BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[ShedMiddleFinga]

#NotMyMeta

Id like to point out that very few teams double up on an ability and there would likely be even fewer with triple. Also, i did suggest clauses on abilities, (dazzling, ate) But those need to be added regardless :/

So im not really asking for any over complicated clauses smh, Just that it be raised to 3 after innards out is limited or banned.

I would also like to point something else out
Sample teams in E4 flint's meta
(Warning. Skill approaching)
2 Dazzling w/ shell smash
2 Queenly majesty w/ shell smash
2 Psychich surge w/ shell smash

Why is this a thing :/

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

I'd actually like to discuss the combination of Dazzling/Queenly Majesty/Psychic Surge + Shell Smash + Focus Sash, henceforth called the R a Z z L e D a Z z L e set. After the CFZ ban, I've noticed a flood of R a Z z L e D a Z z L e mons. A few examples include Mega Gengar, Mega Mewtwo, Deoxys and Arceus among many others, with multiple on the same team even. Normally Shell Smash is a very punishable setup move, lowering the user's defences which allows priority users to more easily revenge kill them, however, the unseen Dazzling/Queenly Majesty usually results your revenge killer to die meaninglessly. And this I feel is the breaking point of the R a Z z L e D a Z z L e set. After a Shell Smash, very very few scarfers can outspeed mons such as Mega Mewtwo and Mega Gengar, with a slightly larger pool for slower mons such as Primal Groudon and Yveltal. Because of this, most of the time you are forced to take a very powerful boosted hit to even hope to kill the R a Z z L e D a Z z L e user. Not only is it difficult to wall R a Z z L e D a Z z L e users after a Shell Smash, thanks to the addition of the new Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike, only specific Unaware users are able to sufficiently wall these boosted threats.

Because of the potency, splashability and unpredictability of R a Z z L e D a Z z L e, I do feel like it needs a looking into as it does force offensive teams to never let an offensive mon the free Shell Smash turn as it can in turn sweep them very easily.

 

[MAMP]

Setup has always been arguably the single most important threat in BH, going back to the metagame's conception. For most of BH's history, there has existed sufficient counterplay to setup to mostly keep it in check, but in SM various new moves, abilities, and mechanical changes have really tipped the scales in favour of setup moves. Quite a few people in this thread have raised the issue that setup sweepers have become too hard to deal with, and I've got some opinions on this that I want to share.

Setup moves are balanced in standard tiers by their predictability and their often limited distribution, but these limitations are mostly lifted in BH. Geoxern is one of the most powerful setup sweepers in Pokemon history and can easily tear through teams in Ubers after just a single turn of setup, but ultimately its predictability keeps it in check. If you're playing against a Xerneas, you always know that there's the possibility of it using Geomancy and you can play around it accordingly -- Xerneas using Geomancy is never a surprise. Obviously, this is not the case in BH, where powerful setup moves like Geomancy can come from anywhere. Additionally, the strongest setup moves, like Shell Smash and Quiver Dance, are balanced by mostly being given to generally mediocre Pokemon, which prevents them from being overwhelming. Moves like these were designed as a way to buff mons like Butterfree and Omastar, so its no surprise that they become exceedingly difficult to deal with when you can give them to mons with BSTs of nearly 800.

The greatest challenge when playing BH is the fact that every mon is completely unpredictable -- there is almost no way of knowing what your opponent will throw at you. This is a huge part of the appeal of BH, but also arguably its greatest flaw. The wild, chaotic, freeform nature of the metagame is the reason that so many people like it so much, but simultaneously, the inability to know how to play around your opponents threats can make for a lot of very frustrating games where you just lose to weird sets that you couldn't have possibly predicted. In my opinion, the ideal BH metagame should strike a healthy balance between freedom and unpredictability, where you can still be creative and successfully run strange sets, but where the volatility of the metagame is limited so as to minimise how often games are decided purely by an unpredictable set. I think this is something that should be kept in mind during BH suspect discussions, because just losing to weird shit that you couldn't have played around is neither fun nor conducive to a competitive metagame.

With all that being said, I think its important that something be done about setup sweepers in SM BH. What makes setup so uniquely dangerous in BH is that it's easily the most potent surprise you can pull on your opponent. Having an unexpected Magic Bouncer means that you might get some free Stealth Rocks, having Spore on some random mon means you might get to put something to sleep, and having a weird coverage move on your offensive mon might get you a surprise kill or at least take a big chunk out of some wall. Pulling out a surprise setup sweeper at the right time will often just win you the game on the spot. Random Shell Smash mons are almost impossible to see coming, and if you don't predict them and let them have a free turn then there usually isn't all that much you can do. Of course, there are plenty of ways to check setup sweepers, I won't deny that. However: setup sweepers have so many tools to get past these checks that often running multiple won't be enough to save you. As I mentioned before, so many of these tools were introduced this generation and this is the reason that setup is so much more problematic in SM BH compared to previous generations of BH. Specifically, I'm talking about Dazzling/Queenly Majesty/Psychic Surge, Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam, Power Trip, +1 all stats Z-moves, Destiny Bond nerf, Prankster nerf, Triage, and the introduction (or re-introduction) of numerous powerful offensive Pokemon (I'm probably forgetting some). A lot of people in this thread seem to be pinning the blame solely on the priority blocking abilities, but I think that's somewhat unfair -- the dominance of setup in the current metagame is the result of a variety of factors.

Something to keep in mind is that BH at the moment is an obscenely cluttered tier. There is such a huge range of threats that need to be prepared for while teambuilding that it's basically impossible to build a team that is even close to being prepared for the meta. This means that miscellaneous offensive threats are just generally a lot more difficult to deal with because all teams have fewer tools with which to deal with them (tangent: this is the reason that Innards Out is so popular at the moment. Not just because it's a fantastic blanket check to a ton of scary offensive dudes, but also because the ability to trade 1 for 1 with defensive mons is so powerful when most teams are relying on a single Pokemon to check things like PDon and Water Bubble and -ate). It's feasible that setup may become easier to deal with once other things are banned, but I feel it's undeniable that it's broken now.

I don't have anything in particular in mind for what should be banned here, my intent was more to just start a discussion about this. BH has a long history of preferring to ban abilities when something is broken and I think you could certainly make a strong case that Dazzling/QM/PSurge is the broken element in this instance, but I think we should at least consider a ban on Shell Smash, because I feel it's easily the most powerful and versatile setup move available and is ultimately the enabler for these prio blocker + setup sets (im not calling it razzle dazzle thats stupid ass shit).

==========

I also want to say that I'm kinda frustrated with the sluggish pace of suspects and bans so far this gen. E4 Flint last gen you said that bans would happen quickly this gen, but its been more than two months and we've only had 1 suspect and 2 quickbans? This metagame has been hideously unbalanced for its entire lifespan and will undoubtedly take numerous more bans to reach a balanced state, yet you insist on doing suspects with a 3 week period (2 to ladder, 1 to vote), one at a time with a multiple week gap in between. I really just don't understand it. The fact that Water Bubble is still in the tier after more than 2 months when it's unanimously agreed to be broken is just baffling to me. The BH open is coming up and at this rate the tier will still be a broken mess by the time that starts, which is something I think should be avoided.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I do agree that shell smash is a main cause of all these problems. I say this because of the various combinations of ietms and abilities one can run with smash that don't work as well with other setup moves like geomancy or quiver dance.
dqm sash smash is really hard to stop without a prankster haze or unaware user and even then, as MAMP said, those can be gotten rid of fairly easily. Entry hazards are so hard to maintain since any mon can run defog or rapid spin to just remove them, so entry hazards aren't a guaranteed way to break sashes. Therefore the Focus Sash forces you to sac at least a single mon and probably more like two since you have to hit the sweeper at least twice to break the sash and then KO it. Or you can run a multi hit move just to beat it, but every multi hit move has something that won't die to it even with lowered defenses.
White herb is very powerful on simple smash sweepers giving them free +4 boosts to their offensive stats. Power trip and Stored Power becomes 260 bp in a single turn, and without the miniscule dangers of dropped defenses, they won't even die that fast.
I've also seen king's rock +skill link +shell smash on some bulkier tank mons such as kyurem-b but also on frailer offensive powerhouses like Pheramosa, which is really gimmicky but can obliterate a lot of common checks to your other setup sweeper, that can still run DQM alongside you. It easily disposes of p-don and steel types with bone rush, Giratina and Zygarde-c with icicle spear, and even unaware Arceus or Audino with a powerful sunsteel strike if it wants. And it easily bluffs the other sets too, so you have no clue what it will try and do to you until you lose something.

I think that geomancy also might be suspect worth; the only downsides to it versus extreme evo boost is that you get slightly less stats, have to use an item for the z effect or to remove the charge up, and that you have to put it on a special attacker for maximum usefulness. It's still an extremely potent setup move, and power herb geomancy is pretty formidable especially when paired with simple for +4 to special attack, special defense and speed all in a single turn. And bringing it in isn't all that hard either because you can set up on most special attackers or defensive Pokemon and proceed to knock out at least one member of the opposing team before they can stop you with a solid physical priority attack or a haze. If you're willing to risk more, you can go for z geomancy which will also improve your defenses even more, so you can actually take a few priority moves, or use psychic terrain support to nullify those as well. If we do ban smash though, Geomancy will become the next best thing.
maybe the UU tiering policy should be applied here also since there is so much broken stuff.

 

[E4 Flint]

I also want to say that I'm kinda frustrated with the sluggish pace of suspects and bans so far this gen. E4 Flint last gen you said that bans would happen quickly this gen, but its been more than two months and we've only had 1 suspect and 2 quickbans? This metagame has been hideously unbalanced for its entire lifespan and will undoubtedly take numerous more bans to reach a balanced state, yet you insist on doing suspects with a 3 week period (2 to ladder, 1 to vote), one at a time with a multiple week gap in between. I really just don't understand it. The fact that Water Bubble is still in the tier after more than 2 months when it's unanimously agreed to be broken is just baffling to me. The BH open is coming up and at this rate the tier will still be a broken mess by the time that starts, which is something I think should be avoided.

I would like to reiterate that I find it extremely baffling to suspect unrelated things at a time. There are also policies I have to follow such as wait times for suspects, and their length. These will not change. I will attempt to make quicker decisions by making use of the polls like I have before and some other ideas I have, but suspecting two or more mechanics that have split opinions at the same time is not going to happen.



Again, just so it's clear, if there is to be a suspect for water bubble it will obviously happen after the vote, and will take the specified two week period. This would not change whether there was a vote or not since there is an AAA suspect planned soon as well.

I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself mamp. I've answered your complaint at least three times in this thread now, and more in person. I can't arbitrarily make one week suspects or 3 day suspects subject to anyone's whims. I made the polls as a way to give everyone the option to decide whether to go for quickban or not which is faster than the 2 week suspect, is it not?
You mention "unanimously agreed to be broken" yet when I gave the vote to quickban it people voted to suspect it, in spite of this "unanimous" nature, and in spite of me making it pretty clear that another suspect would mean the regular time taken for the suspect. And I did plan on introducing a new rule for the Water Bubble suspect to try and help make it faster. In addition, even the ComaTalk clause is not in yet so I don't want to start making suspects till that's implemented which was also the case for when Evoboost and Assist + CFZ were not fixed for nearly a week each.

I don't want to sound irritated but I don't know why you keep asking the same question when I'm going to give the same response every time, especially when I'm telling you the whole situation for why it takes the time it does, since a lot of it is policy-related. Do you read what I say about the context as to why it's taking so long? It's not me sitting here and saying " I think suspects should be 3 weeks so I have more time to spam this broken stuff." Maybe I know what I'm doing and about the community a bit.

Anyway, The Water Bubble suspect vote has ended, and the option to suspect it is still above 60% which is our normal cutoff for suspect votes in general. This suspect will start sometime next week. Here are some of my proposed ideas for it:

• I noticed that there was some discussion that Water Bubble may not inherently be broken but that Kyogre-Primal is broken with it; while I don't really agree, one idea I had is to try and consult with the OM Leaders to see if we can disallow Water Bubble on Kyogre-Primal for this suspect period (this will not be a complex option for ban later, it is only to test).
• I also recognize that Water Bubble has been in the tier for a while now so for this suspect, I was planning on two measures to try and speed up things:
  • If you have an alt that matches your smogon username already that would've already met reqs from your /rank on the normal ladder you can vote directly
  • The vote thread and reqs period will start simultaneously

I would normally post about this when I was sure that I am allowed to do all of this, but the question keeps popping up on why it keeps taking so long, so I answered it now. I hope that answers everyone's questions.

Also, I will begin another suspect vote on Innards Out.

Thanks

 

[guan123]

Water Bubble is not just a problem with Kyogre-Primal. Ash greninja is also a problem with water bubble due to its higher speed at the cost of power. A set of Water Shuriken, Origin Pulse, Moongeist Beam, and Core enforcer would work.

 

[Rumors]

Honestly, the moment I saw Power Trip was a thing... well, lemme just copy and paste from my own personal notes.

Power Trip > ohgodwhy?

I never did like Stored Power either, but at least it has immunities. But either way, I've been currently struggling to find the most ideal anti-Power Trip Unaware and I'm finding there's very few good options that aren't bopped by common coverage or Sungeist. I'm pretty much down to experimenting with Unaware Umbreon since it resists Power Trip, is immune to Stored Power, can be EVed to have juuuust enough bulk to take a Primal V-Create or Mega -ate Boomburst (Diancie aside), isn't weak to Sungeist, and isn't nailed by common coverage, such as Yveltal and Ice Beams or Gyarados and Bolt Strike. But as much as I like Umbreon, it's still not an ideal Pokemon for BH.


But yeah, it might be worthwhile to try to identify all the problems with the tier. And maybe, once we've settled on a good list, run a big round robin tournament with all those bans in place? It'd give us a chance to see if we were correct or not without a lengthy suspect process nor affecting the current ladder. I think a second BH meta for testing that stuff would function better, but I don't think the OM leaders would allow it. Anyway, I can provide a list of opinions on that if anyone wants and thinks a sort of tournament might be a good idea.


As for the Water Bubble suspect, I think blocking it from Kyo-P during would be a good idea since it'd cleanly illustrate whether Water Bubble or Kyo-P using it is the problem. I don't see much point in not changing anything for the suspect since, well, we've been laddering and playing with it the whole time as is.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

I never did like Stored Power either, but at least it has immunities. But either way, I've been currently struggling to find the most ideal anti-Power Trip Unaware and I'm finding there's very few good options that aren't bopped by common coverage or Sungeist. I'm pretty much down to experimenting with Unaware Umbreon since it resists Power Trip, is immune to Stored Power, can be EVed to have juuuust enough bulk to take a Primal V-Create or Mega -ate Boomburst (Diancie aside), isn't weak to Sungeist, and isn't nailed by common coverage, such as Yveltal and Ice Beams or Gyarados and Bolt Strike. But as much as I like Umbreon, it's still not an ideal Pokemon for BH.

I'm just going to put this here to make your life a bit easier...

Both Guzzlord and Magearna work as Power Trip walls. Both are neutral to Sunsteel Strike, and can take them comfortably. Guzzlord is also nailed by Ice Beam, but has a stupid amount of HP to the point that it might make them better than Yveltal. Buzzwole might be able to fill in this role, as well, if the attacker is purely physical. But yeah, the list of things that can take Power Trip on when set up is pretty short, and Impostors help out in taking the bulkier ones on, too.
I would like the idea of a round robin tournament with bans in place, too.

As for Water Bubble, let's just leave Primal Kyogre there until it's gone. And then we can talk about the Primals.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Any1 who wants to ban pogre and pdon will have to go through me first >:(

Imo the ban schedule for the next few months should look like this:
-Ban waterbubble (idc but whatever)
-Ban or limit innards to 1
-Make at minimum a ate/dazzling clause treating their counterpart as the same
-if psychic terrain is unbanned ban terrain extender to stop general bullshittery

And finally to fix the shell smash problem I can see these solutions:
-Ban shell slash. (Idk if i like this 1)
-Ban dazzling etc (I really dont like this 1)
-Ban sunsteel or limit it only to stab mons.
-ban power trip/storedpower

Imo basically nothing uses sunsteel unless its a troll set or has stab. If you get rid of it you now only have to deal with moongeist which is far more manageable and allows for far easier checking with unaware mons. There are other powerful steel moves anyway if you really want the coverage.

Pretty sure I hit everything, but u guys are welcome to add stuff

 

[guan123]

Sunsteel strike/Moongeist Beam is often used to hit Sturdy Shedinja. Why is sunsteel strike a problem in the first place?

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Sunsteel strike/Moongeist Beam is often used to hit Sturdy Shedinja. Why is sunsteel strike a problem in the first place?[/quot

because unaware smh. If you want to kill shed run moongeist instead.


I dont know if anyone else has fought halighter recently ;_; but can we pls have a dazzling clause

 

[guan123]

because unaware smh. If you want to kill shed run moongeist instead.


I dont know if anyone else has fought halighter recently ;_; but can we pls have a dazzling clause

I don't get it. Wouldn't physical attackers run sunsteel strike to hit shed? (Or to hit fairies and rocks?). And why is unaware + sunsteel strike a problem?

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I don't get it. Wouldn't physical attackers run sunsteel strike to hit shed? (Or to hit fairies and rocks?). And why is unaware + sunsteel strike a problem?

It isnt the problem. Shell smash dazzling is the problem and getting rid of sunsteel i one of the ways to fix it. My point is nothing runs it except for the aforementioned sets and getting rid of it would only nerf steel stab mons and shell smash mons ability to take say unaware audino.

 

[cityscapes]

It isnt the problem. Shell smash dazzling is the problem and getting rid of sunsteel i one of the ways to fix it. My point is nothing runs it except for the aforementioned sets and getting rid of it would only nerf steel stab mons and shell smash mons ability to take say unaware audino.

huh? This post doesn't make sense to me.

I agree that Dazzling Sash Smash is definitely a problem, seeing that I fought Haylighter three times and felt like there was nothing I could do even if I played perfectly (which I definitely wasn't, to be fair). However, I don't see how banning Sunsteel Strike would solve this.

First of all, the Sash Smash strategy itself is relatively untouched if Sunsteel Strike is banned. Specially based sweepers can just run Moongeist Beam instead, while physical sweepers can just grab other coverage.

On the other hand, there's definitely more residual damage than "would only nerf steel stab mons". Pokémon like MMX like their coverage because Fairy-types are most definitely a prominent metagame force, and Contrary mons like it too to bypass Unaware users.

Overall, I think that banning this move would definitely not produce the desired effect on the metagame because in no way does it compromise the integrity of the "Razzle Dazzle" strategy. Sash Smash will still sweep your team unless you run Unaware Audino, and having to run Unaware Audino on every defensive team is kind of stupid tbh.

Should we just ban Shell Smash then? It's definitely a move that's become very problematic when coupled with the use of Dazzling. On the other hand, Dazzling helps keeps Triage in check, so I think that at least for now, it can offer something good for the meta.

 

[Rumors]

I'm just going to put this here to make your life a bit easier...

Both Guzzlord and Magearna work as Power Trip walls. Both are neutral to Sunsteel Strike, and can take them comfortably. Guzzlord is also nailed by Ice Beam, but has a stupid amount of HP to the point that it might make them better than Yveltal. Buzzwole might be able to fill in this role, as well, if the attacker is purely physical. But yeah, the list of things that can take Power Trip on when set up is pretty short, and Impostors help out in taking the bulkier ones on, too.
I would like the idea of a round robin tournament with bans in place, too.

As for Water Bubble, let's just leave Primal Kyogre there until it's gone. And then we can talk about the Primals.

Thing is, Guzzlord can't really take Contrary Draco Meteor and Magearna can't take Contrary V-Create. I'm experimenting with Umbreon since it can wall Power Trip pretty well and have other Unaware functions too. Plus STAB Foul Play and Prankster immunity are always nice.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Thing is, Guzzlord can't really take Contrary Draco Meteor and Magearna can't take Contrary V-Create. I'm experimenting with Umbreon since it can wall Power Trip pretty well and have other Unaware functions too. Plus STAB Foul Play and Prankster immunity are always nice.

If we're trying to wall Power Trip and Contrary, the list certainly does get considerably shorter. While I personally feel as those two jobs are left to two different Unaware walls, Mega Gyarados is the closest we're going to get, as it's only really hit by Bolt Strike and Leaf Storm. Unfortunately, the only truly legendary Fighting type is... Mega Mewtwo X, who is also neutral to Power Trip. Most of the Power Trip walls are also Power Trip abusers in some capacity, which is silly.
Also, an added bonus with Magearna is that the opponent might also think it's Flash Fire, causing them to halt the brakes on the V-Create for a bit. If we had a bulky Fighting type Legendary (besides Buzzwole), we wouldn't really be having this talk as long and hard as we are... But the best we have is Multitype Arceus-Fighting... which is actually pretty sad to resort to. (Please don't use Arceus-Fighting)

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

It isnt the problem. Shell smash dazzling is the problem and getting rid of sunsteel i one of the ways to fix it. My point is nothing runs it except for the aforementioned sets and getting rid of it would only nerf steel stab mons and shell smash mons ability to take say unaware audino.

We battled today and i learned Sunsteel is absolutly needed.

Sunsteel is resisted by Water Bubble making sets more imposterproof and there is only 1 good special priority move
(Water Bubble boosted Water Shuriken) in current Focus Sash meta.

Moongeist sucks compared to Sunsteel cuz many Unaware need to resist Power Trip, which means
they are mostly Dark types thus resisting Ghost.

Core Enforcer is the best move atm. Only counterplay is in type chart.


The only issue i have with QM and Dazzling is that the game tells you after move choice.
Imagine the the game tells opponents Mold Breaker only if it would make a difference.

With everything being on replay and team editing so easy nowdays,
you have to worry about NOT being able to revengekill every rematch.
And if the opponent bluffs you its your fault.


I used a double Guzzlord team and it worked decently (arround 1600).
90% i used Unaware 10% Innhards Out.

Guzzlord main advantage is that he underspeeds alot for great use of STAB Core Enforcer and Metal Burst.
He can take a Sunsteel aswell;
+2 252+ Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Guzzlord: 484-570 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I think I can (or I try) to simplify the arguments started from last 2 pages with one post.

Let me explain where all these issues came from:


1. Introduction of Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Psychic Terrain (Surge)

This might seem blatantly obvious to the ones who played BH last gen but hear me out.

Sa-Shmash sweeping was nearly impossible last gen because what happened all the time was:


Gen 6:

MMY used Shell Smash!
MMY took a nuke damage! It hold on using its focus sash!
MMY used Stored Power!
Opponent was ripped into pieces and fainted!

-Next turn-

Opponent sent out Rayquaza (Rayquaza-Mega)!
Rayquaza used Fake Out!
MMY fainted saying puck you!

Gen 7:

MMY used Shell Smash!
MMY took a nuke damage! It hold on using its focus sash!
MMY used Stored Power!
Opponent was ripped into pieces and fainted!

-Next turn-

Opponent sent out Rayquaza (Rayquaza-Mega)!
Rayquaza used Fake Out!
[MMY's Queenly Majesty!]
Rayquaza cannot use Fake Out!
MMY used Stored Power saying puck you!
Rayquaza has been obliterated!

Once you make a stupid mistake or make a wrong lead your team is forced to:

* Send Imposter and find out the opposing team has a wall ready for it or the sweeper itself is improofed

* Sacrifice Innards Out for that damn Shell Smasher left with 1 HP

* Send Unaware wall which is usually dented after revenge-killing or removing boosts

* Die

I am not saying this is unhealthy for the meta but I am getting sick of every single 'mons spamming Shell Smash with damn Focus Sash and Power Tripping or using Stored Power smh. I never used Imposter in my life until I faced this stupid team with 4 mons with Sa-Shmash and 2 Dazzlings and Queenly Majesty.

I know many of you mentioned this above but Dazzling and Queenly Majesty are the same shet. This needs to be fixed.



2. Cancerous Satan Chansey

It's everyone's favorite. Pokedex explains how much benefit does this blob bring to the whole universe:


A kindly Pokémon that lays highly nutritious eggs explosion greater than North Korean hydrogen bomb with a single physical touch and shares them the nuclear explosion with injured to injure Pokémon with 700+ damage or people by giving them rage stroke.

It walks carefully to prevent its egg from breaking anyone who seems to be a threat and makes explosion.

It is said to deliver happiness stage 5 cancer. Being compassionate a copy of the others, it shares its eggs copies the boost and injureds people.

PM me if you disagree with any of these.

This pink substance is a check for most unprepared set up sweepers, infinite source of PP, or a bomb to make sweepers short-lived.

This thing has 13 def (lvl 100) when you minimize its Defense, and tbh this made it Deo-A spam and Water Bubble a little more bearable. (Registeel's uninvested U-turn OHKOes it)

Here, I publicly apologize to people about using a team with 5 chansey and Kyurem-W, because I somehow reached ladder 1600+ with that team in 1 day by simply throwing 2 bombs to set up sweepers and Metal Bursting the rest.

Why is the apology necessary? Well, Innards Out never requires you to use skill. If something like Primal Groudon just sets up, just send the bomb against it. Then it will either die with the explosion or find itself getting poisoned or phazed away while attempting to find a way around it. I have been doing this to ruin many people's ladders and bring them extreme stress.

But I will continue to abuse this team until Innards Out is banned or gets limitation. So screw you all. :D

Just kidding.


3. The tale of a Crayfish and a Whale Primals

I am not mentioning these are banworthy.
I am rather happy that I can try more things while having appropriate rivals against Mega Rayquaza, which was close to ban in the past.

But the reasons I am mentioning about a crayfish and a whale are:


* Ability Abuses

Water Bubble. This thing needs to be banned.
Where the puck in the world would Giratina lose more than half of its HP from resisted attack outsides Tinted Lens?
How would Mega Gyarados (95 HP, 130 SpDef) lose around half of its HP from resisted Special Attack with Assault Vest?

Stakeout. This makes a crayfish (Groudon) a killing machine.
So after couple slow U-turns, crayfish finally comes out against something like Sogaleo or Registeel. There are couple options:

* Stay absentmindedly and die
* Switch and watch someone get severely dented or die
* Send Imposter and watch it lose more than half of its health
* Send Innards Out bomb and die together but you still die
* Switch to Fur Coat and watch it holding Choice Band or Choice Scarf the following turn

Never in my BH life, have I seen Giratina or Mega Slowbro being OHKOed by unresisted attacks when they lack Fur Coat.

STAB V-Create is an absolute nuke, and is something to watch out for besides Water Bubble - boosted attacks from Kyogre.


4. I ate breakfast please kill me Ate

Puck Mega Diancie for murdering all dragons.
Puck Exploud for introducing Boomburst.
Puck Kyurem-W for destroying Giratina and Zygarde-C. Says the person who has been writing Kyurem-W analysis
Puck Alolan Golem for introducing Galvanize.

Look at Kyurem - B. If you play OU you will notice how shetty its movepool is, but look what it is doing in BH.

Look at Zekrom. If you play Ubers you will notice how it is always forced to run Scarf, but look at how does it revenge kill.

Look at Groudon. If you play Ubers you will always switch under Primordial Sea but it suddenly uses Galvanized Boomburst.

...
I know these abilities are very good especially compensating 'mons with good stats that are drawn back by movepool or typing.
But I do not say there should be multiples of them, because it can destroy any unprepared team that is not specifically prepared for this high-powered attacks in variety of types.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Overall similar to how ShedMiddleFinga mentioned I think the suspect test will go:

* Bye Water Bubble
* Alleviate current BH metagame by limiting Innards Out nuke bombs
* Clarify Dazzling = Queenly Majesty
* Limit or farewell to Primals

IMO don't think there's anything else that puts the BH under the pandemonium.

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

I'll make a shorter tl;dr

Dazzling/Queenly Majesty

- forces you to take a hit and phaze instead of revenge kill.

Innards Out

- forces you to play 50/50s with an important mon all game to not lose it.

Water Bubble

- basically tinted lens which also works on non resists.

Primals are fine IMO Zygarde now checks Primal Groudon and PH Primal Kyogre (the main reason it got banned last gen) is a lot easier to deal with because of Spectral Thief and Core Enforcer.

Again ates are nerfed this gen and with anti priority ability I think they are fine for now unless if the said anti priority abilities are banned then in which case I'll reconsider my opinion.

 

[ARandomNoob]

ates arent as bad now because anti priority is everywhere (also, they're mostly physical, mega aggron perish trap can be a decent switch in on unboosted physical ate, especially if resisted). 1 mon only species clause will never happen but maybe 3 or 4 limit, or possibly 2 if there's enough want for it (which probably won't happen) should be fine, whereas stuff like the 5-final-gambit-blissey + FEAR Eevee meme team i had back in gen 6 should just not be a thing that ever happens (even if that particular team struggles with Sheddy). Just...anything that stops "X mon 6 times" teams where either you have a hardcounter or you lose.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I think I can (or I try) to simplify the arguments started from last 2 pages with one post.

Let me explain where all these issues came from:


1. Introduction of Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Psychic Terrain (Surge)

View attachment 77357

This might seem blatantly obvious to the ones who played BH last gen but hear me out.

Sa-Shmash sweeping was nearly impossible last gen because what happened all the time was:


Gen 6:

MMY used Shell Smash!
MMY took a nuke damage! It hold on using its focus sash!
MMY used Stored Power!
Opponent was ripped into pieces and fainted!

-Next turn-

Opponent sent out Rayquaza (Rayquaza-Mega)!
Rayquaza used Fake Out!
MMY fainted saying puck you!

Gen 7:

MMY used Shell Smash!
MMY took a nuke damage! It hold on using its focus sash!
MMY used Stored Power!
Opponent was ripped into pieces and fainted!

-Next turn-

Opponent sent out Rayquaza (Rayquaza-Mega)!
Rayquaza used Fake Out!
[MMY's Queenly Majesty!]
Rayquaza cannot use Fake Out!
MMY used Stored Power saying puck you!
Rayquaza has been obliterated!

Once you make a stupid mistake or make a wrong lead your team is forced to:

* Send Imposter and find out the opposing team has a wall ready for it or the sweeper itself is improofed

* Sacrifice Innards Out for that damn Shell Smasher left with 1 HP

* Send Unaware wall which is usually dented after revenge-killing or removing boosts

* Die

I am not saying this is unhealthy for the meta but I am getting sick of every single 'mons spamming Shell Smash with damn Focus Sash and Power Tripping or using Stored Power smh. I never used Imposter in my life until I faced this stupid team with 4 mons with Sa-Shmash and 2 Dazzlings and Queenly Majesty.

I know many of you mentioned this above but Dazzling and Queenly Majesty are the same shet. This needs to be fixed.



2. Cancerous Satan Chansey

It's everyone's favorite. Pokedex explains how much benefit does this blob bring to the whole universe:


A kindly Pokémon that lays highly nutritious eggs explosion greater than North Korean hydrogen bomb with a single physical touch and shares them the nuclear explosion with injured to injure Pokémon with 700+ damage or people by giving them rage stroke.

It walks carefully to prevent its egg from breaking anyone who seems to be a threat and makes explosion.

It is said to deliver happiness stage 5 cancer. Being compassionate a copy of the others, it shares its eggs copies the boost and injureds people.

PM me if you disagree with any of these.

This pink substance is a check for most unprepared set up sweepers, infinite source of PP, or a bomb to make sweepers short-lived.

This thing has 13 def (lvl 100) when you minimize its Defense, and tbh this made it Deo-A spam and Water Bubble a little more bearable. (Registeel's uninvested U-turn OHKOes it)

Here, I publicly apologize to people about using a team with 5 chansey and Kyurem-W, because I somehow reached ladder 1600+ with that team in 1 day by simply throwing 2 bombs to set up sweepers and Metal Bursting the rest.

Why is the apology necessary? Well, Innards Out never requires you to use skill. If something like Primal Groudon just sets up, just send the bomb against it. Then it will either die with the explosion or find itself getting poisoned or phazed away while attempting to find a way around it. I have been doing this to ruin many people's ladders and bring them extreme stress.

But I will continue to abuse this team until Innards Out is banned or gets limitation. So screw you all. :D

Just kidding.


3. The tale of a Crayfish and a Whale Primals

View attachment 77359

I am not mentioning these are banworthy.
I am rather happy that I can try more things while having appropriate rivals against Mega Rayquaza, which was close to ban in the past.

But the reasons I am mentioning about a crayfish and a whale are:


* Ability Abuses

Water Bubble. This thing needs to be banned.
Where the puck in the world would Giratina lose more than half of its HP from resisted attack outsides Tinted Lens?
How would Mega Gyarados (95 HP, 130 SpDef) lose around half of its HP from resisted Special Attack with Assault Vest?

Stakeout. This makes a crayfish (Groudon) a killing machine.
So after couple slow U-turns, crayfish finally comes out against something like Sogaleo or Registeel. There are couple options:

* Stay absentmindedly and die
* Switch and watch someone get severely dented or die
* Send Imposter and watch it lose more than half of its health
* Send Innards Out bomb and die together but you still die
* Switch to Fur Coat and watch it holding Choice Band or Choice Scarf the following turn

Never in my BH life, have I seen Giratina or Mega Slowbro being OHKOed by unresisted attacks when they lack Fur Coat.

STAB V-Create is an absolute nuke, and is something to watch out for besides Water Bubble - boosted attacks from Kyogre.


4. I ate breakfast please kill me Ate

View attachment 77360

Puck Mega Diancie for murdering all dragons.
Puck Exploud for introducing Boomburst.
Puck Kyurem-W for destroying Giratina and Zygarde-C. Says the person who has been writing Kyurem-W analysis
Puck Alolan Golem for introducing Galvanize.

Look at Kyurem - B. If you play OU you will notice how shetty its movepool is, but look what it is doing in BH.

Look at Zekrom. If you play Ubers you will notice how it is always forced to run Scarf, but look at how does it revenge kill.

Look at Groudon. If you play Ubers you will always switch under Primordial Sea but it suddenly uses Galvanized Boomburst.

...
I know these abilities are very good especially compensating 'mons with good stats that are drawn back by movepool or typing.
But I do not say there should be multiples of them, because it can destroy any unprepared team that is not specifically prepared for this high-powered attacks in variety of types.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Overall similar to how ShedMiddleFinga mentioned I think the suspect test will go:

* Bye Water Bubble
* Alleviate current BH metagame by limiting Innards Out nuke bombs
* Clarify Dazzling = Queenly Majesty
* Limit or farewell to Primals

IMO don't think there's anything else that puts the BH under the pandemonium.

For those who refuse to read my gigantic post, here's a short summary about the checks I have come up with:

1. Introduction of Dazzling / Queenly Majesty / Psychic Terrain (Surge)

Innards Out (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Bolt Strike
- Sunsteel Strike
- V-create / Sunsteel Strike

* 252 Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 612-724 (96.2 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

* 252 Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 327-385 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

* 252 Atk Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 260-306 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can still use -ates without priority.


2. Cancerous Satan Chansey

Primordial Sea (Groudon-Primal) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Bolt Strike

Chansey and Guzzlord is a breakfast.

"How do you improof this Kyurem-B and Groudon?"


Emergency Exit (Slowbro-Mega) (M) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Volt Switch

This kid awaits Bolt Strike from Imposters.



3. The tale of a Crayfish and a Whale Primals

Lightning Rod (Zygarde-Complete) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn


* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 330-390 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

* 252 Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zygarde-Complete: 560-660 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Touch me harder.


4. I ate breakfast please kill me Ate

Slowbro-Mega or other physical bulks with Soundproof or appropriate Special Defense investment.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

Slowbro-Mega or other physical bulks with Soundproof or appropriate Special Defense investment.

Mega Slowbro is underrated, it checks Galvalize if Volt Absorb, counters Kartana with Sap Sipper, resists Sunsteel
and can surprise with Water Bubble.

 

[tegrof19]

even though water bubble's banned? n1

seriously though we don't need to type like angsty preteens we have ou for that

 

[ElMustacho]

I'm going to write something about Comatose, as even if Comaphaze is banned, it can still be used. I'll compare it to Poison Heal and Natural Cure.

• Comatose is the closest thing to status immunity we have. Yeah it suffers from Nightmare, Dream Eater and Bad Dreams, but that's unlikely to happen because they often suck. Natural Cure only works on the switch out. Poison Heal needs activation to sponge statuses, and we all know its common problems (Knock Off on the switch to say one of them).
• Comatose cannot be shutdown. It ignores Core Enforcer and Worry Seed/Simple Beam/Gastro Acid and it cannot be Skill Swapped or Entrained. Mold Breaker and family can't bypass it. If something gets his ability suppressed and then Baton Passes to a Comatose user, Comatose is unaffected. This indirectly makes Comatose the best switch in to Normalize Gengar. Both other abilities fail to provide those qualities.
• Comatose doesn't heal statuses. While this will never affect the Comatose user (as it never gain them in the first place), if an Imposter switches to copy Comatose and Toxic Spikes are up, the imposter will end up (badly) poisoned. If the imposter copies Poison Heal then it needs to be poisoned to use it. Copying Natural cure will allow the imposter to cure its status (if any exists).
• Running Poison Heal indirectly makes your team weak to status, as using Heal Bell will cure the poisoned user of Poison Heal. Both Comatose and Natural Cure ignore this situation.
• Poison Heal heals the user for 1/8 of health. Other abilities might only run Leftovers for 1/16 of health, but are otherwise free to use any item they like, while Poison Heal must run Toxic Orb.
• Comatose treats Baneful Bunker as Protect. Poison Heal enjoys Baneful Bunker. Natural Cure might get poisoned, but it can switch out to cure it.
• All of them soft checks No Guard users, shrugging off statuses.
• Comatose can receive a Toxic Orb from Trick and laugh at it. Poison Heal will enjoy it. Natural Cure will be pissed off, but otherwise still work.
• Natural Cure can be used against Poison Heal users to cure them. Comatose can't do that.

I enjoyed a lot using Comatose on Giratina, as an opponent tried to use Spore, Zap Cannon, Dynamic Punch (wouldn't have worked anyway) and lastly tricked me a Toxic Orb. It's really a sturdy ability.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I'm going to write something about Comatose, as even if Comaphaze is banned, it can still be used. I'll compare it to Poison Heal and Natural Cure.

• Comatose is the closest thing to status immunity we have. Yeah it suffers from Nightmare, Dream Eater and Bad Dreams, but that's unlikely to happen because they often suck. Natural Cure only works on the switch out. Poison Heal needs activation to sponge statuses, and we all know its common problems (Knock Off on the switch to say one of them).
• Comatose cannot be shutdown. It ignores Core Enforcer and Worry Seed/Simple Beam/Gastro Acid and it cannot be Skill Swapped or Entrained. Mold Breaker and family can't bypass it. If something gets his ability suppressed and then Baton Passes to a Comatose user, Comatose is unaffected. This indirectly makes Comatose the best switch in to Normalize Gengar. Both other abilities fail to provide those qualities.
• Comatose doesn't heal statuses. While this will never affect the Comatose user (as it never gain them in the first place), if an Imposter switches to copy Comatose and Toxic Spikes are up, the imposter will end up (badly) poisoned. If the imposter copies Poison Heal then it needs to be poisoned to use it. Copying Natural cure will allow the imposter to cure its status (if any exists).
• Running Poison Heal indirectly makes your team weak to status, as using Heal Bell will cure the poisoned user of Poison Heal. Both Comatose and Natural Cure ignore this situation.
• Poison Heal heals the user for 1/8 of health. Other abilities might only run Leftovers for 1/16 of health, but are otherwise free to use any item they like, while Poison Heal must run Toxic Orb.
• Comatose treats Baneful Bunker as Protect. Poison Heal enjoys Baneful Bunker. Natural Cure might get poisoned, but it can switch out to cure it.
• All of them soft checks No Guard users, shrugging off statuses.
• Comatose can receive a Toxic Orb from Trick and laugh at it. Poison Heal will enjoy it. Natural Cure will be pissed off, but otherwise still work.
• Natural Cure can be used against Poison Heal users to cure them. Comatose can't do that.

I enjoyed a lot using Comatose on Giratina, as an opponent tried to use Spore, Zap Cannon, Dynamic Punch (wouldn't have worked anyway) and lastly tricked me a Toxic Orb. It's really a sturdy ability.

I agree with what you say about Comatose and I made a small test to test (please kill me) its viability.

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 224 HP / 76 Def / 208 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spectral Thief / Dragon Tail / Defog
- Glare / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / Spore
- Shore Up
- U-turn / Parting Shot

Physically defensive, specially defensive, up to you.
Still versatile.
Not versatile as Magic Bounce forms are, but guarantees much longer longevity.