CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment

[m190049]

I see absolutely no use for Scrappy on CAP8.

Scrappy has use. Just not any notable use.

It's not true that no good can come out of Forecast. Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams are not completely horrible. The only downside I can see to a weather-based CAP is that it has nothing good come out of Sandstorm. If it got a defensive boost from it and worked in that weather as it does in the others, it would be just as competitively viable. The question is can it survive even in this sand-filled metagame? Pyroak can benefit from Sun, Arghonaut from rain and Syclant from Ice, so it's not like the CAPs can't have any synergy with Forecast on a Pokemon.

Again, Forecast is just another rather gimicky ability Game Freak made because they thought it would be interesting to implement.
Real Pokemon have a LOT more basis on flavor and such than we're really going for at CAP.

Of course, most abilities have SOME sort of advantage to them, and Forecast can be a help in some case, but it's really just completely out of place on it. It could much rather use something else with more notability. Forecast is too out of place to really be used.

It's there mainly for Castform, just because.

 

[tennisace]

You're contradicting yourself. Slow Start should be allowed for the same reason Scrappy is.

 

[Matthew]

You're contradicting yourself. Slow Start should be allowed for the same reason Scrappy is.

In no way is this true, tennis. Slow Start has no use, what-so-ever. We can give a pokemon the best move pool and stats ever, but because of Slow Start it still has a massive handicap to it. Scrappy, though it may not get voted on, can have some merit if we decide to give CAP8 a Normal- or Fighting-type move which it can hit Ghost-types with. Though it is unlikely that it will be the chosen ability, I see no reason as to why we cannot put it in the allow list.

 

[m190049]

You're contradicting yourself. Slow Start should be allowed for the same reason Scrappy is.

Again, the Concept is looking for good abilities that see little use because the Pokemon isn't good enough to use it.

Slow Start really fits no description of any of that.
It's really just a "handicap" ability given to Regigigas because it's so freakin' powerful.

 

[tennisace]

If it doesn't fit the concept and its that crappy, people won't vote for it. I see no reason for it not to be allowed just because you think it isn't good. The point of the unallowed list is for abilities that would overpower the Pokemon. Slow Start isn't overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. Should we ban NFEs because they're so bad and detrimental to your team? No, you can use them in any tier you damn well please (save Chansey in NU).

 

[Matthew]

If it doesn't fit the concept and its that crappy, people won't vote for it. I see no reason for it not to be allowed just because you think it isn't good. The point of the unallowed list is for abilities that would overpower the Pokemon. Slow Start isn't overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. Should we ban NFEs because they're so bad and detrimental to your team? No, you can use them in any tier you damn well please (save Chansey in NU).

Allow Slow Start then if that's what it will take. It's not an issue since no one will vote for it.

 

[m190049]

The point of the unallowed list is for abilities that would overpower the Pokemon.

No it's not. The point for the allowed list is to point out the abilities that are eligible for vote. Abilities that fall under the list of abilities that fall under the concept. We are looking for helpful abilities that are not used because the owners don't have good enough stats to use them.

The unallowed list is just for abilities that don't fall under the description of allowed. And Slow Start doesn't fit the description. Therefore, it's not an eligible ability.

 

[Elegy]

These are my opinions on the abilities Cyber said should be discussed.

One real use for Stall I see is Skill Swapping it to the opponent to cripple them for good. This looks like a legit strategy to me. Another is spamming moves like Payback, Avalanche, or even Vital Throw. Nonetheless, it will more of a burden then an asset; it will be hard to pull off no matter how legit it could be. Should be Unallowed.

Scrappy just seems too pointless. If you really want to hit Ghosts so bad, just give it a Dark or Ghost attack. I noticed others are discussing this, so i'll step out. Should be Unallowed.

Forecast confuses me -- when a Pokemon with dual typing has it, is one type lost completely and the main type changes? I'll leave it alone...

 

[Veedrock]

Forecast confuses me -- when a Pokemon with dual typing has it, is one type lost completely and the main type change? I'll leave it alone..

It'll completely override the typing. So in Sun, it'll be Fire, not Fire/???.

 

[m190049]

Forecast confuses me -- when a Pokemon with dual typing has it, is one type lost completely and the main type changes? I'll leave it alone...

I don't remember 100%, but I remember a hacking test where someone hacked Mutlitype onto a Bulbasaur, to see what would happen.

Attaching plates ended up changing the first type, and keeping the second in-tact, if I remember correctly. Attaching a Toxic Plate made it show as "Poison/Poison", attaching a Sky Plate made it Flying/Poison, and so on.



I believe Forecast would just change the first type on a dual type Pokemon, though I can't be sure. I don't really remember if the events I am recalling was really what happened... I only scarcely remember the testing.
At max, I am 65% sure that is what happened...

Regardless if that's what would genuinely happen, it really doesn't matter.
Smogon can do whatever they want...



But anyway, i think Forecast should be Unallowed. It has no real reason being on any other Pokemon than Castform.

 

[Elegy]

Fair enough. I think Forecast should be unallowed, since it is gimmicky, sandstorm is too common, and the Pokemon most likely will end up outclassing Castform, or being outclassed by it.

 

[tennisace]

Description: This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.

Nowhere does it say anything about the ability having to be beneficial to the Pokemon. I fail to see how exactly Slow Start isn't under this concept, since the only Pokemon who has it has a shit movepool, and Slow Start is quite clearly undervalued. I understand that its a horrible choice for an ability but there's no reason it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[m190049]

Nowhere does it say anything about the ability having to be beneficial to the Pokemon. I fail to see how exactly Slow Start isn't under this concept, since the only Pokemon who has it has a shit movepool, and Slow Start is quite clearly undervalued. I understand that its a horrible choice for an ability but there's no reason it shouldn't be allowed.

The concept right there says "but possibly very helpful".
I guess possibly doesn't mean is, but you don't need to take it 100% literally.
You can understand what's being insinuated.

And really... Why even bother allowing Slow Start? What's the point exactly?

 

[tennisace]

The possibly refers to helping the metagame. And the point of allowing it is basically sticking to principle, where we only ban broken things. Why should this be different? If so, ban Luvdisc.

 

[hydrolphin]

Nowhere does it say anything about the ability having to be beneficial to the Pokemon. I fail to see how exactly Slow Start isn't under this concept, since the only Pokemon who has it has a shit movepool, and Slow Start is quite clearly undervalued. I understand that its a horrible choice for an ability but there's no reason it shouldn't be allowed.

I must agree with most of this actually. Slow Start is just as useless as the other three abilities below. Slow Start actually isn't as Crippling as people make it sound. In fact if Regigigas could run a Resttalk set, he would a great choice for a stall team. But Regigigas has amazing stats, so Slow Start should stay unallowed
Scrappy is useless on something that isn't Normal or Fighting, because normal is only useful for STAB or desperate coverage and Scrappy isn't worth using for one Fighting move, when you have STAB Elec+Water/Bug/Dragon. Seeing as none of the three leading typing options is completely walled by ghosts, I would suggest Scrappy be moved to unallowed. THe only one that cold have trouble is Electric/Bug against Rotom, but that is one counter. Everything needs counters.
Stall+Skill Swap sounds like a gimmick set more than something to be relied on. A concept can't be based around being slow so I would suggest Stall be moved to unallowed.
Forecast is rather gimmicky. It theoretically has a use, but if you wanted a weather sweeper, you should use a pokemon wiht Swift Swim/Chlorophyl. They will gain more from the rain/sun than Forecast pokemon would. Since Forecast is generally outclassed by those abilities, along with others I haven't named, I would suggest Forecast be moved to unallowed. Though I must say, just because Castform doesn't have a Sandstorm form doesnt mean everything else with Forecast can't.

 

[cyberzero]

Hydrolphin has made better points than most in this thread lately, which was reduced to bitter arguing over the same topics with no one budging. His suggestions for moving those three Abilities to Unallowed will be accepted immediately.

This means that we have no more abilities in the Pending section! We'll be ready by the time that the Ability Discussion comes around. Unless you feel that you have a very good argument, that has not been mentioned in this thread, to change the placement of an ability that is already placed, then don't talk about abilities that are already placed. As of now, this thread will remain open to add abilities only.

 

[Atlas]

One real use for Stall I see is Skill Swapping it to the opponent to cripple them for good. This looks like a legit strategy to me. Another is spamming moves like Payback, Avalanche, or even Vital Throw. Nonetheless, it will more of a burden then an asset; it will be hard to pull off no matter how legit it could be. Should be Unallowed.

actually, stall only works when two moves are selected of the same priority. so revenge, vital throw, avalanche etc will all move last regardless of stall anyways. the only this it would be good for is payback.

 

[Elegy]

Oh, then I guess I misunderstood.
All the more reason to throw it in unallowed.

 

[ferron]

based on that which m190049 said on forecast and how it switches the primary type, then shouldn't we move color change to unallowed? what would be the point of having a 2 types if this poke will rarely get to use one of them?

 

[Veedrock]

I think Aftermath should be in there. There are a multitude of pinch berries (Salac being the most common) and abilities that allow weakened pokemon to sweep. Anybody that's been swept by Empoleon knows what I'm talking about. Far from useless, definitely worth consideration.

Call me crazy but didn't you say we weren't going to allow Rock Head because of Pyroak? I'll look through the thread again but I believe it was you that brought it up and shot it down, because it was that post that made me look it up. EDIT: Alright.

I actually want to argue Trace's allowed status. All I ask is why? It's far from neglected and Porygon2 gets a lot of praise for having it (and "countering top threats" because of it). He's always been one of those borderline OU pokemon too, specifically for his capabilities with Trace. I don't understand how it fits because Porygon2 is, from my perspective, the perfect user for it. I doubt we could build a CAP that uses Trace better than Porygon2, and I fail to see how the ability is neglected because it's on him.

 

[cyberzero]

Aftermath has been added. Regarding Pyroak's Rock Head, at first it was the general consensus that abilities that currently exist on CAPs will be denied, but Pyroak has proven to be a lackluster user of Rock Head, as well as very low OU. Therefore, it was added.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Regarding Scrappy, it's been decided to completely overlook the fact that it allows for a pretty much guaranteed Rapid Spin? That's pretty much the only reason to bring it up for our Electric/X pokemon though. Just wanted to bring this up because Hydrophin didn't even mention the possibility.

 

[Zystral]

@ Veedrock, me and Gen. Empoleon are quite parallel on this matter - if it ends up Electric / Bug, giving Trace would make it a very effective Heatran counter, among other things.

I do however, agree with you, that Porygon2 is the best (if not only?) user of Trace in the Metagame, so how can you call it Neglected?

 

[zarator]

Scrappy spin, on something which can take on ghosts and dont mind entry hazards any more than anything else, is just broken, and a good way to say "goodbye" to any form of stall - which is not fair in my opinion.

 

[Falgaia]

Even if we did want Scrappy Spin, I'm sure we could very easily create, say for example, a Water equivalent to Rapid Spin, which would not be blocked through imunities. So, at least in my opinion, stay down, Scrappy.

EDIT: Just looked through the lists and I didn't see Super Luck in Allowed or Banned. Can we use this ability or not?