SM UU Viability Ranking Thread

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fire rotom has the advantage of being a much better scizor check, as well as being a better clefable pivot when scouting. the two rotom forms also aren't really super comparable since they're like completely different types lol and will be considered based on what your team would need. rotom-mow's niche of grass type is also slightly overshadowed/done better by celebi, who can run u-turn and trick too i believe
Ah right Celebi, knew I forgetting something. Fair enough points for both mons but we have a lot of good rockers in UU right now which can limit Heat's opportunities to switch in unless you take the extra time to remove them, hence my belief that Mowtom is better overall.
But yeah Celebi kinda takes the wind out of my sails, all I can say as a counter argument is that having a Psychic over Electric typing gives Celebi more defensive issues making it easier to kill with Bullet Punch or Sucker Punch, it also takes Spike damage.
 
i mean in the end it all depends on your team but ya they both have their pros/cons
i believe that for viability ranking such small niches might not play a big enough role for rotom-c to rise imo
 
I'm just getting back into the competitive scene around here, but man, it's kinda weird seeing most of UU's A-B ranked mons like Lucario, Sylveon, and Snorlax from ORAS so low on the ladder. Guess that's not too surprising what with the OU toys being here.

I'm gonna have to play some games to get a good idea of what I think about certain mons, but this is quite the interesting list here.
 
Nomination for M-blastoise to rise to A-. Beating out both M-aero and Scizor while threating 4/5 mons in A+ with having few switch ins of type coverage of dark/fighting/ice/water . Even running spin still causes hesitation in it either having aura or dpulse. m-launcher alleviates its lack of dual stab with water being a good defensive typing to switch in to. Lack of electrics help too, with the only notable one being raikou. Only 3 mainly used grass types of celebi decidueye and tsareena, cant switch in.
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Decidueye: 294-348 (98.9 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Blastoise-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tsareena: 226-266 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While trop kick only does roughly 50%.
Celebi calcs could be wrong due to how i'm not sure if defensive or offensive sets are most common. Defensive still can't switch in either though
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Celebi: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Opponent has to gamble on predicts due to how likely a wrong predict will lead to a dead mon while blastoise can tank a hit for a miss predict and go for another 50/50.
With many options for entry hazard removal in uu blastoise can forego spin entirely for AoA sets.
Not really good at this so please point out problems with my posts.
 
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didn't know where else to post this, but what are peoples thoughts on mega-shark's optimal moveset?
crunch, obvs, same with protect,
waterfall and psychic fangs seem obvious, but it also seems like waterfall can be dropped for ice fang? most of waterfall's targets are hit hard by ice fang too (gliscor comes to mind) psychic fang gets a pseudo stab boost making it stronger than waterfall lol.
when would waterfall be useful?


(also do people use aqua jet sometimes or is it just me u_u)
 
didn't know where else to post this, but what are peoples thoughts on mega-shark's optimal moveset?
crunch, obvs, same with protect,
waterfall and psychic fangs seem obvious, but it also seems like waterfall can be dropped for ice fang? most of waterfall's targets are hit hard by ice fang too (gliscor comes to mind) psychic fang gets a pseudo stab boost making it stronger than waterfall lol.
when would waterfall be useful?


(also do people use aqua jet sometimes or is it just me u_u)
Well besides having a STAB move, Waterfall has a higher chance of flinch than Ice Fang.

You can mix between having both Ice and Psychic fangs, but I don't think Waterfall should be dropped just because it has less damage output compared to them. It does have its own merits.
 
Hydro Pump can be nice over waterfall on sharpedo as it can 2hko cobalion even if it switches in on your speed boost. Waterfall has its uses in beating klefki but otherwise I'd say ice fang is generally superior overall.

Also, I'd like to nominate primarina for A+. I feel that it's probably the mon that has fewest responses in the tier, it's pretty much, if you're not running volcanion or blissey (or maybe celebi/moongus), you're weak to it. The only negatives I've really heard about it are its poor physical bulk and speed. To the first I would say just stop running max SpA, max Spe, it's a really bad spread. I've had a lot more success with 252 HP, 104 def, 104 SpA and 48 Spe (beats min spe sciz basically). Lets you do stuff like always live a +2 Cobalion Pummeling or a +1 krook EQ after rocks, and have a 95% chance of living soul dew psyshock and Entei CB sacred fire without SR wile still having enough power to always 2hko clefable if it CMs after one hit with hydro pump, always OHKOing 0 bulk scizor (which, according to the showdown calculator is popular for some reason) and always OHKOing lati with moonblast. I have played quite a lot with it and it trades positively pretty much every single game as it's typing lets it check so much stuff and it requires very little prediction to start dropping bodies once it's in. I don't think there's really a mon in the tier that can blanket check so much while still providing an immense ammount of pressure from the get-go.
 

sparrow

kacaw
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hydro Pump can be nice over waterfall on sharpedo as it can 2hko cobalion even if it switches in on your speed boost. Waterfall has its uses in beating klefki but otherwise I'd say ice fang is generally superior overall.

Also, I'd like to nominate primarina for A+. I feel that it's probably the mon that has fewest responses in the tier, it's pretty much, if you're not running volcanion or blissey (or maybe celebi/moongus), you're weak to it. The only negatives I've really heard about it are its poor physical bulk and speed. To the first I would say just stop running max SpA, max Spe, it's a really bad spread. I've had a lot more success with 252 HP, 104 def, 104 SpA and 48 Spe (beats min spe sciz basically). Lets you do stuff like always live a +2 Cobalion Pummeling or a +1 krook EQ after rocks, and have a 95% chance of living soul dew psyshock and Entei CB sacred fire without SR wile still having enough power to always 2hko clefable if it CMs after one hit with hydro pump, always OHKOing 0 bulk scizor (which, according to the showdown calculator is popular for some reason) and always OHKOing lati with moonblast. I have played quite a lot with it and it trades positively pretty much every single game as it's typing lets it check so much stuff and it requires very little prediction to start dropping bodies once it's in. I don't think there's really a mon in the tier that can blanket check so much while still providing an immense ammount of pressure from the get-go.
Seconding your statement about Primarina moving to A+, the thing is terrifying to face if you're using balance or bulky offence; unless you're running something like Empoleon. Very interesting EV spread you're suggesting, I normally run modest max/max since it sits in a very crowded Speed tier (especially considering max lets it outspeed 0 speed base 90s and below; mons such as Suicune, Cresselia & Mandibuzz [avoiding knock off] come to mind). Speed tying with other Primarina and 2HKOing seems ideal, especially when two BO/Balance teams feat. Prima are facing off; it will usually become a Primarina war. I'll be sure to try out your set though! I'd like to point out that your set currently fails to OHKO Raikou (lol it does ko after rocks) and misses out on this lovely little number:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 334-394 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah I am being petty.

Interesting suggestion on Sharpedo, I've also tried Destiny Bond, as a mid game lure to Clefable and even scarf Keldeo. Lets me run Draco and Fighting Spam, partnering well with Pokemon such as Hydreigon, Latias & Infernape.
 
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Freeroamer

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That's actually very interesting, I made a team with Primarina I liked a lot and while I never even tried or felt like I needed Timid, I never considered messing around with the spread outside of a 252 power speed split but some of those calcs you bring up make a pretty compelling case for it, so nice work. You didn't mention the nature but I'm assuming Modest?

As for Shark yes I also believe that Hydro Pump deserves a lot more usage than it gets, but I think people get put off by the combination of the miss chance and the need to run a -SpDef nature for it to be worth it, although most special attacks aimed sharks way are taking it out regardless of nature. Hitting all of Cobalion, Hippo, Gliscor, Krookodile and the gang harder is always welcome. Destiny Bind is cool on overload offenses, but can obviously be a pain sometimes with regards to coverage or lack of. Earthquake is an ok middle ground, hitting Cobalion, Klefki and Bisharp hard but in matchups not vs these mons its pretty eh.
 
Crawdaunt C -> C+/B-

Sporting 120 Attack, Adaptibility, Nice STAB (in Crunch, Crabhammer, Knock Off, Aqua Jet), boosting moves such as Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, and decent coverage in Superpower, Switcherro (this is an option of you're running Choice Band) and Aerial Ace there's a reason why it got banned from RU and this pokemon cleans teams like no other pokemon can. However, this pokemon faces competition by Water types like Keldeo, Primarina, and Sharpedo-Mega and Dark types such as Bisharp and Krookidile due to better speed and better defenses. But there's no reason why you shouldn't use this behemoth of a wallbreaker that strikes terror into the eyes of many people because here are some examples of how effective of a wallbreaker Crawdaunt can be.


252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 272-320 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Hydro Vortex (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bewear: 444-524 (116.5 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 308-364 (113.6 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 308-364 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 300-354 (106.7 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 213-251 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (when it switches in)

It does nice in the UU scene and it can compete with mons in C+ very well with its capabilities. Hope you enjoyed reading this and hopefully this behemoth can rise up.
 
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Kreme

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Hi. Noticed there's actually not much discussion on some of the discussion points listed out earlier by VR hosts which is a shame since there's some interesting stuff I wanted to see people's thoughts on.

The main nomination I liked to see is Hawlucha to B-, which I agree with. Hawlucha in general has a lot of flaws in being susceptible to some forms of priority, most notably Scizor's Bullet Punch, being reliant on the loss of its item in order to perform its role properly (more prominent on Sub variants), and lacking a lot of damage without a boost. However, Hawlucha is probably one of the better cleaners in the tier right now that isn't Choice-locked. Reason being it's just so fast and by virtue of having options between Substitute and Flyinium Z, as well as its ability to force out many staples on offense and balance like Cobalion, Bisharp and Choice-locked Keldeo, it can definitely have setup opportunities to clean. I definitely don't think it belongs with the rest of C+. I also think Quagsire should definitely go to C+ considering it's so prominent on stall and its definitely more influential than anything else within its current rank in terms of being taken into consideration in more general circumstances, imo. Moreover, I don't think its inability to fit easily on other team archetypes should be too much of an issue considering how low this is on the rankings anyhow.
 
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Hi. Noticed there's actually not much discussion on some of the discussion points listed out earlier by VR hosts which is a shame since there's some interesting stuff I wanted to see people's thoughts on.

The main nomination I liked to see is Hawlucha to B-, which I agree with. Hawlucha in general has a lot of flaws in being susceptible to some forms of priority, most notably Scizor's Bullet Punch, being reliant on the loss of its item in order to perform its role properly (more prominent on Sub variants), and lacking a lot of damage without a boost. However, Hawlucha is probably one of the better cleaners in the tier right now that isn't Choice-locked. Reason being it's just so fast and by virtue of having options between Substitute and Flyinium Z, as well as its ability to force out many staples on offense and balance like Cobalion, Bisharp and Choice-locked Keldeo, it can definitely have setup opportunities to clean or setup. I definitely don't think it belongs with the rest of C+. I also think Quagsire should definitely go to C+ considering it's so prominent on stall and its definitely more influential than anything else within its current rank in terms of being taken into consideration in more general circumstances, imo. Moreover, I don't think its inability to fit easily on other team archetypes should be too much of an issue considering how low this is on the rankings anyhow.
I'll back this nomination up with a couple of replays I found on ladder with Hawlucha putting in work late game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-552589756 BobtheBro VS their finest hour - Hawlucha starts putting in the work at turn 20.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-552589131 High ladder play - Hawlucha comes in at turn 15. At turn 18 it sets up on a Krookodile which is pretty awesome.
I'll definitely say that some of the bulkier substitute sets that Hawlucha runs are pretty awesome and it can find a lot of ways setting up even without the reliance of setting up a substitute. Once Hawlucha sets up a swords dance it becomes really hard to stop for Balanced and Hyper Offensive teams but, it still has a bit of difficulty vs stall.
 
Agree with zydog going down to B. Comparatively to other B+'s its strictly limited to late game cleaner as any other uses lead it to instantly die due to its godawful bulk. DD is hard to set up and can be revenge killed with priority, while band is left with being unable to kill somewhat bulky mons leaving it to get instantly retaliated and probably killed. It has trouble doing job as late game cleaner due to how any preservation of a physical wall can stop its sweep, and its movepool can only be left with STAB + Espeed and irontail/sleeptalk which are unreliable to get locked into. Compared to M-blastoise Infernape and M-absols offensive power and coverage, and amoonguses and magnetons strong niche in reliable sleep + regen and steel trapping Zydog doesnt really offer much than revenge killer and unreliable lategame cleaner.
 

Notily

dirt rich
Nominating
for C-/C:

While being entirely outclassed by other mons for most playstyles, Uxie does have a strong niche as a Trick Room setter. The main tools it has over other setters is that it can reliably set rocks, TR, and retain momentum through Memento while being able to semi reliably avoid Taunt via Magic Coat all at the same time (they have to win mind games to land a Taunt). Magic Coat also allows it to forgo Mental Herb so it can run a damage reduction berry, meaning only STAB z-moves will OHKO.
Uxie @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 64 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Memento
- Magic Coat
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Uxie: 296-350 (83.8 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Colbur Berry Uxie: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Colbur Berry Uxie: 126-149 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Uxie: 172-203 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO (2 knocks are guarenteed 3hko when Colbur is up)

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Uxie: 236-278 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Uxie: 302-356 (85.5 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO - if anyone runs this

252 Atk Absol-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Colbur Berry Uxie: 109-130 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- 72.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Absol-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Uxie: 158-188 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Uxie: 284-336 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A couple replays (unfortunately not many as I just recently started keeping them):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-553397501 - Uxie avoids Taunt, sets up TR, rocks and Memento for daunt to break
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-553554540 - room tour vs sparrow, TR + Memento allows bewear to take the double crit from scizor
 
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A Cake Wearing A Hat

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Today I'd like to chime in one one of the nominations for discussion, that one being:

-->B-

I've been on somewhat of a Hawlucha kick as of late. Hawlucha is a mon that shines above all other C+ ranked mons at the moment. Its ability to find openings to set up and clean/sweep with its almost unresisted STABs is incredible, especially with a Substitute set. It can set up on mons including, but not limited to, Keldeo choice locked into Secret Sword (Even if specs), Mienshao locked into anything that isn't U-turn, Choice locked Krookodile, variants of Gliscor without Ice Fang or Facade, Alomomola and Tsareena (Neither of which can break Hawlucha's substitute), Toxic Hippowdon, and -2 Scarf Hydreigon. With all of these options and more, Hawlucha can usually find an opportunity to set up in some manner versus opposing teams.

However, Hawlucha still has several issues, most of which involve it being a bit weak to Scizor, being unable to OHKO certain threats at +2, and generally unable to OHKO anything even remotely bulky when unboosted. Hawlucha also still requires a decent amount of support to deal with its various checks and counters due to its mostly single-use nature, which means it doesn't fit well on all teams.

Overall, Hawlucha is a slept-on threat in the current metagame. Having a Hawlucha on your team usually means the opponent must play very carefully to prevent a sweep. It is for these reasons that I fully support Hawlucha's rise in the rankings.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that Hawlucha does not even need to set up Unburden to threaten teams, necessarily. It can force out mons like Raikou (with some chip), Zydog, Cobalion, Keldeo, Bisharp, and Mega Absol simply because of either the threat of activating unburden or the threat of a High Jump Kick, compounded with Hawlucha's fantastic speed tier when Jolly natured.

Here's a fun replay showing how effective Jolly Hawlucha can be versus offense:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-551732938
 
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I think what the above poster was going for is that Unaware Clefable is pretty much a given on stall teams because of how well it works, and that most stallbreakers and wallbreakers have a way to punch through it, so a Pokemon that's being used to kill stall that can't beat one of the most common stall Pokemon is definitely dropping a rank or so.
 
You can't make a mon drop a tier, and I thought Decidueye's niche was the Swords Dance trapping set with Decidium Z, and can every other mon kill Unaware Clefable??
Can someone explain how the trapping set is supposed to work? I guess the idea is to trap a opponent that can't do anything to you and proceed to set up/ko them/defog etc, but honestly the majority of pokemon are able to hurt decidueye significantly or at least damage it to the point where it may not get the chance to get a roost/synthesis off and the few mons who can't can just switch out before they can be trapped.

If the spoopy ghost owl had natural bulk like Kommo-o for example and had a better typing like Steel/Grass,then it'd be much better at it's job, but it don't really seeing it taking many hits with 78/75/100 bulk and 5 weakness and getting the chance to do anything, especially with stuff like Chandlure and Hydreigon running around.
 
tyang9960 said:
Raikou A>A+ rank.

CM sets and Z-move sets kills everything.

Decidueye B>C-rank.

deadweight vs offense teams

fails to kill unaware clef vs stall teams

Actually just bump it down to RU.
Gotta better your reasoning there. Using such simple points is not the best to get a mon nommed up or down.

Quick edit: ninja'd :(

NewfieDude said:
Can someone explain how the trapping set is supposed to work? I guess the idea is to trap a opponent that can't do anything to you and proceed to set up/ko them/defog etc, but honestly the majority of pokemon are able to hurt decidueye significantly or at least damage it to the point where it may not get the chance to get a roost/synthesis off and the few mons who can't can just switch out before they can be trapped.

If the spoopy ghost owl had natural bulk like Kommo-o for example and had a better typing like Steel/Grass,then it'd be much better at it's job, but it don't really seeing it taking many hits with 78/75/100 bulk and 5 weakness and getting the chance to do anything, especially with stuff like Chandlure and Hydreigon running around.
The purpose of Decidium Z SD Decidueye was not for offensive teams, it was for stall, which lacks Pokemon like Chandy and Hydra. Even then, it takes special hits quite well and retalilates with some good STAB, SD, a Z-Move, and Sucker Punch to back it up.
 
Gotta better your reasoning there. Using such simple points is not the best to get a mon nommed up or down.

Quick edit: ninja'd :(



The purpose of Decidium Z SD Decidueye was not for offensive teams, it was for stall, which lacks Pokemon like Chandy and Hydra. Even then, it takes special hits quite well and retalilates with some good STAB, SD, a Z-Move, and Sucker Punch to back it up.
How is SD Decidium Decidueye good for stall when almost every stall team carries clefable and blissey?

EDIT: And could you provide some examples of Decidueye taking special hits well? I don't know any instance where Decidueye takes special hits from dedicated special attackers particularly "well" as in, less then 50%
 
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Hilomilo

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Shameless attempt to discourage one-liners and get discussion back on track

Alright, everyone. I understand that the noms discussed in the latest update could use some more discussion, but I'd really like to get back to productive discussion in general and talk about
Salazzle.

I honestly think that Salazzle in C is a crime. Salazzle faces pretty severe competition as a Nasty Plot user from Infernape, mainly due to its huge lack of defensive utility (doesn't handle Bisharp too well in contrast to Ape) and even bigger lack of opportunities to set up. However, I've found that Salazzle has a lot of perks that allow it to excel in the metagame in comparison to the other Pokemon in C. A huge perk of Salazzle's is its better Speed and better immediate power than Infernape. This allows Salazzle to outpace the likes of Latias, Zygarde 10%, Gengar, Raikou, Azelf, and anything else in the metagame bar Mega Aerodactyl, Crobat, Scarfers, and things that aren't UU by usage like Talonflame and Ribombee (and as a result not super common or threatening). Outpacing all of these Pokemon without a Choice Scarf is something that Infernape only dreams of, and is also something that in a metagame infested with the aforementioned threats, makes Salazzle more preferable in certain situations. Salazzle's also really fortunate in that despite its at times, lack of setup opportunities, its able to hit really hard right off the bat. Unboosted Dragon Pulse 2HKOes Latias, meaning that it can't revenge kill an unboosted Salazzle without taking major damage, while unboosted Fire Blast and Sludge Wave also hit extremely hard with a Life Orb, the former 2HKOing Hippowdon unboosted, while the latter takes care of pesky fairies that Infernape's NP set usually struggles to break.

Speaking of fairies, that's another thing to consider as well, or really just specific threats in general. Salazzle generally has a much easier time facing Fairy-type Pokemon than Infernape due to its Poison-typing, which is super useful considering the omnipresence of Clefable and Togekiss. There are also a few other Pokemon that by virtue of Salazzle's coverage, it does a lot better than. Infernape's Nasty Plot set is absolutely forced out by Starmie and Latias, whereas Salazzle's combination of Speed, power, and coverage allows it to take care of these threats much easier. Overall, I generally think that Salazzle's ability to outpace Pokemon Infernape can't, hit harder right off the bat, and take care of threats that force Infernape out, make it a much better early-game wallbreaker, and grounds for a rise to C+. I personally think that Infernape requires less support if you're looking to sweep late-game with it, but my nom is centered around Salazzle as a Nasty Plot user in the early game, since I think that between the two Fire type NP users we have, Salazzle is the best for the early-game. (it's also just more consistent and threatening than anything in C but I forgot to say that until now oops)

TLDR: Salazzle's perks over Infernape as a NP user are its better Speed, better immediate power and access to STAB Sludge Wave and Dragon Pulse, which allow it to take care of threats that are particularly troublesome for Infernape, thus meaning that Salazzle is a better early-game wallbreaker than Infernape and is worthy of C+ as a result.

Thanks for reading! I'll be happy to provide replays and calcs later on if need be, but I'm a bit short on time. Hope you all agree with this nomination!
 
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Shameless attempt to discourage one-liners and get discussion back on track

Alright, everyone. I understand that the noms discussed in the latest update could use some more discussion, but I'd really like to get back to productive discussion in general and talk about
Salazzle.

I honestly think that Salazzle in C is a crime. Salazzle faces pretty severe competition as a Nasty Plot user from Infernape, mainly due to its huge lack of defensive utility (doesn't handle Bisharp too well in contrast to Ape) and even bigger lack of opportunities to set up. However, I've found that Salazzle has a lot of perks that allow it to excel in the metagame in comparison to the other Pokemon in C. A huge perk of Salazzle's is its better Speed and better immediate power than Infernape. This allows Salazzle to outpace the likes of Latias, Zygarde 10%, Gengar, Raikou, Azelf, and anything else in the metagame bar Mega Aerodactyl, Crobat, Scarfers, and things that aren't UU by usage like Talonflame and Ribombee (and as a result not super common or threatening). Outpacing all of these Pokemon without a Choice Scarf is something that Infernape only dreams of, and is also something that in a metagame infested with the aforementioned threats, makes Salazzle more preferable in certain situations. Salazzle's also really fortunate in that despite its at times, lack of setup opportunities, its able to hit really hard right off the bat. Unboosted Dragon Pulse 2HKOes Latias, meaning that it can't revenge kill an unboosted Salazzle without taking major damage, while unboosted Fire Blast and Sludge Wave also hit extremely hard with a Life Orb, the former 2HKOing Hippowdon unboosted, while the latter takes care of pesky fairies that Infernape's NP set usually struggles to break.

Speaking of fairies, that's another thing to consider as well, or really just specific threats in general. Salazzle generally has a much easier time facing Fairy-type Pokemon than Infernape due to its Poison-typing, which is super useful considering the omnipresence of Clefable and Togekiss. There are also a few other Pokemon that by virtue of Salazzle's coverage, it does a lot better than. Infernape's Nasty Plot set is absolutely forced out by Starmie and Latias, whereas Salazzle's combination of Speed, power, and coverage allows it to take care of these threats much easier. Overall, I generally think that Salazzle's ability to outpace Pokemon Infernape can't, hit harder right off the bat, and take care of threats that force Infernape out, make it a much better early-game wallbreaker, and grounds for a rise to C+. I personally think that Infernape requires less support if you're looking to sweep late-game with it, but my nom is centered around Salazzle as a Nasty Plot user in the early game, since I think that between the two Fire type NP users we have, Salazzle is the best for the early-game. (it's also just more consistent and threatening than anything in C but I forgot to say that until now oops)

TLDR: Salazzle's perks over Infernape as a NP user are its better Speed, better immediate power and access to STAB Sludge Wave and Dragon Pulse, which allow it to take care of threats that are particularly troublesome for Infernape, thus meaning that Salazzle is a better early-game wallbreaker than Infernape and is worthy of C+ as a result.

Thanks for reading! I'll be happy to provide replays and calcs later on if need be, but I'm a bit short on time. Hope you all agree with this nomination!
I mean sure you can compare it to nasty plot infernape, but the reason infernape is so good is bc of its multitude of sets that can do heavy damage, while salazzle is rather one-dimensional. it gets literally 0 coverage if i recall, consisting of dragon pulse and a hidden power if I'm not mistaken lol. I admit if you can get a nasty plot after forcing a scizor out u can do some heavy damage, but i feel like that and clef are like the only things it can really afford to set up on safely, at least off the top of my head.

i can see it threatening standard stall if it had like HP grass to deal with quag or something. assuming it sets up a nasty plot as blissey switches in and then sets up another nasty plot.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 321-380 (44.9 - 53.2%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 266-316 (40.8 - 48.5%)
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 364-430 (55.9 - 66%)

life orb would wear it down quite quickly however if it takes 2 seismic tosses

A z-move would work actually too, but then you need +4 to actually 2KO blissey
+4 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 280-331 (43 - 50.8%)
+4 252 SpA Salazzle Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 472-556 (72.5 - 85.4%)

or +2 if its like max max def blissey
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 247-292 (34.5 - 40.8%)
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 417-492 (58.4 - 68.9%)

but idk if people actually run max max bold blissey so
 
i mean the way u talk about salazzle sounds like its only good vs offense with the emphasis on it being able to 2KO things on the switch. it pretty much dies to anything that can live a hit that it outspends, (latias, keldeo etc). i was just trying to show it can do work against stall, even blissey if conditions are right. Like no one should be switching in a hippjwdown unless ur like 95% sure its gonna sludge wave.
sure it might be better early game, but if thats like all it has going for it, u know?
also the coverage thing was more just saying infernape has way better coverage lol so its harder to narrow what set it could be running, and salazzle is strong with a life orb, but not strong enough to be able to OHKO stuff with just stabs, and nowhere near as unpredictable.

this is getting too nitpicky but ya just wanted to provide another insight on salazzle

also taking a closer look at rankings, cant know if i can quite get on board with saying its niche is better/more valuable than say lead aero on HO, craw daunts wall breaking, quagsires near necessity on stall, or milotics bulk for ex, but thats just my opinion
 

I would like to nominate Heracross to B- rank. The Flame Orb Guts set is awesome at wallbreaking, destroying or crippling everything under its 85 speed tier after a Swords Dance.
All it needs is an opportunity to set up. And they are plenty. Due its typing and a respectable 80/75/95 bulk, he freely switch in and set up at some situations like:

Krookodile: lose the Flame Orb doesn't hurt too much, SR and EQ are almost free switch in.
Bisharp: same as before, but come at a SD set up do not scare Hera, who easily eats a Sucker Punch.
Hippowdown/Gligar/Swampert: Uninvested EQs do no harm to Hera, SR are always free and toxic activates Guts.
Choice locked Keldeo/Hydreigon: Heracros can resist Choice locked stabs from 2 of the best wallbrakers in the tier and scare them out to set up for free
Bulky waters: Despite of volcanion and slowbro, Tentacruel, Empoleon and even Crocune can't scare Heracross with scald due it's ability.

And now, the calcs of Possible walls trying to avoid a sweep from a +2 Heracross (with Jolly nature):

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Hippowdon: 370-436 (88 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 274-323 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 390-459 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Togekiss: 359-423 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 460-543 (134.1 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 436-514 (137.5 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 324-382 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 357-420 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 444-524 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 416-490 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The calcs above shows that once Hera can set up a SD, a lot of agressive playing is necessary to stop it. Even unbusted, this bug can punch holes with an unresisted dark/fighting/normal coverage. Although, Hera has a lot of problems in UU environment. It has an amazing speed tier to pass through every single wall in the tier but Heracross suffers a lot when its facing HO. Playing agressively, Infernape, Aerodactyl, Gengar, Latias and Keldeo and others can pressure Heracross very hard.

Some replays of him in action:
In the end of the day, Heracross is a very underrated threat in UU meta. From my experience in the current ladder, its way above in viability than mons like Snorlax, Ribombee, Lucario and Necrozma. It's not completely niche, once it performs its role (wallbreaking) with excellence. It surely deserves a rise.
 

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Ok in an effort to stabilize the VR thread...

A- -> A Ehhh, On the fence

Hydreigon is still a threat in this meta, despite the commonality of Clefable and Togekiss. Life Orb Hydreigon sets I feel have been a lot more common to combat its weakness to Fairy-types while the occasional Specs and Steelium-Z sets have also been shown to be really effective in luring in Fairy-types (bar Primarina) and 2hko-ing them with Flash Cannon. On the flip side, Hydreigon will get outsped by a lot of common threats (Keldeo, Infernape, Latias) if opting for a fully offensive set since Hydreigon kinda sits at an awkward (but still good) Speed tier. Also with the tier's multitude of set-up sweepers (Bisharp, Scizor, Slowbro, etc.), they can take advantage of a weakened Hydreigon, -2 SpA from Draco Meteor, to set up.


A -> A- Agree

Yeah Hippowdon is way too passive and invites in a lot of set-up sweepers (Celebi, Slowbro, Slowking, Latias, etc.), moreso than a weakened Hydreigon. Hippowdon's I have ran into always seem to run Toxic which invites in mons like Clefable, Reuniclus, and Togekiss that don't care about Toxic to set up since Hippowdon doesn't have Whirlwind to phaze them out. It also loses to almost every hazard remover out there as well which makes it more difficult for Hippowdon to set up rocks.


Unranked -> C- Disagree

Similarly to Hippowdon, it is way too passive and invites in too many set-up sweepers in. While it can deal with Bisharp/Scizor/Latias a lot better than Bronzong, not much is stopping those said mons it walls better to set up Swords Dance or Calm Mind (Well, Latias has to worry about Toxic). It's also pretty easy to wear down since Registeel doesn't have the space to run Rest/Talk.


C -> C+ Agree

Yeah being a necessity on Stall teams should warrant Quagsire a rise since it is almost always going to be found on those kinds of teams. Not much else needs to be said but, I'll just reiterate what Pearl said that Quagsire allows Stall to deal with Bisharp, Scizor, Cobalion (mons that Unaware Clefable has trouble with).


C- -> C Agree

First of all, this mon is very cute. Anyways, my initial judgement of Minior was not too great since I found it a bit lackluster due to the lack of set-up opportunities. After watching Pearl v. CBU on UTL, it has shown that this thing will sweep balance teams if given the opportunity considering Pearl was at a disadvantage until Minior came in on Jellicent. Shields Down is also pretty underrated since it allows Minior to come in on the majority of defensive/bulky mons (that aren't water-typed usually) since it doesn't have to worry about status conditions and can easily set up a Sub due to the extra bulk on Meteor form.

I also agree with the rise of both Heracross and Hawlucha, but the above posts did a really good job as to explaining why they should rise soo... I'll leave it at that.

As for my own nomination...
switch spots with


Well Sun teams aren't exactly great right now but, I rarely see a team that opted for Ninetales over Torkoal (and new toy syndrome, ideally, should be over by now). The role comparison between these 2 mons is pretty noticeable. Torkoal provides slow sun (Torkoal is slower than both Hippowdon and Ninetales-A which means Torkoal is guaranteed to get Sun up), rocks, and hazard control. By contrast, Ninetales provides just sun, that's about it. Most sun teams I have seen, specifically the ones by FTL, opt for Torkoal instead to "save team slots" since you get hazard control and sun in one neat package.
 
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Ok in an effort to stabilize the VR thread...

A- -> A Ehhh, On the fence

Hydreigon is still a threat in this meta, despite the commonality of Clefable and Togekiss. Life Orb Hydreigon sets I feel have been a lot more common to combat its weakness to Fairy-types while the occasional Specs and Steelium-Z sets have also been shown to be really effective in luring in Fairy-types (bar Primarina) and 2hko-ing them with Flash Cannon. On the flip side, Hydreigon will get outsped by a lot of common threats (Keldeo, Infernape, Latias) if opting for a fully offensive set since Hydreigon kinda sits at an awkward (but still good) Speed tier. Also with the tier's multitude of set-up sweepers (Bisharp, Scizor, Slowbro, etc.), they can take advantage of a weakened Hydreigon, -2 SpA from Draco Meteor, to set up.
I agree with what you said, and i honestly think Hydreigon should rise. But you said Hydreigon becomes set up fodder for (Bisharp, Scizor, Slowbro etc.) i don't know if you were talking about the Life orb set because a -2 Fire blast is still able to ohko bulky Scizor and do (74.9 - 88.1%) to Bisharp and it can still win vs Slowbro after the special attack drop. But if you were talking about the choiced set i agree.

Calcs:
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 203-239 (74.9 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 312-369 (90.9 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also i think these mons should drop

B -> B- I don't really think this thing deserves it to be ranked with things like Nidoking, Suicune, Mienshao, Empoleon etc. it's way too passive imo and is easily set up fodder for dangerous things like Clefable, Scizor ,Bisharp (and more) it also isn't that good of a spinner imo. It's way too much pressured and is completly walled by spinblockers like Gengar, Decidueye, Doublade that other spinners like Blastoise-Mega, Tentacruel can beat much easier.
B -> B- Other people already said it, but Decidueye main niche was stallbreaking but since Clef dropped it simply can't do that anymore. It's also easily walled by common mons like Bisharp, Hydreigon etc. everytime i see this thing or use this it just dissapoints me.
 
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