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I believe the offensive non PH POgre sets are either PSea or Tinted as they have the most raw power and Blue Orb TBH is pretty bad as Download is a one time thing while Illusion doesn't have much power behind it. The PSea set requires no team support (apart from Improof and most likely an improof for the improof) but is weaker overall (Against Tina and opposing POgre) whereas the Tinted set on its own pressures resists (mainly Tina) but missing out on neutral OHKOs such as MAud and Regi. However, under rain there are next to 0 switch-ins to a 150 BP Water Spout, the only ones I can think of are Water Immune (Desoland mainly), Drought users (super rare), Other Weather users that resist, RegenVest Palkia (Takes a chunk though), and Imposter (with eviolite). Personally I like PSea and run Water Spout, Water Shuriken, Volt Switch, Moonblast and improof with PDon.
TBH POgre shouldn't really drop as it is one of the strongest defensive mons and is one of the few mons that can run both offensive sets and defensive sets, making it unpredictable. In addition, its special bulk is really good and its RegenVest sets can blanket check most special attackers (bar Psystrike and Mixed attackers) whereas the Unaware set can check some set up sweepers (not resisting Moongeist Geyser is unfortunate which is why MGyara is probably better). Its offensive variants can easily break teams that lack answers which, since it is pretty unique in terms of typing and stat spread, often require a specific answer.
The thing I liked about the Download Blue Orb set is that it can help it mix sweep, whereas Tinted Lens and Primordial Sea tends to be for special sweeping, maybe bar a surprise Spectral Thief. Different purpose for a different set.
Greninja may be a better Water Spout user for its Speed, and Dark STAB (Giratina) and can heal more off a slow pivot Wish. It’s Speed can also permit Specs for the power boost. But I agree, Kyogre should stay, although I do notice less of them lately.
I think PH is hindered by Core Enforcer on Unaware sets.
The point is that with max speed neutral nature it outspeeds nearly every defensive mons as they usually run min speed (or even level drop) for slow pivot so the speed behind Ashninja is not important in this aspect. In terms of mix sweep there aren't many specially defensive mons that can take a Water Spout in the first place and those that can are crippled when their AV is removed (Palkia isn't a thing) by a teammate (either for utility or for STAB, I run Mega TTar and Mega Aud to support) so it isn't very necessary to run Mixed Pogre. But it is more flexible the first time it comes in and does block Trickeroo and takes less from Knock Off, but I prefer the flexibility in having multiple opportunities to come in and break. Back to Ashninja it really misses out on a few key KOs that POgre gets and the Dark typing is more of a curse granting it weakness to Pixilate and the omnipresent U-Turn, immunity to Prankster is nice but Pogre forces out most of them anyway (Bar Prankster Tina). Wish is usually not a problem as 100 HP is nothing spectacular in BH and the bulk behind Pogre is much better than the Speed Tier. You can break Tina with Ashninja but with coverage Pogre doesn't have that much problem. Against defensive stuff Pogre is much better and even offensive stuff with Water Shuriken there is a lot of stuff you can RK and it even breaks sashes, its bulk also lets it live a hit to fire off a strong attack to either finish the opponent off or leave it prone to revenge kill.
Oh it looks like I didn't mention but both PSea and Tinted run Specs.
The point is that with max speed neutral nature it outspeeds nearly every defensive mons as they usually run min speed (or even level drop) for slow pivot so the speed behind Ashninja is not important in this aspect. In terms of mix sweep there aren't many specially defensive mons that can take a Water Spout in the first place and those that can are crippled when their AV is removed (Palkia isn't a thing) by a teammate (either for utility or for STAB, I run Mega TTar and Mega Aud to support) so it isn't very necessary to run Mixed Pogre. But it is more flexible the first time it comes in and does block Trickeroo and takes less from Knock Off, but I prefer the flexibility in having multiple opportunities to come in and break. Back to Ashninja it really misses out on a few key KOs that POgre gets and the Dark typing is more of a curse granting it weakness to Pixilate and the omnipresent U-Turn, immunity to Prankster is nice but Pogre forces out most of them anyway (Bar Prankster Tina). Wish is usually not a problem as 100 HP is nothing spectacular in BH and the bulk behind Pogre is much better than the Speed Tier. You can break Tina with Ashninja but with coverage Pogre doesn't have that much problem. Against defensive stuff Pogre is much better and even offensive stuff with Water Shuriken there is a lot of stuff you can RK and it even breaks sashes, its bulk also lets it live a hit to fire off a strong attack to either finish the opponent off or leave it prone to revenge kill.
Oh it looks like I didn't mention but both PSea and Tinted run Specs.
This is in regards to the Specs PSea set you mentioned with Water Spout: The only concern is that it can be hard to outspeed most things that would stay in against it. I appreciate your points but-
How does Kyogre force out Prankster? Spore stops Kyogre cold.
The same point on U-Turn on Greninja, can to an extent be made about Volt Switch on Kyogre (not to the same degree but it’s something to acknowledge).
Being slow, it’s vulnerable to Knock Off, and being attacked first which lowers the Specs’ set’s Water Spout, which equates to less damage. Sticky Webs won’t impact everything, as Flying types and Contrarian users don’t mind it. My concern is that because it is slower many things can remove its effective power, Scarf sets seem like a good option, but only beat Greninja on threats that are faster than Specs Greninja.
More importantly, Greninja outspeeds MMX, Normalize Gengar-Mega which hard stops anything except Water Shuriken, packs an Immunity to Psychic to outspeed Necrozma Ultimate (Contrarian Psycho Boost, Rain blocks V-Create/Overheat), and can take advantage of the Rain to threaten standards counters by using Thunder on opposing Gyarados-Mega, and Kyogre-Primal.
Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete in Heavy Rain: 508-598 (79.8 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Kartana is another threat Kyogre fears but Greninja outspeeds.
I think Water Spout needs team support, or Choice Scarf on Kyogre. Ash-Greninja, while more fragile, doesn’t require as much team support due to Speed alone. In an ideal situation with Sticky Webs support, Kyogre is hands-down better, but realistically, Ash-Greninja will be getting more hits in, and thus won’t need to fear losing HP and Water Spout Power. I see merits for both.
Alright let's address these points.
I was a bit not specific but the point was only prankster tina survives and all others straight up get koed by spout.
Ok guess what ash ninja is also weak to volt switch and no defensive mon except imposter lure zygod and swampert use volt switch, u turn is significantly better.
So as I mentioned already it should outspeed all walls even with a neutral nature because they run min speed and the idea is to bring it in safely using the omnipresent slow pivot. Th only faster mon that would utilize koff would be ttar that set up and that dies to shuriken.
Against faster threats it can utilize its bulk to tank and use either water shuriken twice or use moonblast/steam eruption. You also should have hazard control and wish support.
With ashninja bulk if you predict incorrectly like switch in on a draco or fleur you are screwed. Outspeeding mmx seems very nice until you get bopped with Mach punch (although mmx is a huge annoyance for pogre as well). Outspeeding gar is irrelevant because it switches in on your wall, clicks entrainment, and if you switch out your ashninja can't touch him and if you switch out after he set up and now outspeeds.
Why can't pogre use thunder? What makes ashninja a better user of it? Gyarados gets 2hko by spout and moonblast anyway. Only regenvest pogre should come in. And pogre, unlike ashninja, can ohko zygod with minor chip iirc.
Lol kartana dies to shuriken.
The only team support I use is red orb don for improof and ttar for offensive synergy to pressure tina and remove eviolite and vests.
"I was a bit not specific but the point was only prankster tina survives and all others straight up get koed by spout."
Prankster- Spore
"So as I mentioned already it should outspeed all walls even with a neutral nature because they run min speed and the idea is to bring it in safely using the omnipresent slow pivot. Th only faster mon that would utilize koff would be ttar that set up and that dies to shuriken."
Not all Defensive Pokémon carry Core Enforcer, Spectral Thief or U-Turn and want to go 2nd, instead these same Pokemon may carry Knock Off, Defog/Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Shore Up, Baneful Bunker, etc. or only go 2nd when using Dragon Tail, Circle Throw (specifically not lowering their Speed so they can outspeed other Dragon Tail/Circle Throw users).
Examples include Gyarados-Mega, Zygarde, and Giratina. Plus, Knock Off can be found on many offensive Pokemon you think you could switch Kyogre into, such as Arceus, as well as other faster Defensive Dark types such as Fur Coat/Unaware Yveltal.
1st: "Only regenvest pogre should come in."
2nd: "RegenVest Palkia (Takes a chunk though)."
Sturdinja, Palkia, PH Giratina, and once in your statement assumes you have the speed advantage, Kyogre is at 100% HP and that the opponent has no Focus Sash.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal - But throw in Spiky Shield for Healing another turn, and it's fine.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia in Heavy Rain: 134-158 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO and no need for RegenVest
1st: "Why can't pogre use thunder? What makes ashninja a better user of it? Gyarados gets 2hko by spout and moonblast anyway"
Thunder is in place of Volt Switch on Greninja because it wouldn’t be wise to fast pivot. Sure Kyogre can do the same, but since I am basing this off of your moveset listed below, I figured you wouldn't want Thunder and Volt Switch on the same Pokemon without it being Electric.
A.G.:Water Spout, Thunder, Dark Pulse, Filler (Ice Beam/Frost Breathe)
Your moveset on Kyogre:
2nd: “Personally I like PSea and run Water Spout, Water Shuriken, Volt Switch, Moonblast and improof with PDon.”
3rd: "Against faster threats it can utilize its bulk to tank and use either water shuriken twice or use moonblast/steam eruption."
If you use any 3 of those other attacks Kartana outspeeds and KOs with Power Whip as a check, since only Water Shuriken can go first. It seems either you assume the faster threat cannot KO (which if it doesn't will still weaken Water Spout),, or that you are Choice locked in Water Shuriken vs faster threats.
According to the moveset you provided, you didn't list Steam Eruption, so I assume Steam Eruption wouldn't be used... If so, which move gets replaced by Steam Eruption? Probably Water Shuriken since you don’t want 3 Water Moves on the same set. This makes your points on Water Shuriken moot.
Ash-Greninja can replace Water Shuriken with another coverage move as it’s already faster than most things that don’t use Dazzling (basically Pheromosa, and MMY carry Dazzling pretty frequently anyways; while MMX also carries it but it is slower regardless).
"Lol kartana dies to shuriken. "
Unless you are choice locked into something else, allowing it to come in and check Kyogre, while Greninja won't have to worry about it going first unless Kartana uses Scarf.
“Ok guess what ash ninja is also weak to volt switch and no defensive mon except imposter lure zygod and swampert use volt switch, u turn is significantly better.”
I know U-Turn is better, but Volt Switch can be used, and some pivots use it if their SpA is greater than their Attack which is why your Kyogre set uses it, right?
"Outspeeding mmx seems very nice until you get bopped with Mach punch (although mmx is a huge annoyance for pogre as well)."
Um, I don't run into those variants, except maybe like 1x ever, but point taken.
1st: "When their AV is removed (Palkia isn't a thing) by a teammate (either for utility or for STAB, I run Mega TTar and Mega Aud to support)"
2nd: "You also should have hazard control and wish support."
3rd: "The only team support I use is red orb don for improof and ttar for offensive synergy to pressure tina and remove eviolite and vests. "
So how much support then? So TTar, Aud, PDon = 3, and if none of them carry Wish + Defog/Rapid Spin, that means you need 4 support Pokemon. Add in Kyogre itself, and that's 5/6 of your team. Sounds like a lot of team support for 1 Pokemon.
1st: “With ashninja bulk if you predict incorrectly like switch in on a draco or fleur you are screwed.”
Um, if you switch in Kyogre on Fleur Cannon Necrozma-Ultimate you will lose power off of Water Spout, and fear a 2nd Draco Meteor at +2 going first. P.S. If it matters, before you say anything, Water Shuriken is resisted, and without Skill Link may only hit 2 times in 1 use.
Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, but then next turn they switch to
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 374-442 (92.5 - 109.4%) which KOs factoring in previous turn damage
2nd: "Outspeeding gar is irrelevant because it switches in on your wall, clicks entrainment, and if you switch out your ashninja can't touch him and if you switch out after he set up and now outspeeds."
Same goes for Kyogre, while for Greninja vs Gengar you could slow pivot Parting Shot, or Baton Pass to it, or have an ability immune to Entrain like Comatose, or Magic Bounce, or use Trick to disarm it and then switch to Greninja, which resists it's STAB Ghost moves. Or if both come in after a double-switch, or double KO (Destiny Bond). Kyogre is simply screwed without Water Shuriken being the move its choice locked into.
"And pogre, unlike ashninja, can ohko zygod with minor chip iirc."
Yes, but it can also pack Ice Beam (i.e. Zyagarde, Mega-Rayquaza), which can KO with minor Chip damage too.
TLDR: Both are great, but Greninja may have the advantage when it comes to Water Spout.
Prankster spore is fairly uncommon and you can usually scout the moveset with imposter or just throughout the game.
I think we both agree that we want to slow pivot this in, just like ashninja since they both want to be at max health.
If your slow pivot obviously underspeeds theirs but you moved first, don't go into pogre, common sense.
I was talking about your ph pogre calc, but yes those mons are a pain.
Volt switch is somewhat a filler move to do some chip on their defensive answer. Could run steam over it.
The point is to bring it in on a wall, kill something, switch out.
Ok the point on ashninjas bulk was poorly written, what I meant was that pogre is less punishing if you mispredict since it can tank and come back later with wish.
I was addressing your point on ashninja outspeeding gar but I guess you meant gar can't come in so fair point.
Now let me show you my team building process.
I started with Pogre, I added pdon for improof, I added ff ferro for improof of pdon and general check to ph, then I added ttar for a knock off and status absorber and offensive synergy with pogre, then I added audino for normgar check and wish support as well as general anti wall check, finally I added imposter with scarf to better handle set up sweepers. As you see, the only real team support is pdon as improof, ttar and audino are both very good mons by themselves.
I think we should settle this by agreeing that pogre is better as a wallbreaker while ashninja is slightly better against offense but in general pogre is better because it can offer more firepower and defensive utilities (also leaves opponent guessing at team preview)
Prankster spore is fairly uncommon and you can usually scout the moveset with imposter or just throughout the game.
I think we both agree that we want to slow pivot this in, just like ashninja since they both want to be at max health.
If your slow pivot obviously underspeeds theirs but you moved first, don't go into pogre, common sense.
I was talking about your ph pogre calc, but yes those mons are a pain.
Volt switch is somewhat a filler move to do some chip on their defensive answer. Could run steam over it.
The point is to bring it in on a wall, kill something, switch out.
Ok the point on ashninjas bulk was poorly written, what I meant was that pogre is less punishing if you mispredict since it can tank and come back later with wish.
I was addressing your point on ashninja outspeeding gar but I guess you meant gar can't come in so fair point.
Now let me show you my team building process.
I started with Pogre, I added pdon for improof, I added ff ferro for improof of pdon and general check to ph, then I added ttar for a knock off and status absorber and offensive synergy with pogre, then I added audino for normgar check and wish support as well as general anti wall check, finally I added imposter with scarf to better handle set up sweepers. As you see, the only real team support is pdon as improof, ttar and audino are both very good mons by themselves.
I think we should settle this by agreeing that pogre is better as a wallbreaker while ashninja is slightly better against offense but in general pogre is better because it can offer more firepower and defensive utilities (also leaves opponent guessing at team preview)
Greninja is a little more than slightly better against offense... Greninja outspeeds to 1HKO them; Kyogre risks losing its power when it goes second against Offensive threats (even if not Water Spout, it risks getting Knocked Off on Specs).
Kyogre is better against Defensive threats, but faster Offensive threats don’t care about the power drop in SpA on Greninja because their defenses aren’t enough to begin with.
What I agree on is how they serve different roles. Modest Kyogre with Scarf has to be better than Timid Greninja with Specs for Kyogre to outclass it. We haven’t discussed that, but until then I can’t say Greninja is only slightly better.
It 1HKO checks many things like MMX, Necrozma, Gengar, Kartana, Arceus, and other legitimate offensive threats that Kyogre is seriously threatened by.
Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Necrozma-Ultra: 356-422 (89.4 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 433-510 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Heavy Rain: 490-577 (117.7 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 308-366 (61.1 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 324-382 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dark Pulse is regardless of weather and HP level
TLDR: I agree they are better at different things, with Greninja being a noticeable gap ahead of Kyogre for Offensive threats, and Kyogre being a noticeable gap ahead against Defensive threats.
I think for most bulky, stall, and balanced teams Kyogre works, regardless of set. For HO teams that need a powerful and fast sweeper with good self-sufficient coverage and minimal support - Greninja can fill the fast sweeper role, where Pheromosa, Deoxys-A, etc. would have been...
Greninja also keeps people guessing at Team Preview as well: because it is less common, while running a variety of sets: King’s Rock Beat-Up, Simple/Unburden Shell Smash Power Trip, Mega Launcher Origin Pulse, and Primordial Sea, so many people wonder what its going to do.
E4 Flint I just noticed that in the second post of this thread psychic surge is still considered legal (like on MMX/Y). Shouldn't that be removed? Or changed with something else?
E4 Flint I just noticed that in the second post of this thread psychic surge is still considered legal (like on MMX/Y). Shouldn't that be removed? Or changed with something else?
Nominating Groudon to move up to at least A- and perhaps A. Groudon-p is the strongest Fire-typein the metagame thanks to having double stab with desolate land. It also has insane bulk for such a strong attacker at 100/160/100 which lets it survive some hits such as MMY's Life Orb Psycho boost (252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 341-403 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and OHKO back. Sun boosted v-create hits ridiculously hard as well, hitting non-FC Giratina for at least 35% with no setup and a neutral nature. The bulk also allows it to offensively check Diancie-Mega and Kyurem-B, as it can survive any of their coverage or stab moves, from about 60%. The choice of pre-primal ability is also very nice for it because you can choose to run illusion to become imposterproof, Electric Surge to power up bolt strike one time, or Download for a stat boost (I don't really like this because it gets spectral thiefed from you too often, and you usually get a special attack boost which isn't as useful unless you run offensive). Pdon's stats are also really good allowing you to run both an offensive set with shell smash and 3 coverage moves to destroy just about everything in the metagame including Giratina and Zygarde-C (they die to+2 fleur cannon), or a bulkier defensive shift gear tank set that can wallbreak early game then sweep late game. You can easily improof it as well, such as with Fur Coat Zygarde-C for the bulky Shift Gear set or with a FF steel for the Shell Smash set (you can't run thousand arrows then, but the extra power from other moves is nice anyways). The biggest roadblock to Groudon-p is mega Rayquaza, which is strong enough to force it out and bulky enough to take a hit from it. You can also run Stealth Rock on it, because it threatens common magic Bounce users with an OHKO. Groudon-P pairs really well with -ate users because it pressures Steel-types that woud otherwise wall them while the -ate user is threatening to dragons, so they break each other's checks with absurd ease.
other Groudon sets are also viable, such as Soundproof and FC. I really like FC Groudon because of the non-weakness to ice and Fairy moves. The additional water and grass weakness isn't generally that applicable since there are very few physical water or grass attacks in the meta.
TLDR: Groudon is well-deserving of A ranking. At least A-.
Imo this is a misleading thing to say because it implies the DesoLand is something that makes pdon stronger than other fire types - all of which can also run a sun ability... or anything else they choose to use so saying this makes it stronger is silly. Also in terms of immediate damage it isn't the strongest since other fire types have the luxury of items (unless you are specifically talking about the one situation where you have the potential download boost):
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Harsh Sunshine: 178-210 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Flame Plate Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Harsh Sunshine: 195-229 (30.6 - 36%) -- 48.7% chance to 3HKO
I know this example is contrived but it shows the point.
I agree that Red Orb don is a perfectly viable sweeper and is very effective against a lot of teams but imo A rank is too high due to it being pretty predictable and the illusion set only being improof once which means you have to be very careful in case they have a good answer in the back while the other sets I find to be lacklustre thanks to the prevalence of the bulky dragons, especially giratina which doesnt have the 4x weakness to help get around it. For that reason I would consider A rank too high (same as mega diancie, really? although this will surely change). B+ or A- seem fine to me
Side note:
(However since ranks are defined by the Pokemon in them with no other description it is really hard to say where something should be in a hypothetical future VR where the things you are comparing to have possibly moved. I feel that a short description of what each rank is for would be helpful to give a clearer way of thinking about it.)
Actually red orb pdon isn't as predictable as it was last gen because it can either run bulky shift gear with STAB moves and Synthesis, which is the standard set, or replace synthesis with a physical move like Solar Blade or olt Strike which can bop Kyogre. But it is also quite able to run a Shell Smash set with Fleur Cannon, which can OHKO Giratina and Zygarde-C after Stealth Rock if set up, and then sweep through the rest of the team easily enough. That set is also really good at clearing the way for other physical attackers like MMX that would otherwise be walled. That's why I think it deserves A rank, because it can easily get past its most common counters by changing its set. I could even see the appeal in running two Pdons, one of them to remove Giratina and Zyg-c and the other to sewep afterwords.
Pedantry Warning: Read at own risk.
Imo this is a misleading thing to say because it implies the DesoLand is something that makes pdon stronger than other fire types - all of which can also run a sun ability... or anything else they choose to use so saying this makes it stronger is silly. Also in terms of immediate damage it isn't the strongest since other fire types have the luxury of items (unless you are specifically talking about the one situation where you have the potential download boost):
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Harsh Sunshine: 178-210 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Flame Plate Blaziken-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Harsh Sunshine: 195-229 (30.6 - 36%) -- 48.7% chance to 3HKO
I know this example is contrived but it shows the point.
It has 100/160/90 bulk.
Ground types are weak to Ice.
I agree that Red Orb don is a perfectly viable sweeper and is very effective against a lot of teams but imo A rank is too high due to it being pretty predictable and the illusion set only being improof once which means you have to be very careful in case they have a good answer in the back while the other sets I find to be lacklustre thanks to the prevalence of the bulky dragons, especially giratina which doesnt have the 4x weakness to help get around it. For that reason I would consider A rank too high (same as mega diancie, really? although this will surely change). B+ or A- seem fine to me
Side note:
(However since ranks are defined by the Pokemon in them with no other description it is really hard to say where something should be in a hypothetical future VR where the things you are comparing to have possibly moved. I feel that a short description of what each rank is for would be helpful to give a clearer way of thinking about it.)
But when it goes Primal Immediately, it isn’t weak to Ice, and on first switch in it is resistant to Stealth Rocks (Pure Ground Typing in Base form). Also, many 1x use strategies work and are standard sets for that Pokémon, Unburden, Focus Sash, Z-moves for coverage, and I personally like form changes like a Mega or a Necrozma form change to the ultimate form (Simple Base form, then final form that outspeeds the Base form when Imposter switches in with Eviolite or Lucky Punch).
I also know that Red Orb Groudon fills a niche only pure Normal, Electric, and Sabeleye-Mega can: 1 Weakness. Plus it’s immune to burn as a Status, which other Grounds (beyond Camerupt) cannot, and this can be useful against No Guard Inferno, Serene Grace Sacred Fire, etc.
You are right overall, but Groudon is special because of its form change and ability. Blaziken cannot use Ground moves like Groudon can, Garchomp-Mega cannot use V-Create like Groudon-Primal can.
Plus bulk makes up for lack of an item, and Morning Sun makes up for lack of another defensive Ability (I.e. No Contrarian to boost defenses with V-Create. Immune to Trick, not threatened by Knock Off, a Fire Type not weak to Stealth Rock, etc.
I like your points, just didn’t want to skip the real reasons people aim to use it in a team of just 6 slots.
Still, I agree A may be too high because that would assume it is a standard on most teams. B+ makes more sense than A-, it’s just not common enough to be A, and it’s not common enough because others can handle what it does: Fighting for Steel Types (MMX), etc.
I think another option for Mega Lucario besides Steelworker would be Technician. With it, Storm Throw, Gear Grind, Bonemerang, and Frost Breathe all become 135 Base Power at minimum, while either bypassing Substitutes, Sturdy and Focus Sashes, or bypassing it’s Attack stat drops and enemy defense buffs.
In fact, Frost Breathe can now 1-2HKO many former counters and checks to Lucario such as Giratina, Zygarde, and Yveltal, plus handle Venusaur-Mega and Lugia.
No stat boosts Frost Breathe:
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpDZygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 608-717 (95.5 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 325-385 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Which is better than a Steelworker Sunsteel Strike on a Bold Nature Yveltal:
252+ Atk Life Orb Steelworker Lucario-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 283-335 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 283-335 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And with a +SpD Nature with Poison Heal Giratina is still 2HKOed.
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 260-307 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Venusaur-Mega on a critical hit: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia on a critical hit: 237-281 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No boost: Gear Grind:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 250-296 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No Stat Boost Boomerang:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 380-452 (79.4 - 94.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 344-406 (86.4 - 102%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 292-344 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 302-358 (93.2 - 110.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Factoring in a Positive Nature
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No Stat Boost Storm Throw:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus on a critical hit: 478-564 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel on a critical hit: 369-437 (101.3 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 289-341 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 242-286 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The advantage of Steelworker is 100% SunSteel Strike, and Bullet Punch, while the advantage of Technician is Frost Breathe, being able to break Substitutes with Gear Grind, add coverage with Bonemerang, and use Storm Throw for 135 Base power over Close Combat’s 120 (and no defense drops).
Adaptability makes Close Combat outdo Technician Storm Throw, but Technician Gear Grind does more than Adaptability Sunsteel Strike.
The purpose of my post is to have Technician added to Lucario’s VR ability slashed listing. The power is still there, and the coverage afforded by its ability changes what can safely call itself a Counter or Check to Luke the Nuke, I.e. Zygarde is 1HKOed and Giratina is 2HKOed in all scenarios with Stealth Rocks, plus PDon is almost a 1HKO.
Perhaps based on previous posts. Primordial Sea and Mega Launcher could be added to Greninja-Ash, beside Dazzling. The purpose is that new moves are afforded to it and thus it can be used to surprise its switch-ins. (Yes I have seen others use Mega Launcher and sometimes PSea on A-Greninja, and not because of what I posted)
But when it goes Primal Immediately, it isn’t weak to Ice, and on first switch in it is resistant to Stealth Rocks (Pure Ground Typing in Base form). Also, many 1x use strategies work and are standard sets for that Pokémon, Unburden, Focus Sash, Z-moves for coverage, and I personally like form changes like a Mega or a Necrozma form change to the ultimate form (Simple Base form, then final form that outspeeds the Base form when Imposter switches in with Eviolite or Lucky Punch).
I also know that Red Orb Groudon fills a niche only pure Normal, Electric, and Sabeleye-Mega can: 1 Weakness. Plus it’s immune to burn as a Status, which other Grounds (beyond Camerupt) cannot, and this can be useful against No Guard Inferno, Serene Grace Sacred Fire, etc.
You are right overall, but Groudon is special because of its form change and ability. Blaziken cannot use Ground moves like Groudon can, Garchomp-Mega cannot use V-Create like Groudon-Primal can.
Plus bulk makes up for lack of an item, and Morning Sun makes up for lack of another defensive Ability (I.e. No Contrarian to boost defenses with V-Create. Immune to Trick, not threatened by Knock Off, a Fire Type not weak to Stealth Rock, etc.
I like your points, just didn’t want to skip the real reasons people aim to use it in a team of just 6 slots.
Still, I agree A may be too high because that would assume it is a standard on most teams. B+ makes more sense than A-, it’s just not common enough to be A, and it’s not common enough because others can handle what it does: Fighting for Steel Types (MMX), etc.
I think another option for Mega Lucario besides Steelworker would be Technician. With it, Storm Throw, Gear Grind, Bonemerang, and Frost Breathe all become 135 Base Power at minimum, while either bypassing Substitutes, Sturdy and Focus Sashes, or bypassing it’s Attack stat drops and enemy defense buffs.
In fact, Frost Breathe can now 1-2HKO many former counters and checks to Lucario such as Giratina, Zygarde, and Yveltal, plus handle Venusaur-Mega and Lugia.
No stat boosts Frost Breathe:
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpDZygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 608-717 (95.5 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 325-385 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Which is better than a Steelworker Sunsteel Strike on a Bold Nature Yveltal:
252+ Atk Life Orb Steelworker Lucario-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 283-335 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 283-335 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And with a +SpD Nature with Poison Heal Giratina is still 2HKOed.
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 260-307 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Venusaur-Mega on a critical hit: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia on a critical hit: 237-281 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No boost: Gear Grind:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 250-296 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No Stat Boost Boomerang:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 380-452 (79.4 - 94.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 344-406 (86.4 - 102%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 292-344 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 302-358 (93.2 - 110.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Factoring in a Positive Nature
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No Stat Boost Storm Throw:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus on a critical hit: 478-564 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel on a critical hit: 369-437 (101.3 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 289-341 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 242-286 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The advantage of Steelworker is 100% SunSteel Strike, and Bullet Punch, while the advantage of Technician is Frost Breathe, being able to break Substitutes with Gear Grind, add coverage with Bonemerang, and use Storm Throw for 135 Base power over Close Combat’s 120 (and no defense drops).
Adaptability makes Close Combat outdo Technician Storm Throw, but Technician Gear Grind does more than Adaptability Sunsteel Strike.
The purpose of my post is to have Technician added to Lucario’s VR ability slashed listing. The power is still there, and the coverage afforded by its ability changes what can safely call itself a Counter or Check to Luke the Nuke, I.e. Zygarde is 1HKOed and Giratina is 2HKOed in all scenarios with Stealth Rocks, plus PDon is almost a 1HKO.
Perhaps based on previous posts. Primordial Sea and Mega Launcher could be added to Greninja-Ash, beside Dazzling. The purpose is that new moves are afforded to it and thus it can be used to surprise its switch-ins. (Yes I have seen others use Mega Launcher and sometimes PSea on A-Greninja, and not because of what I posted)
Wouldn't Lucario want to run Naive or Hasty, as to outspeed say max speed Diance, neutral Arceus, Regigigas/Slaking/Kanga, and neutral MRay? These seem like some mons you'd want to hit first as Lucario's defenses aren't stellar.
Wouldn't Lucario want to run Naive or Hasty, as to outspeed say max speed Diance, neutral Arceus, Regigigas/Slaking/Kanga, and neutral MRay? These seem like some mons you'd want to hit first as Lucario's defenses aren't stellar.
If it’s Shell Smash, it won’t need to.
Ray/Diancie is only slower if it isn’t Triage/-ate (Hasty Nature makes it take more from X-Speed, Naive for Oblivion Wing), Arceus usually has a +Spe Nature, Regigas and Slaking often run Shift Gear (so if you switch it in, they will have likely boosted on the switch, plus if Lucario uses Shell Smash, then they can Spectral Thief), Kanga isn’t as common, and most people wouldn’t switch a normal type into Lucario.
If Lucario switched into Nature’s Madness and lost 75% of its HP, it would be vulnerable to priority and Spiky Shield.
I would prefer to just use Sticky Webs for support, as none of them carry Contrary and none are Flying Types (besides Ray who is too often Triage/-ate), than run a +Spe Nature... 1 hazard support makes all the difference.
Think of Lucario as a mid-late game cleaner. Without +Atk it loses on some of these KOs, so if you went Hasty you would need Choice Band, and then if you have that then it won’t be able to boost Frost Breathe via Life Orb, and that’s crucial to maintain 1-2HKOs like on Zygarde and Giratina.
Your set suffers from severe 4mss. Without smash you get outsped by a lot of mons and cannot break bulky fur coats (some) nor sweep. Without gear grind you become a joke, same with storm throw (stabs are pretty good), without bonemerang aegislash laughs at you and without frost breath zygod laughs at you.
Your set suffers from severe 4mss. Without smash you get outsped by a lot of mons and cannot break bulky fur coats (some) nor sweep. Without gear grind you become a joke, same with storm throw (stabs are pretty good), without bonemerang aegislash laughs at you and without frost breath zygod laughs at you.
Well, without Shell Smash, you would use Sticky web (different set means different team support), thus only Contrarian and Flying Types would outspeed.
Frost Breathe > Fur Coat: Giratina, Yveltal, and Zygarde are targeted by Frost Breathe. (Lugia too?)...
Gear Grind, Storm Throw, and Frost Breathe are required, thus 4 moveslots syndrome doesn’t impact those.
So it’s really just between Shell Smash and Bonemerang. Aegislash uses Flash Fire most of the time, so it wouldn’t likely carry Fur Coat for Bonemerang, Groudon-Primal is stuck with Desolate Land.
What Fur Coat users are you referring to? Most Kyogre opt for Poison Heal.
Without Bonemerang, it’s free to use Shell Smash, so if you have already used Shell Smash, it negates the Defense Boost from Fur Coat.
I guess for Chansey...
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey on a critical hit: 455-538 (64.8 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I wasn't saying fur coat Aegi just that aegi hard walls you if you don't carry bonemerang and it can freely recover and spectral you.
In terms of what walls you there is fur coat pogre (ph is offensive which is not comparable), megabro (any set would work), fur coat megapert etc (basically anything that resist gear grind and is not weak to other moves work). Also running 4 attacks leaves you with a lot less breaking potential and with megaray so common you are going to be rked pretty easily not to mention that defog and spin are pretty common
Anyway seeing that Luke only has 2 abilities I guess technician can be slapped on
I wasn't saying fur coat Aegi just that aegi hard walls you if you don't carry bonemerang and it can freely recover and spectral you.
In terms of what walls you there is fur coat pogre (ph is offensive which is not comparable), megabro (any set would work), fur coat megapert etc (basically anything that resist gear grind and is not weak to other moves work). Also running 4 attacks leaves you with a lot less breaking potential and with megaray so common you are going to be rked pretty easily not to mention that defog and spin are pretty common
Anyway seeing that Luke only has 2 abilities I guess technician can be slapped on
My calculations prove Lucario can 2HKO all of the Pokémon you mentioned at +2, with Fur Coat... I already did No boosts in my other posts, plus for a few below I included both +2 boosts and no boosts.
Calcs:
Swampert-Mega:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Swampert-Mega on a critical hit: 299-352 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not bad for a non-STAB Neutral Attack ^_^
Slowbro-Mega:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro-Mega on a critical hit: 183-217 (46.4 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Aegislash-Shield:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-132 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- approx. 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Shell Smash on their switch in, they Spectral Thief after you Gear Grind. Next turn you 1HKO with another Gear Grind.
Kyogre:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Lucario-Mega Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So after a single Shell Smash Kyogre can Check Lucario but certainly not Counter it.
These Calcs also prove that because they all take over 66.67% Damage, even if the foe uses Spectral Thief, Topsy Turvey, King’s Shield, Burn via Scald, Haze, etc. that the next turn they would still be KOed.
As for Mega Ray, that’s like saying since Mega Diancie and Kyurem-B are common (especially when combining their uses in total), that Mega Ray shouldn’t be used.
Boomburst + Aerilate + Sharp Beak = 302.4 Base Power
Gear Grind + Technician + Life Orb = 292.5 Base Power
+Atk Luc = 427 Atk, +Spe Mega Ray = 459 Atk.
Mega Ray barely > Mega Luc, and doesn’t use set up moves for its strongest attack, so if Mega Ray doesn’t need them, then Luc shouldn’t either. But even if it needed to, I did already slash Shell Smash on Luc...
Advantages over its other sets/Pokémon-
Crit bypasses stat drops (Topsy Turvey, Parting Shot, King’s Shield), viable mixed sweeping means Burns don’t end its use, multi-hit breaks Subs/Sturdy/Focus Sash, and Lucario takes 3.125% from Stealth Rocks, immune to Poison/Toxic, Sandstream, and its weakest move is 135 Base power without STAB.
ok that was a joke. anyway the problem i see with tech lucario is that it doesn't really have a niche over tech mmx in the meta.
now i know you're gonna reply "but muh stab gear grind" or something more verbose, but mmx doesn't really have a problem with fairies either because the listed set runs sunsteel strike. xern can't switch in on any attack:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas on a critical hit: 156-185 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xerneas on a critical hit: 159-187 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 309-367 (67.7 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even on two min rolls, xern dies. if xern is leftovers, relaxed, and/or poison heal, it can potentially switch in but 1) you 100% lose if they sunsteel on the switch and 2) you have to be at really high hp, like i'm talking 90+
mmx 2hkos all the other fairies in the meta with storm throw because they don't resist fighting. also, it kills shed with sunsteel, has higher stats all around, and can bluff actual sets (like dazzling to scare ray).
it's just an all around better mon. lucario's only niche over it is its ability to ohko fairies rather than 2hko them. if you're using lucario over mmx for the sole reason that it resists sr or has a sandstorm immunity or whatever then you've got your priorities mixed up.
unrelated but "oh it can't switch in after you shell smash" isn't really an argument. if i have mega lucario and my opponent has mega bro, they're 100% gonna switch it in immediately instead of after i click shell smash. because of this, lucario is very unlikely to sweep if the opponent can keep their slowbro healthy.
also unrelated but if you want you can use snarl to hit both bro and aegi. your opponent will laugh at you for using snarl mmx/lucario though
ok that was a joke. anyway the problem i see with tech lucario is that it doesn't really have a niche over tech mmx in the meta.
now i know you're gonna reply "but muh stab gear grind" or something more verbose, but mmx doesn't really have a problem with fairies either because the listed set runs sunsteel strike. xern can't switch in on any attack:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas on a critical hit: 156-185 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Mewtwo-Mega-X Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xerneas on a critical hit: 159-187 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 309-367 (67.7 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even on two min rolls, xern dies. if xern is leftovers, relaxed, and/or poison heal, it can potentially switch in but 1) you 100% lose if they sunsteel on the switch and 2) you have to be at really high hp, like i'm talking 90+
mmx 2hkos all the other fairies in the meta with storm throw because they don't resist fighting. also, it kills shed with sunsteel, has higher stats all around, and can bluff actual sets (like dazzling to scare ray).
it's just an all around better mon. lucario's only niche over it is its ability to ohko fairies rather than 2hko them. if you're using lucario over mmx for the sole reason that it resists sr or has a sandstorm immunity or whatever then you've got your priorities mixed up.
unrelated but "oh it can't switch in after you shell smash" isn't really an argument. if i have mega lucario and my opponent has mega bro, they're 100% gonna switch it in immediately instead of after i click shell smash. because of this, lucario is very unlikely to sweep if the opponent can keep their slowbro healthy.
also unrelated but if you want you can use snarl to hit both bro and aegi. your opponent will laugh at you for using snarl mmx/lucario though
if they take over 66.7% or more (like Aegislash) on the turn they Spectral Thief, then the next hit will be enough to KO then (let’s assume Stealth Rocks negates Leftovers), so it could Shell Smash on their switch in and still 2HKO them.
1 reason Lucario can be used over MMX is the neutral coverage Gear Grind provides (factoring it’s coverage moves for resisted hits like Storm Throw vs Steels) at 225 Base Power while Mewtwo’s greatest Base power is 195 Base power. So Mewtwo isn’t just losing out on KOs vs Fairy-Types, it’s losing out on KOs vs whatever it would have hit neutrally because it wouldn’t include Gear Grind in its moveset: most Psychics: MMY, Cresselia, Lunala/Dawn-Wings Necrozma, etc. (resists MMX’s Storm Throw, so it would need to settle for Frost Breathe), Sabeleye-Mega, Hoopa-Unbound, Muk-Alola.
Also, what is the full moveset for your MMX? Since it has Frost Breathe, Circle Throw, and SunSteel Strike, I assume you have a 4th set up move?
So no Photon Geyser, Bonemerang?
In that case: Aegislash, Dusk-Mane Nocrozma, Tapu Fini, Blacephalon, Pheromosa.
I wasn’t saying Lucario is > everything, the advantages listed at the bottom were in part compared to its other sets, as well as in general not having a vulnerability to Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, and not being weak to -Ate.
MMX is weak to Aerilate/Pixelate, so your points about Xerneas assume it isn’t Pixelate, and that other Fairies don’t carry Pixelate (Diancie-Mega). That is only gaurantees to be true for Audino-Mega because it is Defensive... I have seen Magearna with Pixelate too.
MMX is also weak to more common moves like Moongeist Beam, Spectral Thief, Oblivion Wing, and Magic Guard Light of Ruin (MMY).
Instead of ignoring the disadvantages of MMX, let’s be fair and highlight the cons and pros of both sides...
Technician should be slashed with Steelworker because Steelworker Sunsteel Strike Damage = Technician Gear Grind Damage. Lucario can benefit more from the additional coverage moves that get a boost, like Storm Throw and Frost Breathe. I know MMX has more viablility in general, it’s just about finding what works for Lucario that wasn’t already mentioned. We have a set that only promotes Steel moves, why not add something that can function with similar if not better damage, while also threatening some of its checks?
As for Dark Moves, Assurance (if they switch into Hazards), or Punishment (if they switch in then you are going second), are much better than Snarl.
