I have some logs. Where would I post them?i dont think i can convince you to change your mind, but i'd like to see some of your winning games so that you can show off your charizard
I have some logs. Where would I post them?i dont think i can convince you to change your mind, but i'd like to see some of your winning games so that you can show off your charizard
I didn't say he walls things. And the eq thing, to be more specific, A common thing that happens is my raikou is out and theres a steelix out, a very popular pokemon. My raikou is lets say around 60% health. I predict steelix will use eq (or he might explode but that wont neccessarily be a bad thing) i switch to charizard. Now he has to switch or take fire blast which will most likely kill him. And i can predict which pokemon he'll switch to and switch my self bla bla bla. Just stuff like that. That's all i meant. Anyway, isa asked to see one of my winning games so i'll post one and you can see how i play. I rather do that anyway instead trying to explain myself.a general way of determining contribution is through % of turns that a pokemon stays active in a given game. if charizard really does all those thigns (absorb eq, weakens pokemon, "walls" things, then that certainly counts as contribution. but i have a feeling those claims are unfounded. if charizard is active, he's ready to rock and roll. he's not a long term pokemon. one trick pony defines charizard more than any other pokemon.
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, but not in the same way. You say all of that as if it makes charizard a bad pokemon. A pokemon being one dimensional doesn't neccessarily make him bad, though I don't know if I'd label charizard one dimensional. And I was also unaware that unless you had great defense then you can't be ou. Anyway, i made a profile on the website that isa posted a link to. I posted 5 games there. I just picked the ones that showed off charizard the most out of the games i had because that's what isa asked for. So if anyone wants to check them out they can. My profile name on there is the same as it is on here.steelix doesn't threaten very many things. cloyster and egg are two easy switches on your team alone that also offer instant offense. even though charizard is probably one of the best pokemon to switch into steelix, if it's early in the game, you don't really want to reveal your charizard.
ultimately, being able to switch into steelix is a meh example. being able to switch into marowak/machamp however.... but charizard can't do that so.
here are other things charizard can switch into: skarmory, forretress.
guess what else can switch into skarmory/forretress?
if you can honestly argue charizard's defensive merits, then you've successfully paved way for charizard's "ou" status.
but you can't. not necessarily because you don't know enough, but charizard is wholly awful defensively. again the term one-dimensional never rung more true.
that's totally taking what i'm saying out of context. i never said that. i said charizard being one dimensional is one of the main reasons it's not ou; if you can prove otherwise, you've made a case for it being ou.And I was also unaware that unless you had great defense then you can't be ou.
G1 - sure i got lucky with the sweep but its pokemon. Something lucky is gonna happen every game to someone. But at the end of the day i made the right choices with the luck given to me to secure the victory. It'shttp://pastebin.com/u/soulboundx
so i'll just say what charizard does in these games
g1 you come in on a predicted hp fire but the egg FPd so eh, but your fire blast also missed the opposing vaporeon. tanking a sleep move and then waking up fairly early can be done by any mon
i'm fairly sure your opponent could have just boomed his way to victory but instead you were allowed to set up curses and thus you were allowed to sweep with zard, but only because your opponent misplayed - and even towards the end the only play for him was to boom again. i'm also noting that a machamp would have had the same sweep more or less
g2 you come in on an earthquake from +2 marowak but since you switch out zard to the exact same mon you switched out earlier, you didn't gain anything. once gengar was slept a machamp could once again have done the same sweep as your zard, and it only worked out because you didn't get unlucky with gengar sleep turns (and because your opponent decided that jolteon was a good waste of a pokemon vs. a revealed charizard...)
g3 your opponent uses hypnosis exeggutor. what.
you come in on an earthquake and then use that to double into lax for a thunder, which i'll say fine to, but so far the trend seems to be that you use the flying type to come in on earthquakes and then immediately get out.
you set up charizard on a snorlax and proceed to get a flinch AND a crit rock slide, not bad not bad. you also crit the cloyster to kill it...yeah you have a very skilled charizard this game, RNG really blessed you
g4 why do you revenge a 8% cloyster when spikes are up with a paralyzed steelix...and then you live two marowak EQs when switching in on it when spikes are down so that you can sleep it, hot damn (97.4% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery).
either way literally the only thing charizard did this game was to come in and use fire blast vs. exeggutor on the last turn of the game. anything with hp bug (hello machamp, for example!) could do the same
g5 you send in cloyster on a zapdos to spike up and get away with it because your opponent got scared, damn not bad
you use charizard as an EQ pivot again here but just like every other time, it's merely to switch out into raikou, and then you switch out from that as well?...and when charizard comes in on the snorlax, you again get lucky - you dodge body slam paralysis and you crit+flinch with rock slide. yeah you sweep after that but you weren't gonna do that in the first place if you didn't get lucky
the overall theme here: charizard has absolutely no defensive niche that you've shown except the ability to act as a pivot by coming in on earthquake and then promptly switching out. in two of these logs you get incredibly lucky in order to secure the sweep, in one log the only thing you do with charizard is to come in on the last turn to get the last KO, in two logs you get a sweep that i feel like a machamp could have gotten just as well. and honestly your opponents were more or less awful - hypnosis exeggutor, using thief with the same pokemon more than once, switching out a 8% snorlax when spikes are down and spinning is not an option...
tl;dr you haven't impressed me
i don't even disagree with youis anything that we say gonna change your mind or can we just stop here, because it seems to me that you're highly unwilling to change your point of view and you're not gonna change anyone else's
Against suicune, gengar, raikou, you said it would make it hard for charizard to do much of anything. But.. That's not neccessarily true. Like i said in an earlier post, my mindset through a battle is to just win but also to eliminate threats to charizard in one way or another so by the time i throw him out, he can take care of pokemon that would have given him problems earlier. This team has some weaknesses, sure, but so does every team.I more or less agree with everything said about Charizard. It's very one dimensional and has good potential to contribute nothing to the team it's on. One more thing that must be said about Charizard that's been understated is that it is very match up based and thus inconstant. If all you face are borat style standard Zap/Lax/Egg/Cloy/Lix/6th Explosion offense teams then yeah Charizard is going to seem good because all it takes for it to put in work there is minimal weakening of Lax and Cloy, A speed tie against Zapdos that's slightly in your favor, and a good switch in 6th mon depending. Against teams with faster mons like Gengar and Raikou or defensive teams with Suicune Charizard will find it very hard to do much of anything because of the threat of being revenged/tanking a hit and killing/phasing. It also is hard to make plays with against teams like this because of drum being such a high cost move and using it meaning you probably aren't doing it again. Charizard is overall too one-dimensional, inconsistent, and high risk to raise to A-Rank.
Also it doesn't fit on the standard explosion team too well at all due to not having all the support it needs. There are probably at least ten better offensive threats that can go there Machamp being my favorite.
Start of turn 32
Charizard used Fire Blast!
It's super effective!
The foe's Exeggutor lost 74% of its health!
The foe's Exeggutor fainted!
eltin182 forfeited against soulboundx!
Start of turn 27
Charizard used Belly Drum!
Charizard cut its own HP and maximized its Attack!
The foe's Snorlax used Body Slam!
Charizard lost 117 HP! (32% of its health)
Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 28
Charizard used Rock Slide!
A critical hit!
The foe's Snorlax lost 96% of its health!
The foe's Snorlax flinched and couldn't move!
Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 29
Charizard used Earthquake!
The foe's Snorlax lost 9% of its health!
The foe's Snorlax fainted!
JonasAlves sent out Zapdos!
Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 30
Charizard used Rock Slide!
It's super effective!
The foe's Zapdos lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Zapdos fainted!
JonasAlves sent out Piloswine!
The foe's Piloswine is hurt by spikes!
Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Piloswine restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The first game you mention . He still had most of his team left after i killed his exeggutor. Charizard secured the win. And i have logs against other players who i consider better than all of those players besides eltin, but not many because this team is new and the ones i do have charizard doesn't contribute that much. Not because I think he can't but just because its a newish team and i haven't got to play many games against better players. Isa gave me a list of people who he considered top players most of which ive never heard of besides bomber, but i've only played him with old teams , haven't played him with this one yet. And yeah, im sure you've played alot more games than me with charizard.nobody has their mentality set in stone -- you're just not making any convincing arguments. i chalk it up to the d-k effect. i'm willing to bet i have at least 10x as many games on charizard as you do, against more teams, against better players. my ash team against mr.e had it.
edit: i looked at one log. i did a ctrl-f charizard. here's everything i found:
is this really a charizard show case game? one turn? 3% activity in a game isn't very high contribution i would think.Code:Start of turn 32 Charizard used Fire Blast! It's super effective! The foe's Exeggutor lost 74% of its health! The foe's Exeggutor fainted! eltin182 forfeited against soulboundx!
edit2: here's another game:
you'd get a "pokemon" comment from mr.e with that kind of luck. and yes, charizard is amazing with a bit of flinch + ch + speedtie + para dodge luck.Code:Start of turn 27 Charizard used Belly Drum! Charizard cut its own HP and maximized its Attack! The foe's Snorlax used Body Slam! Charizard lost 117 HP! (32% of its health) Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 28 Charizard used Rock Slide! A critical hit! The foe's Snorlax lost 96% of its health! The foe's Snorlax flinched and couldn't move! Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 29 Charizard used Earthquake! The foe's Snorlax lost 9% of its health! The foe's Snorlax fainted! JonasAlves sent out Zapdos! Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 30 Charizard used Rock Slide! It's super effective! The foe's Zapdos lost 100% of its health! The foe's Zapdos fainted! JonasAlves sent out Piloswine! The foe's Piloswine is hurt by spikes! Charizard restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Piloswine restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
so what exactly are you proving with these logs again? what's groundbreaking here? charizard can ohko egg with fb?
be serious, how far do you think this team will get if you were playing more serious players? (i.e. not piloswine)? there's a lot of gaping holes with the team where charizard isn't even the biggest issue. you're raw resting raikou/snorlax for example. egg set and steelix set don't mesh at all (rock slide doesn't kill zapdos, you still need explosion). exeggutor is the only thing standing in the way of a clean st curselax sweep from turn 1.
edit3: looked at the rest of the logs. so one glaring oversight is clearly the lack of diversity of teams. none of these games show what'll happen if you play against any half-decent stall, which is historically where charizard falls short. it's not very good playing the longer game, because he's always one hit away from being out of commission. nobody is underestimating his offensive game, but nobody likes playing 6v5 which is what charizard makes you do til he's ready to drum. and when he does drum, he either goes guns blazing flinching shit left and right, but he just as easily might misse a rs/fb and end up doing LITERALLY nothing even though you set it up perfectly.
even on a team like yours, he's very blatantly the most expendable of the 6. snorlax? clearly not, the metagame revolves around this pokemon. cloyster the spiker? clearly not. the metagame revolves around this move. raikou? no. steelix? that's your normal resist/phazer. egg? perhaps, but god damn are you weak to eq/rs. hopefully it should be pretty clear why charizard isn't ou...
did you even use charizard in that battle, I only saw half the team because I ragequit after Pikachu got ungodly lucky against Eggy to kill it (probably still would've ran train through the entire team with just Snorlax but fuck RNG sometimes).i'm willing to bet i have at least 10x as many games on charizard as you do, against more teams, against better players. my ash team against mr.e had it.
might i reiterate the notion of hyper beam to solve that exact issue. using charizard to 6-0 teams is rather unrealistic, and using him as an expendable wall breaker of sorts (akin to egg/cloy/gengar) might lead to more "consistent" and practical contribution. at the risk of repeating myself too much, here's stuff:It's not that Charizard is difficult to setup due to the self-damage, it's not that it isn't fast enough although both of those things are true. Even if those added concerns didn't exist, it can't OHKO dick even if you pull it off. Marowak does 50% more damage than Charizard with their shared primary attack, due to STAB on Earthquake, and it still can't OHKO some of OU's most physically bulky threats. Charizard literally fails to OHKO Starmie. Even when Charizard isn't outsped and killed by whatever, it usually just does 60-70% damage to a target and dies to the counterattack (because it already did half the work for you!). Trying to flinch shit with faster Rock Slide is not a reliable way to push those kills through. Its only claim to fame is "countering" Skarmbliss, and being Charizard. Incidentally, Charizard needs a max damage roll to OHKO Blissey.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-premier-league-2-week-6.86883/page-3#post-3347628Charizard (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Fire Blast
- Hyper Beam
- Sunny Day
Any more posts like that then it'll probably be for the better...Okay, im done posting in here.
Any more posts like that then it'll probably be for the better...