Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[SiceXV]

lmao

lol i never said urishifu should be banned, but I guess I sort of agree with you with the Serene Grace point from a tier standpoint.

M24 "The banning of abilities has no precedent in 1v1, and barely in OU (Shadow Tag/Arena Trap being an exception, due to the effect they have against the entire nature of switching).". 1v1 is obviously different from 6v6, some abilities are just better in 1v1 then they are in 6's like sturdy and serene grace. My whole stance on Serene Grace is that it's just uncompetitive in a 1v1 setting and you're relying on luck for your secondary effect to pop. I don't see how Serene Grace effects chansey (I might be wrong), I've never seen dunsparce ever but it also has twave and air slash lmao, and Blissy your just fishing for status. I don't know how that's competitive in a 1v1 setting but ig tiering policies.

For Cinderace, we don't affect any of the actual tiers so I don't see any reason to not unban it, and I also agreed with all of Christo's points in terms of 1v1, but not 6v6. I just think cinderace would be a positive presence in the metagame with dealing with the big threats dominating most teams rn. Sacrificing a good mon for its 2nd evolution niche doesn't make any sense to me, not going to dwell on this idk I think it's just me being stubborn council can do their thing.

Also, there's only one major SS tournament (currently going on rn) til crown tundra so I think we should wait

 

[Ehmcee]

My whole stance on Serene Grace is that it's just uncompetitive in a 1v1 setting and you're relying on luck for your secondary effect to pop. I don't see how Serene Grace effects chansey (I might be wrong), I've never seen dunsparce ever but it also has twave and air slash lmao, and Blissy your just fishing for status. I don't know how that's competitive in a 1v1 setting but ig tiering policies.

In my opinion , serene grace only really pushes secondary effects over the edge whenever it boosts the secondary effect to 50% chance or over.
Only having a 20% or 40% chance at a wincon will usually give your opponent the advantage straight away.
(You're entirely free to disagree with my on this, but 20% freeze chance ice beams and ancient powers are really, really unreliable).

So in what instances do moves have over 50% chance of activating their secondary effects?

Togekiss

Air Slash, Body Slam, Headbutt, Rock Smash,

/

Egg

Body Slam, Headbutt, Iron Tail, Rock Slide, Thunder, Rock Smash,

God

Air Slash, Body Slam, Headbutt, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, Thunder, Astonish, Bite, Charge Beam (Technically already did, but now is 100%), Iron Tail, Rock Smash,

The only real cases, where moves will create an edge for the player abusing serene grace are in situations where the move will flinch, (And technically paralysis I guess, but these all learn thunder wave as well).

And once you consider that flinchspam essentially requires you to be faster (Unless you decide to paralysis as well, which gives your opponent a free turn, which neither dunsparce or the blissey line can afford). This elimininates the blissey line and the dunsparce line of ever being able to reliably use this tactic, since they have a speed stat below 60.

Togekiss on the other hand, not only has speed stat of 80, but also has the bulk to live almost every non super effective hit with some bulk, which means that even if it doesn't get the 57% (95% of 60%) roll, it'll usually be able to get another try. Pair this with paralysis, and you have a 67.75% chance of invalidating the opponent's turn (25%(95%(60%(75%)))). Unless the opposing mon is scarfed and has higher speed than togekiss.

Which means that the only inherant Serene Grace abuser with a reliable (more than 50%) win condition is Togekiss.

(And the problem child )

 

[nolenot]

tbh theres point in suspecting toge instead of qbing it, we all know it's getting banned if theres a suspect, and it's just a waste of time to suspect it when a qb will have the same result with less hassle.

 

[DMPancake]

Urshifu should be shown as either rapid or single strike on team preview. It makes absolutely no sense that this one pokemon is the only one to have different forms not displayed at team preview.

Here's a selection of some Pokemon with different forms that are shown at team preview:

• Deoxys has 4 different forms with different stats and moves, each of which are displayed correctly.
• Rotom has 6 different forms, with each form having a different secondary type and adjusted stats. Each form is displayed correctly.
• Shaymin has an alternate form with an additional type, different ability, different movepool, and is displayed correctly.
• The forces of nature trio have an alternate form that changes their ability and stats, and they are displayed correctly.
• Kyurem has two alternate forms which completely change the pokemon's stats and used moves. They're displayed correctly.
• The different Zygarde forms are unique in stats, and are displayed correctly.
• Hoopa changes stats and typing in its alternate form, and it's displayed correctly.
• The different Necrozma forms have different typing, and are displayed correctly.
• Alolan and Galarian forms of pokemon are properly distinguished at team preview.
• Even Pokemon with purely cosmetic alternate forms (Vivillon, Gastrodon/Shellos, Deerling/Sawsbuck, the Flabebe line, the different Minior cores, etc.) are distinguished at team preview.

While some of these pokemon have alt forms that are a little too strong for 1v1's meta (kyurem and necrozma), it should be blatantly obvious why different pokemon's forms should be shown. Imagine a tournament match and your opponent has a Rotom, and you think "alright, which of the 6 Rotom forms is my opponent using?" Or if every time your opponent used a pokemon with a regional form, you had to guess if it was original or alolan/galarian? Urshifu's form remaining unspecified in team preview is an anomaly when compared to its peers, and should be adjusted to fix this issue.

 

[zioziotrip]

Urshifu should be shown as either rapid or single strike on team preview. It makes absolutely no sense that this one pokemon is the only one to have different forms not displayed at team preview.

Here's a selection of some Pokemon with different forms that are shown at team preview:

• Deoxys has 4 different forms with different stats and moves, each of which are displayed correctly.
• Rotom has 6 different forms, with each form having a different secondary type and adjusted stats. Each form is displayed correctly.
• Shaymin has an alternate form with an additional type, different ability, different movepool, and is displayed correctly.
• The forces of nature trio have an alternate form that changes their ability and stats, and they are displayed correctly.
• Kyurem has two alternate forms which completely change the pokemon's stats and used moves. They're displayed correctly.
• The different Zygarde forms are unique in stats, and are displayed correctly.
• Hoopa changes stats and typing in its alternate form, and it's displayed correctly.
• The different Necrozma forms have different typing, and are displayed correctly.
• Alolan and Galarian forms of pokemon are properly distinguished at team preview.
• Even Pokemon with purely cosmetic alternate forms (Vivillon, Gastrodon/Shellos, Deerling/Sawsbuck, the Flabebe line, the different Minior cores, etc.) are distinguished at team preview.

While some of these pokemon have alt forms that are a little too strong for 1v1's meta (kyurem and necrozma), it should be blatantly obvious why different pokemon's forms should be shown. Imagine a tournament match and your opponent has a Rotom, and you think "alright, which of the 6 Rotom forms is my opponent using?" Or if every time your opponent used a pokemon with a regional form, you had to guess if it was original or alolan/galarian? Urshifu's form remaining unspecified in team preview is an anomaly when compared to its peers, and should be adjusted to fix this issue.

Policy pretty blatantly states that altering how the cartridge works isn't allowed.

 

[DMPancake]

Policy pretty blatantly states that altering how the cartridge works isn't allowed.

fuck. didnt know that was how it works on cartridge.

pokemon company please fix, this is dumb as hell

 

[Boat]

Alright i stayed up all night playing DLC 2 meta so heres a starting point for americans who are just waking up. this is heavily opinionated and is absolutely not a comprehensive list. theres a lot of good stuff around rn so heres the most notable.

zygod beats a lot, its probably broken, EVs arent optimized but those are the good moves imo. as far as im concerned, this mon is the most pressing issue for council. haban + power construct + boosting is fucking stupid

set

Zygarde @ Haban Berry
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 140 HP / 112 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Marshadow - 2nd best mon, runs whatever it damn well pleases. Roseli and Life Orb are the two biggest ones. Both run Bulk Up and/or Will O, Poltergeist or Spectral Thief, CC, and a really flexible last move, often Shadow Sneak. i dont have optimized EVs but its marsh, anything you do will work. sub liechi is good too.

Hide

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat

dnite - quite good, doesnt like zygod lando and especially ice horse. great for marshadow. too many sets to list, pretty much all u need is DD dualwingbeat and outrage though

Fini - best Tapu, beats marshadow dnite zygod landorusT icehorse tran hexhorse and some necro. very good mon because its surrounded by ground and dragon types.

set

Tapu Fini @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 60 SpA / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Surf

mag - extraordinarily good in a meta with hella dragons, horses cant touch it either. I really like ID CM stored draining, but it can do scarf specs encore or w/e it wants.

Hide

Magearna @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 180 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power

genesect is good, doesnt like marsh but likes all the steel types that cant rly touch it

Hide

Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 132 SpA / 120 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon

ice horse - better avalugg, runs WP or band, best dnite counter.

Hide

Glastrier @ Choice Band
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Heavy Slam
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower

ghost horse - sub disable + hex will o or sball taunt

hexhorse

Spectrier @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Disable
- Hex

landoT - fsr im the only one using this. band is very good, beating marsh dnite mag tran in 1 slot

set is optimized

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 76 HP / 132 Atk / 164 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fly / Superpower
- Iron Tail

necrozma - does what it always does; everything. specs is a good marsh answer if you are fat enough, but it can do all its old tricks.

Hide

Necrozma @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 96 SpA / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Prismatic Laser
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power

https://pokepast.es/a103071ddeb6acab
https://pokepast.es/2c5cc2d1cce55db7
heres some teams you can use if you dont wanna build, they feel good to use.

 

[Snowjy]

Please, please ban Marshadow. I’ve been enlightened them weird ass horses aren’t even edit: broken.

 

[zioziotrip]

ok been playing and talking about crown tundra so I wanted to give input on bans maybe expect like a more metagame-report type deal later

Clear Brokens


This mon is absurd. It got Poltergiest which means it now has two excellent stabs, awesome! There's not a lot that actually beats it, some faires/flyings/necro excluded. So far, sets that have been used are LO, CB, and Sub Reversal. Sub Reversal especially is quite ludicrous since even if slower mons can take a LO/CB hit they will not be taking a +1 Reversal unless they resist it. Also seen talk of AV and Wisp Ice Punch being ran so you can beat "counters" like Dnite, Lando, and Regieleki. Overall, quite an absurd mon hope it's not here for long!


why why why why why does it have this typing and movepool jesus christ. The movepool is beyond insane on this mon it's able to drop a lot of supposed checks off it. Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Trick, Encore, Fleur Cannon, Trick Room, CM, ID, Shift Gear, Flash Cannon, and even niche options like Shadow Ball there's not much else to ask for. Add this to a mon w/ the best typing in the game and a beyond ludicrous stat spread barring HP and you have a recipe for destruction. The addition of Encore/Trick invalidated the idea of stall mons checking this mon and now that leaves us with shit that OHKOs it, that list is short however. Most fires+grounds and some exceptions like Darm-G can drop it in one hit but when you consider that grounds are easily tech'd by Shuca Ice Beam this only really leaves you w/ running a fire. Absolutely tyrannical to the tier it should hella not be here.

Potentially Broken


When the meta people were losing their minds over this thing but after a fair amount of consideration w/ peers, I don't think this is a cut and dry case. When first introduced, people thought the only way to really beat Zygarde was Ice coverage but this isn't necessarily true for a number of reasons.
1. While berries do mitigate its weaknesses it does not absolve them. You will still be dicked by various mons like Fini, CB Hax, and faster Haban dragons. Also, some mons don't care about not being super-effective such as PZ.
2. Zygarde is p easy to wall. It's relatively weak sitting at 100 attack and in addition w/ having to run a fair amount of bulk it's not gonna be able to break past shit like Cress, Necro, and Rilla. Also shit like BU Urshi decimates it.
In my opinion, at this point in time Zygarde-C is worth a fair shake. Its lack of strength is exploitable and while there's talk of it being able to tech counters we should give it time to see if that comes to fruition because atm it's manageable.


flinch machine fuck this shit but we have good grounds/fires/darks that off it so it may be fine grrrr but probably not when people start running non-scarf who knows not broken atm


makes me angry but it loses to all the other brokens so we'll see after bans, still think it's crazy, expect a proper post if it is broken

Not Broken (RN at least)


If anything, it has competition now. I still think it's really goddamn good but the lack of Rising Voltage means the terrain nerf really hurts it. Still has a shit ton of options but it's not as scary as it looked on paper.


yeah, that middling speed hurts it a lot and now we have really great darks/bugs as well as pressure dogs that run all over it. Don't get me wrong, Necro is still very very good but it's not the menace it was in Home.

cba to write any more I want to get back to playing dlc, god this tier is so fire I'm very happy w/ it. mubs out
e: the horses are not bannable at all lmao

 

[RunWithTheScizors]

Have not played this tier in a while though I’d like to discuss these two:

Regieleki - This thing reaches 436 speed without investment, so it will probably use a lot of specs + transistor electro ball. However, its movepool is bad and it basically autoloses to ground types and bulky electric resists. Its bulk is also miserable.I do not think it will be any higher than C rank.

Regidrago - Mike’s brother aka a thicc dragon type. In a tier dominated by dragon types, base 80 speed is really awkward for this thing. It also has a poor movepool but at least it has two of the elemental fangs. It gets interesting tools like scale shot + dragon dance, so maybe a Haban set would see some use. Still too early to decide its viability but with stuff like zygod and magearna allowed its probably not going to be very relevant. 200 HP is a meme though.

 

[Snowjy]

Custap Review!
​

As most of you have heard, the much loved Custap Berry has been added in to the game and I’d like to make a short list of 5 Pokémon that I think will benefit the most from this addition. I won’t be going into crazy detail with each explanation but I will drop a set for each. This list is not in any order whatsoever.


Primarina is easily the mon I am most excited for with the addition of Custap Berry. Just the idea of a Max SpA Torrent boosted Hydro Cannon coming off of a massive 126 SpA stat is just crazy.

set

flippas (Primarina) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 100 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Cannon
- Aqua Jet
- Endure
- Ice Beam

Rhyperior is blessed with a ginormous 145 base attack stat and undoubtedly strong STAB moves in Rock Wrecker and Earthquake. Reversal also has great synergy with Custap due to the nature of being at 1 health with endure.

set

Rhyperior @ Custap Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Endure
- Reversal

I have just recently discovered the possibilities of Custap Drampa. Drampa has a unique ability (no longer signature) that raises its Special Attack by 1 when it reaches half health or lower. This has natural synergy with Custap. A base 135 +1 priority STAB Hyper Beam and Draco Meteor hurt real bad.

set

Drampa @ Custap Berry
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Beam
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower

Xurk has the highest SpA stat of all Pokémon but it has trouble utilizing it due to it’s middling speed tier. You could of course just run scarf but that requires you to sacrifice power because you must run a Timid nature. But with Custap Berry, you can run Max SpA and be just fine. Hypnosis is an option but is very risky due to it’s laughable 60% accuracy and the unpredictable nature of sleep.

set

Xurkitree @ Custap Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Hypnosis / Hyper Beam

Last but not least, the new Legendary Pokemon Glastrier(the sprite hasn’t been coded into Smogon yet but I’ll update it later lol). Glastrier has only been in the Metagame for a little over a day and it looks like it has a promising spot in the meta. A 145 attack stat is a phenomenal place to be and it doesn’t mind too much having a sluggish 30 base speed. Glastrier has fantastic natural bulk that in sone cases allows it to tank a hit and Swords Dance before having to Endure. You have a few options in terms of moves. You can pick from Icicle Spear or Icicle Crash for STAB as both have their upsides. As for coverage, it depends on what you need on your team. I’ve provided some inspiration in the set below.

set

Glastrier @ Custap Berry
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Swords Dance
- Giga Impact / Heavy Slam / High Horsepower / Close Combat
- Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear

Well that’s all for my Custap review! Custap came out of nowhere and a lot of people are feeling mixed emotions. I’m not too sure myself whether this will be a healthy item or not and what kind of place it will have in the meta. See ya!

 

[Internal]

Threats

Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Outrage

- Dual Wingbeat

- Earthquake

- Fire Punch

Been playing 1v1 for not even 24 hours and I just wanted to touch down on the potential threat which is Dragonite. I personally think that Dragonite is an absolute menace to the tier, with the ability to live almost any hit from most of the tier due to it's ability multiscale and pretty much OHKO most of the common mons in the tier that don't even resist Choice Banded Outrage, with one of the main counters I've seen being Custap Glastier on the ladder and Custap Rhyperior sets respectively. However I've been in a conversation with one of the TL's themselves and they mentioned that this thing isn't even a threat in the first place....?

On top of that its coverage is pretty incredible, as nothing comes to mind when I think of the resists for this set and options for Water/Fighting/Ice respectively.

bunch of calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 314-370 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 148 Def Primarina: 196-231 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2HKOS PRIM and lives Moonblast too with broken multiscale.)
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 221-263 (68.4 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 204-241 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Urshifu: 436-520 (127.4 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Rock Wrecker

- Earthquake

- Swords Dance

- Endure

With the fresh Custap's release, a mon that I've been abusing today has been Custap Rhyperior. Rhyperiors incredible attacking ability alongside the fact that it can tank pretty much most hits from the common physical attackers and specific special attackers in the tier and get off an SD freely, endure and click Rock wrecker. The main reason why I think this is a threat is due to the fact that it can pull this off so easily, I've been seeing charm clefable being used alot for these types of attackers, only to get the charm pp stalled by SD and killed with Earthquake into Rock Wrecker.
This can also be used an a direct counter to the Dragonite set I've mentioned above, as it lives every single move it has and revenges with Custap Rock Wrecker.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 262-310 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Rhyperior Rock Wrecker vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 537-633 (166.2 - 195.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It is also useful for other attackers such as Volcanion to put a stop to it and kill it with Rock Wrecker, and is a Electric Immunity meaning it puts a stop to annoying Tapu-Koko, Raikou and Regieleki.

Note: Not all of this will be accurate, however I've grasped the tier enough to the point where I can make my own deductions based on the matches I've played and conversations with other users.​

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

Echoing the concern about dragonite: I haven't used band much so I can't speak for that, but this mon has a lot of viable sets with basically no common counters. It has amazing stats, an expansive movepool,

Dragonite was already considered a potential problem before the meta developed in a way extremely favorable to it. The tapus failed to materialize as defining metagame threats, registeel doesn't like all the fire-types running around now, and espeed is a blanket answer to all custap shenanigans in a meta where half the pokemon want to run custap.

The various viable archetypes are also extremely good at covering each others' checks. Band terrorizes slow mons, Scarf and DD LO are both good against the things that try to outspeed and 2hko band, WP kills everything that tries to beat the former two with speed control.

It seems to me like the only reliable dragonite counters are fast bulky attackers who can break multiscale and OHKO with an ice move, extremely strong nukes (sylveon, crustle ig), hard physical walls that resist all of nite's strong coverage, and... haxorus, I guess? Some of those I can see nite create sets for, but right now they're all pretty solid.

I'm not going to ask for an outright ban, but dragonite is definitely one of the threats that the council should keep a very close watch on, and it might just be straight-up broken in a meta with no kyub, no megas, no gems, and no z-moves.

 

[STABLE]

Re proposing, I don't think Dragonite is gonna need too much of an incentive to get banned.
Dragonite can easily tank a STAB ice beam from the Ice type mon with the highest SpA, and I don't think that is healthy for a metagame. Its move pool allows it to cover literally every single mon in the metagame viably, between Band with outrage and dual wingbeat/fire punch/eq/tpunch/iron head, WP or Life Orb with DD and even Special to beat physically defensive checks. Scarf can most likely even beat most Haban dragons, so most people will be forced to run crustle/rhyp (which lose to special sets), ice types (which more often than not will also be forced to run moves like Icicle spear or Blizzard, or sets/items that are otherwise unoptimal), or stuff like custap fairies, which can still lose to, like espeed. One of the only real good trustworthy checks is 6D pult but I am sure Dragonite can tech for that one as well.
This mon is super unhealthy for the metagame and keeping it free will not make things any better.

Mubs out

 

[Murm]

I am surprised that I haven't seen any custap Dracovish. I mean it's signature move relies on it being faster and custap makes it faster than anything without priority or without a custap of their own. Specifically custap allows Dracovish to beat mons that are faster than its scarf set like Dragapult, Zeraora, and Regieleki, and faster scarfers like Haxorus and Darmanitan-Galar, and allows it to switch moves to beat certain stall Pokemon like Chansey and Corsola-Galar.

Set

Dracovish @ Custap Berry
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Substitute
- Endure

The evs are very standard and can be changed. Max attack for maximum damage output, 44 speed for max speed jolly Rhyperior, and the rest into HP for general bulk, to go along with Dracovish's general good bulk. Fishious Rend is obvious, Outrage is a nice secondary STAB for threats like Dragapult and Haxorus, Substitute helps with stall mons like Corsola-Galar and Chansey along with Crustle and helps bring you down into custap range if you know you are going to take 50-75%, and endure is for reliably getting down into custap range.

Team 1

Dracovish @ Custap Berry
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Substitute
- Endure

Victini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 152 Def / 160 SpA / 196 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Energy Ball
- Glaciate
- Trick

Sylveon @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 48 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Yawn
- Protect
- Fake Tears

Team 2

Dracovish @ Custap Berry
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Substitute
- Endure

Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 84 HP / 168 Def / 228 SpA / 28 Spe
Rash Nature
- Icy Wind
- Thunder
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Blast

Sylveon @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 48 SpA / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
- Quick Attack
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Fake Tears

Mono-Water

Dracovish @ Custap Berry
Ability: Strong Jaw
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Outrage
- Substitute
- Endure

Tapu Fini @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Misty Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 60 SpA / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Surf

Carracosta @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 140 Atk / 252 SpA / 116 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Liquidation
- Hydro Pump
- Stone Edge
- Shell Smash

While these teams aren't perfect and have some flaws (especially the second team losing hard to Registeel unless they think Dragonite is physical and Iron Defense), I hope that these show the power of custap Dracovish, and feel free to use them, as they are pretty fun.

 

[Snowjy]

View attachment 285137
Re proposing, I don't think Dragonite is gonna need too much of an incentive to get banned.
Dragonite can easily tank a STAB ice beam from the Ice type mon with the highest SpA, and I don't think that is healthy for a metagame. Its move pool allows it to cover literally every single mon in the metagame viably, between Band with outrage and dual wingbeat/fire punch/eq/tpunch/iron head, WP or Life Orb with DD and even Special to beat physically defensive checks. Scarf can most likely even beat most Haban dragons, so most people will be forced to run crustle/rhyp (which lose to special sets), ice types (which more often than not will also be forced to run moves like Icicle spear or Blizzard, or sets/items that are otherwise unoptimal), or stuff like custap fairies, which can still lose to, like espeed. One of the only real good trustworthy checks is 6D pult but I am sure Dragonite can tech for that one as well.
This mon is super unhealthy for the metagame and keeping it free will not make things any better.

Mubs out

omni set dnite counter

it feels good (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Atk / 108 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Avalanche
- Counter
- Sucker Punch

Bulked to live a max attack CB outrage, here’s Kangaskhan! Avalanche OHKOS unless they go for dragon dance and you just Sucker Punch on the next turn. Chople for Superpower shenanigans.

 

[Waylaid]

council member waylaid here to put my two cents in

1. the meta now is so much more fun than it ever was. it reminds me a lot of oras (free megas) and there's still so much room for innovation. I think the custap spam is mostly just new toy syndrome, so I'm not seriously considering any sort of custap/endure ban. I also think a lot of the top meta threats are relatively healthy, with one notable exception:

2. I think we should ban dragonite. a lot of people don't know that council has a voting spreadsheet for this dlc, so I'll restate my reasoning from there: Dragonite is much too overcentralizing and powerful. I'd argue that it didn't lose much with the loss of z-moves between SM and SWSH, which is concerning in a meta with a lower power ceiling. I'd like to see this mon resuspected at a later date, but I'm of the opinion that no serious development can be made with it in the tier.

dragonite's ability is unlike that of any other mon in the tier. multiscale is one of the most busted abilities to exist in 1v1, due to the lack of "chip" a mon takes in 6v6 before being sent out for good. this ability is paired with an incredible movepool and equally good stats. in sm, dragonite was considered a top threat, and a dnb result after a suspect was a controversial result. this is partially (mostly) because of mega-gyara, which served as one of the only true counters to dragonite in the tier. the mgyara equivalent in ss, haxorus, is nowhere near as solid as a check, as dnite can easily run a resist berry over what was once a zmove slot in its dragon dance set.

do I think dragonite is busted? yes... but that's not my only reason for voting ban. I think that dragonite is an inherently unhealthy mon for 1v1 to be centered about. multiscale breeds an entirely different set of strategies for taking a mon down, almost always relying on 2hko-ing it. I recognize that a mon cannot be simultaneously considered broken and unhealthy, but I think that a meta focused on mitigating the threat of dnite to every team would quickly become unhealthy, even though more reliable dnite checks would arise.

I think that dnite is one of the most unhealthy mons to have a meta built around. I believe we should resuspect it as soon as the meta has become more developed, but I think any developing we have with dragonite in the tier will lead to a stale, unhealthy metagame.

thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, whether they're in this thread, on discord, or on sim. mubs out.

 

[dogknees]

I'm basically of all the same opinions that Waylaid just brought up. Its ability + offensive capabilities work incredibly well with such a diverse movepool, to the point where dragonite finds itself being able to tech its would-be "counters", which is in no way healthy for a metagame that has been progressing quite nicely. We're still in quite an early stage of the meta which is reflective of our rather ban happy actions thus far with marshadow and magearna, so I don't see the harm in adding dragonite to that list when considering that it's far more restrictive than it is encouraging. More importantly, I'm not keen in allowing dragonite to remain in the tier on the premise that it could be balanced. The here and now suggest nothing other than it being a broken and restrictive force, which we should rid of sooner rather than later

 

[SiceXV]

legit calcs and sets to stop dnite

252+ SpA Jynx Blizzard vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 362-428 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO scarf modest jynx gg

+2 140+ SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 362-428 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after smash star gg

200 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Fake Out vs. 152 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 51-61 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO FO into PR/Outrage, shuca/HP for eq/draco gg.

252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 200 HP / 200 Def Dragonite: 372-440 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO gg

beats every dnite on earth gg

Walrein @ Chople Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 240 HP / 64 Def / 112 SpA / 4 SpD / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Encore
- Blizzard
- Icy Wind

also ban jirachi lol

 

[The Official Glyx]

I suppose I'll toss my hat into the ring here.


Eh, fuck it. I was ready to write up a whole thing about how plenty of the present meta is well-equipped to handle it, but then a couple things came to mind, being A: I did agree that qbing mons that would normally only be suspectable and resuspecting later was a good idea, and B: I realized that Dragonite could run some shit like Breaking Swipe if it wanted to get around Band Aggron and Toxic if it really wanted to get around stall. I'm down to drop it for now and re-examine at a later point (alongside the like dozen or so other things we'll also need to reevaluate).

Custap/Endure:
I dunno why these are on the voting sheet atm. While I do hate the effective RNG that Endure spam promotes, it would be a hot take and a half to ban something so subversive in the early developmental phase of a meta, especially with no prior precedent having been set to justify such a decision. Simply put, I think the matter should be saved for once the meta begins to settle.


I've seen a person or two say stuff regarding Jirachi, but I'm just not really seeing it, both on ladder and in teambuilding. I get that it's a versatile little guy, but it doesn't really seem quite domineering. I look at it and see that it can certainly make a set to beat near anything, but at the same time it suffers plenty of losses elsewhere in doing so. I'll be keeping an eye on it, but for the time being I don't think action needs to be taken.


This one's not on the slate atm, considering it just got a DNB from the first one, though it may very well still be a mon to watch for. As expected, its obscene bulk serves it well in a meta without Z-moves, even if it no longer has the added burst of power from using its own Z. Relative to mons like Dragonite and Jirachi, it is notably much less flexible in how you can viably go about using it. Ultimately, I do feel that it still has the resources to become banworthy, but for the time being people just aren't bringing out that potential.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I see a lot of people on here discussing that they either don't think custap/endure is bannable or that its just too early to tell in this new meta but I disagree and I figured I would put in my opinion on the topic
The problem I see with custap/endure is that it is inherently good on almost every single Pokemon in the tier while also being almost impossible to predict on more niche users. Go to your team builder and type endure into the Pokemon search, what do you see? Almost every single Pokemon ever created can learn endure and therefore can make use of custap berry which makes it almost impossible to predict if a Pokemon is using it. It is also one of the highest reward lowest drawback items in the entire game because your opponent always must be wondering if you are custap as opposed to say mystic water primarina and the two different sets take completely different counter-play. This constant worry that any Pokemon that learns endure (which I stress again is almost every Pokemon) can run a viable to somewhat viable custap set severely constricts team building, especially team building around Pokemon that can run very viable endure and non-endure sets such as sylveon, primarina, rhyperior, porygon-z, almost any sturdy Pokemon, and many many others. On the topic of team building, custap/endure also invalidates another key to team building in 1v1: speed control.
I do not have time to go as in depth as I would like to seeing as I have other stuff to do today but I hope others who feel the same way I do about endure/custap will go further in my stead. My overall point is endure+custap greatly constricts team building and I would like to see a ban of some sort to help reconcile the issues they create.

 

[dogknees]

I see a lot of people on here discussing that they either don't think custap/endure is bannable or that its just too early to tell in this new meta but I disagree and I figured I would put in my opinion on the topic
The problem I see with custap/endure is that it is inherently good on almost every single Pokemon in the tier while also being almost impossible to predict on more niche users. Go to your team builder and type endure into the Pokemon search, what do you see? Almost every single Pokemon ever created can learn endure and therefore can make use of custap berry which makes it almost impossible to predict if a Pokemon is using it. It is also one of the highest reward lowest drawback items in the entire game because your opponent always must be wondering if you are custap as opposed to say mystic water primarina and the two different sets take completely different counter-play. This constant worry that any Pokemon that learns endure (which I stress again is almost every Pokemon) can run a viable to somewhat viable custap set severely constricts team building, especially team building around Pokemon that can run very viable endure and non-endure sets such as sylveon, primarina, rhyperior, porygon-z, almost any sturdy Pokemon, and many many others. On the topic of team building, custap/endure also invalidates another key to team building in 1v1: speed control.
I do not have time to go as in depth as I would like to seeing as I have other stuff to do today but I hope others who feel the same way I do about endure/custap will go further in my stead. My overall point is endure+custap greatly constricts team building and I would like to see a ban of some sort to help reconcile the issues they create.

I’ll only touch on this topic quickly.

We will consider action if it creates issues. Right now however, there’s really no solid precedence to consider it as banworthy in any sense. You talk about it being one of the highest reward and lowest drawback items in the game, but restricting a pokemon to custap + endure is in itself a drawback. The fact that a move is required to make an item viable (with the exception of sturdy users, notably crustle) is by no means something that can’t be considered significant. It’s very safe to assume that pokemon like rhyperior, primarina, and porygon-z etc will likely use this strategy over niche options that learn endure. We’ll soon find out what thrives and what doesn’t, which is why saying that it’s “impossible to predict” doesn’t mean a whole lot when you consider how many pokemon can abuse or effectively make use of this strategy. I’m also not totally sold on the idea of how it invalidates speed control. I see it in another light and think that maybe it’s a response to an already fast offensive metagame that has been quickly characterised by magearna, marshadow, and dragonite, all of which will are now banned. We’re only just beginning to scrape the surface of some sort of stability, and have only just moved into the second slate of potential problems (which custap is part of). Nobody is ignoring it, but I feel that calling for a ban at this point is very premature

 

[Patricick]

Honestly, I think Custap is a problem. Custap + Endure is just too strong for too little opportunity cost. It allows you to negate the flaws of a pokemon while keeping the benefits. Rhyperior is a perfect example. Rhyperior gets the benefits of his stats, absurdly high HP, Defense, and Attack that allow him to win against physical attackers. However, his low speed and special defense balance him out. Custap + Endure allow him to negate both his low speed and special defense by tanking any hit and then getting free priority on a 150bp stab, which gives him matchups that he has no right winning. Drampa is an even better example as he even gets the exact same power as specs, can’t be one shot, and gets free priority on a +1 hyper beam coming from 135 Special attack. Literally specs but better. It hampers teambuilding by making speed less of a factor in viability.

It adds a ton of unfair mindgames. Obviously, guessing sets is a key part of 1v1. However, as Mimikyu perfectly illustrated, and Dragonite to a lesser extent, having sets with different counters and checks creates unfair situations. Custap does that for every pokemon while also getting rid of the normal answers that things like sturdy have. Endure lets you survive everything at any health, so you can't just hit it with a non supereffective move and then kill it, you have to play endure mindgames to win because they can use endure at any time and if they get it off they probably win. You can't use a multi hit move, because endure doesn't give a shit about that. It completely stone walls the normal counters for moves and abilities that let you always take a hit. It boils down the offensive counters to "Be able to OHKO and always take a hit", which is not healthy. Now, that description doesn't include stall/defensive mons, but Custap users can overcome them too. All they need is a boosting move. In fact, boosting move + custap is actually kinda broken. Not only does it give you the W against a ton of defensive pokemon, but it allows you to do so without sacrificing any offensive matchups.

Previously, I said that Custap hurts teambuilding and specialization. I’d like to expand on that. Custap takes away from the importance of Evs. That might sound dumb, but think about it. Custap allows you survive any move and then always hit first, so you don’t have to bulk to survive something. (Outside of specific cases in which it's useful.) It takes away the importance of defense and speed for the custap user, and warps the complexity of matchups into “Can I one shot you?”. It gives you too much reward for basically no risk. Why run scarf when you can always outspeed and not be locked in? Why be band when you can just run a boosting move and win against even more things without sacrificing any matchups? (If you’re slower, and already won, the just boost then endure. If you’re faster and won, boost then attack.) Why be life orb when custap does it better? Priority is one of the strongest tools a move can have, which is why the standard power of priority moves is 40. Custap breaks that balance in a meta where one attack usually wins the game.

Even though I think Custap is a problem, and a big one at that, I don't think it warrants a quickban. I say we should wait for the meta to develop more before we ban or suspect it. I made this post to gives some points on why Custap is unhealthy, not to call for a ban right now.

 

[Snowjy]

I’d like to follow up on my original Custap post.

Since everyone and their mothers have been testing Custap thoroughly on the ladder I have come to my decision on what I think should happen to this item (not that I have any say lol). In my very professional opinion, I do not think Custap Berry/Endure should be banned. As mentioned by others before, I think Custap is 100% new toy syndrome and is not unhealthy. The best cure for this annoyance will be time and all we have to do is wait it out. The metagame will naturally evolve and we’ll just have to play it by ear. Banning an item because it’s annoying isn’t very smart. That is all I have to say, stay safe gamers.

 

[suN#6174]

I want to talk about Durant viability.

Set

Durant @ Leftovers
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 78 SpD / 78 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic
- Protect
- Entrainment
- Iron Head

Durant having a high speed for a freaking metal ant is kinda insane.

Opening with entrainment while having truant can be devastating.

As long as you don't get OHKOed mashing protect with leftovers then when you know you won't get OHKOed playing toxic could basically lead to a win.

I realize that this is easily destroyed by a pp staller, rest and obviously getting OHKOed, but I wanna see how viable just having one of these are.

Thoughts?

Edit: After reading a lot about custap berries, I realize that this counters a lot of custap berry users so L.