stakeout, that means one also has to prepare a 'mon to imposterproof which will also take double damage on switching out. I believe this fact is what keeps abilities like Tinted Lens on check. In my case, in the game against you, I used this MMY:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Earth Plate
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Judgment
- Moongeist Beam
And I couldn't Imposterproof this MMY without using Registeel which takes a lot of risk:
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 159-188 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This means, if Registeel takes Moongeist Beam for whatever the reason, it has to stay in to recover while I lost momentum and even let Magnet Pull user switch in. Audino in my same team could switch into Moongeist Beam, but if it takes other move, it will lose more than half HP, which will also force me to stay in, recover, and lose momentum.
No, I am not saying Imposter is a cure for every unhealthy component for metagame. I am not saying Stakeout is powerless. But I haven't seen it being too efficient in the current metagame; because a lot of wallbreakers carry coverages aimed at Steel-types (such as every Diancie carrying V-Create, some Pdon carrying Ice Hammer or Stakeout Fleur Cannon / Draco Meteor, some MMY running V-create Contrary to lure in Solgaleo and stuff), people send in Imposter to scout movesets, and during this process, they can see if the 'mon has Stakeout or not, either by sensing it or taking 30- seconds to use an online calculator.
"With that logic, Water Bubble was not banworthy because Imposter could switch in and force it out."
Water Bubble was not managable because it could get past whatever the defensive 'mons will switch in. The switch-in was severely limited to Water-resistant AV Regen which had a lot more difficulty than Steel-types dealing with the rest of the meta (most prominently -ate users), or stuff like Water Absorb and Desolate Land which aren't best ability for defensively oriented walls.
Stakeout is different. Yes, it is not completely wrong to say "A Tinted Lens that works on non-resist", but it is easy to find out in the meta where Imposters usually switch in to take a hit and scout the moveset and also ends up finding out the damage comes from either Tinted Lens or Stakeout. Imposterproofing Stakeout will force a player to use a 'mon with unique typing, (such as Fur Coat Tapu Fini and Arceus which are used to wall Stakeout Primal Groudon) most of which are either suboptimal or not viable ways to deal with the rest of the metagame.
Shortly, using Stakeout also costs the user to either run obsecure / uncommon walls that has hard time with the rest of the meta or limit attackers' movepool to leave it walled against larger portion of the meta.
I don't see a problem from this ability. The doubled damage might sound too overpowering, but it is not like Water Bubble which does double damage unconditionally. It requires a foe to switch out, meaning the raw power will be significantly hindered otherwise. I remember you saying "Stakeout is broken" when you experienced my MMY with Stakeout and Earth Plate. While I do agree the power is ridiculous to attacks when Stakeout has been applied, you later managed to avoid it by making right plays and playing around it using Imposter.
If one decides to run Stakeout, that means one also has to prepare a 'mon to imposterproof which will also take double damage on switching out. I believe this fact is what keeps abilities like Tinted Lens on check. In my case, in the game against you, I used this MMY:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Earth Plate
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Judgment
- Moongeist Beam
And I couldn't Imposterproof this MMY without using Registeel which takes a lot of risk:
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 159-188 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This means, if Registeel takes Moongeist Beam for whatever the reason, it has to stay in to recover while I lost momentum and even let Magnet Pull user switch in. Audino in my same team could switch into Moongeist Beam, but if it takes other move, it will lose more than half HP, which will also force me to stay in, recover, and lose momentum.
No, I am not saying Imposter is a cure for every unhealthy component for metagame. I am not saying Stakeout is powerless. But I haven't seen it being too efficient in the current metagame; because a lot of wallbreakers carry coverages aimed at Steel-types (such as every Diancie carrying V-Create, some Pdon carrying Ice Hammer or Stakeout Fleur Cannon / Draco Meteor, some MMY running V-create Contrary to lure in Solgaleo and stuff), people send in Imposter to scout movesets, and during this process, they can see if the 'mon has Stakeout or not, either by sensing it or taking 30- seconds to use an online calculator.
"With that logic, Water Bubble was not banworthy because Imposter could switch in and force it out."
Water Bubble was not managable because it could get past whatever the defensive 'mons will switch in. The switch-in was severely limited to Water-resistant AV Regen which had a lot more difficulty than Steel-types dealing with the rest of the meta (most prominently -ate users), or stuff like Water Absorb and Desolate Land which aren't best ability for defensively oriented walls.
Stakeout is different. Yes, it is not completely wrong to say "A Tinted Lens that works on non-resist", but it is easy to find out in the meta where Imposters usually switch in to take a hit and scout the moveset and also ends up finding out the damage comes from either Tinted Lens or Stakeout. Imposterproofing Stakeout will force a player to use a 'mon with unique typing, (such as Fur Coat Tapu Fini and Arceus which are used to wall Stakeout Primal Groudon) most of which are either suboptimal or not viable ways to deal with the rest of the metagame.
Shortly, using Stakeout also costs the user to either run obsecure / uncommon walls that has hard time with the rest of the meta or limit attackers' movepool to leave it walled against larger portion of the meta.
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Onto my speech. Let's talk about this good old friend from Hoenn:
When you look at Primal Groudon, the first thing that stands out is its fantastic Ground / Fire typing. Both are excellent types and together provides unresisted neutral coverage with Thousand Arrows. On top of this fact, Primal Groudon boasts 100/160/90 bulk that lets it live almost every relevant neutral hits barring attacks like Choice Specs Rayquaza and Kyurem-W with appropriate ability. In addition, monsterous 180 Attack (which proudly is the highest among all Ground-types) is incredibly difficult to handle with its aforementioned STAB combo which is almost always unresisted. With Fire-typing that grants STAB on V-create along with 180 Attack, those who do not resist Fire is likely to lose significant portion of health or be OHKOed outright. STAB V-create assault from this monster becomes even harder to handle when it holds Choice Band and has abilities such as Desolate Land, Adaptability, Tinted Lens or Stakeout. The only defensive walls that are capable of handling this kind of attack are BH behemoths such as Giratina, Zygarde-C, or Imposter Chansey.
While Primal Groudon is able to run Choice Band and Choice Scarf which turns it into the best physical wallbreaker of the metagame or reliable revenge / surprise killer (which is viable in nearly every archetype of teams), it forces most competitive BH teams to acquire Fur Coat Giratina / Zygarde-C / Primal Kyogre to stop V-create spam. However, this is where other Primal Groudon's sets enter. It is important to note that this physically oriented 'mon also possesses 150 Sp.Atk stat, which is capable of bypassing its usual checks (Giratian and Zygarde-C) using Stakeout + Fleur Cannon / Draco Meteor, Pixilate, Galvanize, or Contrary. Aforementioned walls are easily blown up with those sets: Zygarde-C has problem handling even unboosted Refrigerate Boomburst without Assault Vest, Giratina has a chance to be taken out after a Quiver Dance, and Primal Kyogre cannot handle Primal Groudon if it has taken Galvanize Boomburst or Primal Groudon has used Shell Smash on switch-in. Thanks to Primal Groudon's typing, those special sets, barring Stakeout which requires a another ally, are easy to imposterproof by simply running Earth Plate Judgment. Some Imposter Chansey's holding Earth Plate is a phenomenon that demonstrates how problem Primal Groudon itself is in this metagame.
Going back to defensive counters, generally speaking, are very limited, and are bypassed easily. At this point, the most reliable switch-in are Giratina and Zygarde-C with Fur Coat or Poison Heal, defensive Primal Kyogre (mostly Fur Coat), Primordial Sea / Flash Fire users (which are mostly not relevant or has hard time with rest of the meta). However, each and every one of those defensive walls lose to Primal Groudon without scouting (which can potentially weaken Imposter in the process). All of them lost to Choice Band + Tinted Lens without Fur Coat, Fur Coat variants lose to special sets as mentioned, and they are all crippled to Trick / Switcheroo if they are not equipped with Z-crystal. Especially to Giratina and Zygarde-C, with Z-crystals, they cannot afford to carry Safety Goggles and will be Spored by PH Regigigas (which is what they reliably check) every time they switch in, and this will significantly ruin the momentum.
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 294-347 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 196-231 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 262-309 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 424-500 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 196-231 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 262-309 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 424-500 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Harsh Sunshine: 292-344 (45.9 - 54%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 390-458 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 261-307 (41 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Refrigerate Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 664-784 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 390-458 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 261-307 (41 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Refrigerate Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 664-784 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 522-616 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 238-281 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Galvanize Groudon-Primal Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 226-268 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Galvanize Groudon-Primal Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 452-534 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Galvanize Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Galvanize Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 344-406 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 522-616 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 238-281 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Galvanize Groudon-Primal Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 226-268 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Galvanize Groudon-Primal Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 452-534 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Galvanize Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Galvanize Groudon-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 344-406 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It is clear that these walls are the most vulnerable to Tinted Lens or Stakeout V-create.
I am not saying V-create is not broken. It is 180 BP move that can be slapped into any relevant attacker who has trouble with Steel-types. But there are two reasons why we have to pay attention to Primal Groudon prior to that. First, V-create isn't terribly powerful if it is not STAB and has not been hit super effectively. Primal Groudon and perhaps Mega Blaziken (which is totally outclassed by the former) are the only relevant STAB V-create wallbreaker at this point, and Blaziken has high 160 Atk but it still doesn't KO important threats:Then why is V-create not an issue?
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 271-319 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 406-478 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
The second calc has respectably high chance but failure to OHKO will result in Blaziken fainting if one decided to stay in and gamble, or switching out and losing momentum if Mega Rayquaza survived V-create on switch-in. Primal Groudon's higher attack stat makes significant different of KO'ing important threats, as shown in the wall of calc above. Second reason is that if we suspect test V-create now and then it turns out Primal Groudon is still a broken 'mon in BH metagame, that will mean that we have wasted our time while we could make the metagame healthier to certain degree couple months earlier instead of having it problematic and hindering the tier.
If we take a look at stuff like MMY and Deo-A, they are stronger and faster than Primal Groudon but they are not considered broken because they are easily revenge killed without relying on APS, meaning it will be a russian roulette game when Imposter switches in and transforms, copying all those boosts. But Primal Groudon is disgustingly bulky; it is bulky enough to survive non-Choice Band Mega Garchomp's Precipice Blades and survives neutral -ate Boomburst from anyone without Choice Specs or a Plate. And it is not like Primal Groudon has reliable defensive counterplay or anything (I spent the entire time explaining how defensive counterplay is very hard if I did not make it clear).
Ultimately, I would say Primal Groudon is banworthy for these reasons:
* It is incredibly hard to stop when it has set up Shell Smash or Belly Drum, and it is too bulky to be stopped easily even at -1
* Defensive counterplay isn't always reliable and they are easily bypassed by running slightly different sets
* STAB V-create spams force every teams to specifically prepare, meaning counterplay against the rest of the metagame will be significantly limited with 1 (or more) less team slot.
Thank you for reading, and I hope everyone finds Primal Groudon banworthy as well.