Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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After cleaning up this thread of multiple lower quality posts I feel I have to make myself clear - this thread is for discussion of the viability of Pokemon in the Ubers tier. This is not the SQSA which is designed to answer small questions related to Ubers, nor is it a place for unviable sets/mons to be brought up. Stick to the topic of this thread and keep discussion at least somewhat intelligent or I will have to start handing out infractions to repeat offenders. Cheers.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Yveltal: A --> A+

Yveltal is one of the best mons on offense atm and is super splashable on pretty much any non-stall team.

The standard LO set is very versatile. There's very little that can switch into Dark Pulse, and Oblivion Wing and Knock Off hit everything that can for a decent amount of damage. The big thing about Yveltal is that very few teams carry a definite answer to it. The best counters, Fairyceus and Magearna, are seldom seen on non balance teams. On offense usually the only switch-in is Xerneas, which I'm sure you know takes something like 40-60% from Oblivion Wing, depending on the EV spread. Or you could knock off Xern's Power Herb, preventing it from getting Geo up safely. Yveltal doesn't only do well against offense. On balance, non-impish Ho-Oh takes approx 60% from Knock off, Groundceus takes approx 45... It isnt as big of a threat as it is to offense but still a threat regardless. It also provides offensive teams a method to deal with stall with Taunt and Knock Off.

Yveltal also runs a scarf set very effectively. U-turn and Foul Play are excellent moves on a scarfer, combine that with Yveltal's solid speed tier and offensive stats and you get a great scarfer that provides slower bulkier teams with the ability to check Marsh, gain muhmentum, and handle setup sweepers.
 

Aberforth

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If ur not memeing with things like Ho-oh to C+, then you're just completely out of touch. Those proposals are all laughable aside from Mega Lati to B+ and Marshadow to S imo. Groudon being moved down to A+ in particular, but Ho-oh to alongside shit like Ditto, Mega Gengar being on the same level as Lunala, goth moving above groudon, are all stupidly laughable.
 

Aliss

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Mellow don't feed the trolls smh

Edit to not have this be a one-liner, forwarding the Yveltal to A+ nomination. It's amazing offensive and defensive capabilites, along with pulling off a scarfed set pretty well, makes me feel that it's simply superior to the others in A.
 
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If ur not memeing with things like Ho-oh to C+, then you're just completely out of touch. Those proposals are all laughable aside from Mega Lati to B+ and Marshadow to S imo. Groudon being moved down to A+ in particular, but Ho-oh to alongside shit like Ditto, Mega Gengar being on the same level as Lunala, goth moving above groudon, are all stupidly laughable.
ho-oh is ridiculously rocks weak and have absolutely terrible match ups vs bulky goth balances that dominates the metagame right now. goth basically removes all of the possible defoggers outside of darkceus/ghostceus/gira-o/a. the remaining defoggers are extremely weak to marsh/yveltal meta. In short, ho-oh's viability is directly correlated with defog capability of other pokemon. the defog capability is simply too low for ho-oh to justify any team slot outside of few niche teams that it can work on. ho-oh appears great on paper when you don't factor in metagame trends for hazards. ho-oh rating has been inflated for 3 years straight anyways.

e: i dont care if you think i'm out of touch or not. i have been trying to make ho-oh work with 30 different teams and all different ways to approach ho-oh as a concept. it just does not work outside of favorable match ups.

gengar is largely outclassed by goth now. the previous role of revenge killing has been relegated to a far better ghost - marsh. so, the remaining niche for gengar is to trap key targets is outclassed by confide/charm goth outside of knock off gengar to beat shed shellers. i'm granting it B+ because i suppose that it can perform some strange hybrid of goth and marsh roles.

goth literally is more viable than p-groudon whether if you like it or not. goth can beat offense, balance, and stall depending on the set.

pdon used to be the premier rocker but now, with the rise of sr arceus designed to outlast chip and beat pdon and defoggers. pdon has lost basically half of its former roles. pdon only shines as an offensive threat now, and in my opinion, that's more than enough to move it into A region. you can cite usage as an argument all you want, but as far i'm concerned, the ladder is almost always 1-2 years behind the cutting edge of meta trends. you can go watch snake and seasonals games and notice a clear reduction in pdon usage and its changing niche.

bugceus deserve a rise as a decent anti-lead that can rock vs groundceus/grassceus/iceceus/deo-s leads without being trapped by goth while beating anti-meta defog trends. thx for nice memes.
 
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Fireburn

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Uhh...you are hopelessly out of touch.

Ho-Oh is better in this metagame, its one of the few good defensive checks to Marshadow and is still tough to swap into with HP Ice getting more common for Zygarde. Such teams have the option of running Defog Salamence as well which isn't fazed by Gothitelle teams. If you can't make it work in 30 attempts then I can only assume you don't understand how to use the mon - M Dragon literally 6-0ed someone in Snake Draft with Ho-Oh balance 2 days ago lol

Stall is declining somewhat as teams remember that stallbreakers exist - Dual Primal teams are rising in particular and most Stalls can't handle both of them being focused on wallbreaking sets. Groudon itself is starting to run Overheat and Toxic more to help combat Defog users (heck, Toxic is standard now) and is still by far the easiest Stealth Rock user to slot into teams, so the idea that Groudon has lost any of its former utility makes absolutely no sense.

Gothitelle is a threat but you really need to cut it with the hyperbole, it can't trap anything on offense except SR Arceus/Scarfers (which still can be worked around depending on the mon) and struggles with things like Dual Primal balances + teams that stack a lot of strong mons.

Gengar's offensive power cannot be matched by Gothitelle, it is not outclassed.

There is absolutely no way any of your nominations are happening, though we are open to ranking Mega Latias.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
I will agree about the Mgar nomination, I've stated before that it's roles in the meta as a trapper and fast revenge killer are being challenged by two mons (Marsh and Goth) that perform said roles much better. Goth is without a doubt the better trapper vs bulkier teams as it has the ability to handle supportceus, something that Mgar cannot do. And honestly removal of your opp's supportceus is more important most of the time than removing offensive threats commonly seen on bulky/balance such as Mega Mence, Ho-Oh and Pdon. (Mgar cant even effectively beat Mence and Pdon if they get a speed boost). On top of that Destiny Bond works like protect now and your opponent can win these encounters now if he plays mindgames right. And Marsh is just better as a speedy revenge killer in most cases imo. Doesn't take up your mega slot. Much harder to switch into. Possibility to set up on a switch. Strong Priority.

As I adressed a week or so ago. Mgar isn't nearly as splashable and viable as it was before due to its roles being done better by other mons and GF nerfs (dbond and no more levitate).
 
Seconding Mega Latias to be ranked, probably somewhere within the subranks of B.

It can reliably switch into most pdon variants and defog any rocks pdon has laid down or deal decent damage to pdon while remaining healthy throughout the match due to having reliable recovery (unlike gira-o which can get easily worn down). Lati can switch into mixed pdon sets that carry powerful special fire attacks and even ice coverage due to its typing and solid special bulk, whereas megamence cannot as effectively. Sets with dragon type moves, especially dragon tail or swords dance + dragon claw, which can pressure and break through mega lati, are uncommon.

Outside of checking pdon its mixed bulk and typing lets it switch into certain threats such as deoxys-a, mewtwo or pogre and threaten them out or damage them heavily with draco meteor or grass knot, although it often cannot counter them by itself. It can also ko slower mons that have been worn down or are weak to its attacks with its decent speed and offensive presence (unlike gira-a). It is also useful vs webs teams as it ignores sticky web and can defog it, and can outspeed and ko certain webs breakers/sweepers such as kyurem-w and sd ray, as well as psyspam teams due to its resistances and having the bulk to take an ice beam from psychic terrain abusers and hit back hard with draco meteor, though it often cannot deal with them alone due to deo's sash or mewtwo's bulk.

Finally, Lati can run Role Play to copy Shadow Tag to allow it to switch out of goth, giving it a niche over support defog arceus which just get trapped. In addition it can run Toxic for status spread and chip damage, Grass Knot for reliable damage on pdon and pogre or Refresh to remove status, allowing it to defog in front of support mons relying on status to deal damage and rockers that rely on toxic to pressure defoggers (without needing to subject itself to sleep unlike Rest users).

Obviously it has lots of flaws (takes up the mega slot- opportunity cost, threatened out by ghosts, darks and fairies, deals negligible damage to steels, fairies or specially bulky mons (if not running toxic for the latter two or grass knot for pogre) allowing them to set up all over it, stat drops from draco meteor mean it loses most of its offensive power after attacking with it, either weak to status or goth (or both) depending on its fourth move). It requires a lot of support to function optimally, and it's quite one-dimensional, but imo its ability to consistently switch into the best pokemon in the tier and stop it and its rocks in their tracks while having the option of being able to escape goth is enough to at least put it on the list somewhere in B.
 
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I will agree about the Mgar nomination, I've stated before that it's roles in the meta as a trapper and fast revenge killer are being challenged by two mons (Marsh and Goth) that perform said roles much better. Goth is without a doubt the better trapper vs bulkier teams as it has the ability to handle supportceus, something that Mgar cannot do. And honestly removal of your opp's supportceus is more important most of the time than removing offensive threats commonly seen on bulky/balance such as Mega Mence, Ho-Oh and Pdon. (Mgar cant even effectively beat Mence and Pdon if they get a speed boost). On top of that Destiny Bond works like protect now and your opponent can win these encounters now if he plays mindgames right. And Marsh is just better as a speedy revenge killer in most cases imo. Doesn't take up your mega slot. Much harder to switch into. Possibility to set up on a switch. Strong Priority.

As I adressed a week or so ago. Mgar isn't nearly as splashable and viable as it was before due to its roles being done better by other mons and GF nerfs (dbond and no more levitate).
Back then, in ORAS, MGengar had Perish Trap set to remove support Arceus. When MGar hadn't mega evolved, the set also allowed perish song (or substitute then perish song) on the switch and eliminated would-be switch-ins (some of them are also Marshadow check/blanket check like Ho-oh, Yveltal, Supportceus, Zygarde, to facilitate sweep). I don't follow Uber SM all that much, but I don't think there were many meta shifts that invalidated that set (which doesn't run dbond nor need levitate)
As a speedy revenge killer, the opponent can't switch out from MGengar, which distinguishes it from Marshadow.
But yeah, I don't follow SM Uber that much. Just my opinion on the subject.
 
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Nominating lando for c, Ive seen lando being used way more often on the reason that it can check PDon extreamly well, and can switch into it precipice plates without a scratch, it hits very hard with stab/orb/sheer force earth power it seems to work very well and be reasonably viable on ether extreamly offensive oriented teams, or a lot of other teams that need ether a primal groudon counter or a wall breaker
 
Seconding Mega Latias to be ranked, probably somewhere within the subranks of B.

It can reliably switch into most pdon variants and defog any rocks pdon has laid down or deal decent damage to pdon while remaining healthy throughout the match due to having reliable recovery (unlike gira-o which can get easily worn down). Lati can switch into mixed pdon sets that carry powerful special fire attacks and even ice coverage due to its typing and solid special bulk, whereas megamence cannot as effectively. Sets with dragon type moves, especially dragon tail or swords dance + dragon claw, which can pressure and break through mega lati, are uncommon.

Outside of checking pdon its mixed bulk and typing lets it switch into certain threats such as deoxys-a, mewtwo or pogre and threaten them out or damage them heavily with draco meteor or grass knot, although it often cannot counter them by itself. It can also ko slower mons that have been worn down or are weak to its attacks with its decent speed and offensive presence (unlike gira-a). It is also useful vs webs teams as it ignores sticky web and can defog it, and can outspeed and ko certain webs breakers/sweepers such as kyurem-w and sd ray, as well as psyspam teams due to its resistances and having the bulk to take an ice beam from psychic terrain abusers and hit back hard with draco meteor, though it often cannot deal with them alone due to deo's sash or mewtwo's bulk.

Finally, Lati can run Role Play to copy Shadow Tag to allow it to switch out of goth, giving it a niche over support defog arceus which just get trapped. In addition it can run Toxic for status spread and chip damage, Grass Knot for reliable damage on pdon and pogre or Refresh to remove status, allowing it to defog in front of support mons relying on status to deal damage and rockers that rely on toxic to pressure defoggers (without needing to subject itself to sleep unlike Rest users).

Obviously it has lots of flaws (takes up the mega slot- opportunity cost, threatened out by ghosts, darks and fairies, deals negligible damage to steels, fairies or specially bulky mons (if not running toxic for the latter two or grass knot for pogre) allowing them to set up all over it, stat drops from draco meteor mean it loses most of its offensive power after attacking with it, either weak to status or goth (or both) depending on its fourth move). It requires a lot of support to function optimally, and it's quite one-dimensional, but imo its ability to consistently switch into the best pokemon in the tier and stop it and its rocks in their tracks while having the option of being able to escape goth is enough to at least put it on the list somewhere in B.
I don't think mega latias should be B, their are many other options that won't use your mega slot, and can do the same thing just as effectively
 

Ropalme1914

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I don't think mega latias should be B, their are many other options that won't use your mega slot, and can do the same thing just as effectively
Which Pokémon? Giratina-O is the closest thing that we have, but like Serial Ekiller said, it lacks reliable recovery (which is huge for a Primal Groudon check) while also having other advantages like good Speed tier and checking other Pokémon like Deoxys and Primal Kyogre if running Grass Knot. To me, B is a perfect rank for it.
 
Which Pokémon? Giratina-O is the closest thing that we have, but like Serial Ekiller said, it lacks reliable recovery (which is huge for a Primal Groudon check) while also having other advantages like good Speed tier and checking other Pokémon like Deoxys and Primal Kyogre if running Grass Knot. To me, B is a perfect rank for it.
I was thinking of giritina-o if you didn't want to waste your mega slot, or mega-mence works ok with a Defog set Marcus ground can fill the role of PDon check decoder brilliantly as well, and it has a resistance to all most all, if not all normal PDon moves arches water could also work, but would be a worse option because of desolate land... those are things I would use in place of ether of the mega eon twins
 
I was thinking of giritina-o if you didn't want to waste your mega slot, or mega-mence works ok with a Defog set Marcus ground can fill the role of PDon check decoder brilliantly as well, and it has a resistance to all most all, if not all normal PDon moves arches water could also work, but would be a worse option because of desolate land... those are things I would use in place of ether of the mega eon twins
Yeah, but the difference is that Mega Latias, as said before, can easily act as a Psyspam check and as a Primal Kyogre Check, which neither of Arceus ground/water or Mega Mence can do. Also, yes, it does cost a Mega slot, but this is also partly why it isn't ranked higher than the mons you cited.
 
Uhh...you are hopelessly out of touch.

Ho-Oh is better in this metagame, its one of the few good defensive checks to Marshadow and is still tough to swap into with HP Ice getting more common for Zygarde. Such teams have the option of running Defog Salamence as well which isn't fazed by Gothitelle teams. If you can't make it work in 30 attempts then I can only assume you don't understand how to use the mon - M Dragon literally 6-0ed someone in Snake Draft with Ho-Oh balance 2 days ago lol

Stall is declining somewhat as teams remember that stallbreakers exist - Dual Primal teams are rising in particular and most Stalls can't handle both of them being focused on wallbreaking sets. Groudon itself is starting to run Overheat and Toxic more to help combat Defog users (heck, Toxic is standard now) and is still by far the easiest Stealth Rock user to slot into teams, so the idea that Groudon has lost any of its former utility makes absolutely no sense.

Gothitelle is a threat but you really need to cut it with the hyperbole, it can't trap anything on offense except SR Arceus/Scarfers (which still can be worked around depending on the mon) and struggles with things like Dual Primal balances + teams that stack a lot of strong mons.

Gengar's offensive power cannot be matched by Gothitelle, it is not outclassed.

There is absolutely no way any of your nominations are happening, though we are open to ranking Mega Latias.
mind if i take a few jabs at this?

You mention Ho-oh, a defensive check to marsh, which is true when you running defensive, then you mention Defog Salamence pairing well with it. After that u say it isn't phazed by goth teams, but I hate to tell you but a charm goth traps both. With the right switch you can easily pp stall both pokemon. Furthermore, you menioned m dragon 6-0ing in snake with a ho-oh team, which is true. However, you're completely ignoring the fact that it dodged a crucial toxic. Gothitelle can easily trap things on offense with just a tiny bit of support, like memento, wisp or paras. I believe Gothitelle is better than Gengar. It doesn't waste a mega slot, it can actually switch in the things it traps, it gives other stuff free setup and such. I think you're really underrating it. I am certain many agree with me and I think you lacked experience against goth yourself, but you can just wait on saturday ;)
 
Yeah, but the difference is that Mega Latias, as said before, can easily act as a Psyspam check and as a Primal Kyogre Check, which neither of Arceus ground/water or Mega Mence can do. Also, yes, it does cost a Mega slot, but this is also partly why it isn't ranked higher than the mons you cited.
Personally I think it's just not worth the mega slot... Id rather use megamence and another ogre check, I agree it could be used if you need a designer and have an extra mega slot, but the problem is it fits on such a small variety of teams it's just not usable on most user teams
 
ho-oh is ridiculously rocks weak and have absolutely terrible match ups vs bulky goth balances that dominates the metagame right now. goth basically removes all of the possible defoggers outside of darkceus/ghostceus/gira-o/a. the remaining defoggers are extremely weak to marsh/yveltal meta. In short, ho-oh's viability is directly correlated with defog capability of other pokemon. the defog capability is simply too low for ho-oh to justify any team slot outside of few niche teams that it can work on. ho-oh appears great on paper when you don't factor in metagame trends for hazards. ho-oh rating has been inflated for 3 years straight anyways.

e: i dont care if you think i'm out of touch or not. i have been trying to make ho-oh work with 30 different teams and all different ways to approach ho-oh as a concept. it just does not work outside of favorable match ups.

gengar is largely outclassed by goth now. the previous role of revenge killing has been relegated to a far better ghost - marsh. so, the remaining niche for gengar is to trap key targets is outclassed by confide/charm goth outside of knock off gengar to beat shed shellers. i'm granting it B+ because i suppose that it can perform some strange hybrid of goth and marsh roles.

goth literally is more viable than p-groudon whether if you like it or not. goth can beat offense, balance, and stall depending on the set.

pdon used to be the premier rocker but now, with the rise of sr arceus designed to outlast chip and beat pdon and defoggers. pdon has lost basically half of its former roles. pdon only shines as an offensive threat now, and in my opinion, that's more than enough to move it into A region. you can cite usage as an argument all you want, but as far i'm concerned, the ladder is almost always 1-2 years behind the cutting edge of meta trends. you can go watch snake and seasonals games and notice a clear reduction in pdon usage and its changing niche.

bugceus deserve a rise as a decent anti-lead that can rock vs groundceus/grassceus/iceceus/deo-s leads without being trapped by goth while beating anti-meta defog trends. thx for nice memes.
Bugceus absolutely does not deserve a raise... it's not an effective antilead due to the fact that deoxys-S isn't very common and suicide leads, peticialrly deoxys-A are becoming less and less common. Also the most important reason is that PDon, the most common lead in the game, which has a role on virtually every single team in ubers can completely destroy it, plus if you actually waste your arceus spot on bugceus just to have an antilead with such a small role is absurd, if you use any Arceus form as an Antilles, clearly ground is the best choice cause it can pummel the most common lead in the meta, as well as other less common leads like deoxys s and deoxys-a or the rarer dialga lead... those reasons cause it to have little to no niche in ubers, even if theirs another lead I'm forgetting it's rare enough not to be worth caring a bad defensive and offensive Arceus type for... just go with ground, extreme killer Arceus or even Arceus ice, because it can still hammer PDon with subzero slammer
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Personally I think it's just not worth the mega slot... Id rather use megamence and another ogre check, I agree it could be used if you need a designer and have an extra mega slot, but the problem is it fits on such a small variety of teams it's just not usable on most user teams
If you want your mega to have the primary role of defogger, you're much better off running M-Latias. Personally I've never seen a good application of defog Mega Mence because the primary reason people run it over Groundceus is that Mence doesn't lose to Goth, but imo the only teams it fits on are ho-oh balance teams that need a supportceus anyway. The argument for M-Latias is that it can defog while offering more offensive presence than uninvested Groundceus and also having the ability to switch into Pogre and even give Healing Wish support. Im not quite sure you understand the nature of this thread, generally the mons from B rank down are there because they have a specific niche, not because they're generally amazing. Bugceus doesn't fit well on most teams, but certain ones weak to Goth and hazards could benefit from it more than they could from Groundceus.
 
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Pigeons

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I just want to point out that MLatias does not switch into POgre or any relevant Psyspam mon like people are saying unless it invests fully into SpDef, otherwise it just gets 2hkod on the switch (either from 2 Ice Beams or OPulse + Ice Beam after rocks). Heck, Latias even loses to a full health POgre 1v1 because Grass Knot fails to 2hko while Ice Beam easily gets the 2hko. Similarly both Deoxys-A and Mewtwo 2hko it, so saying Latias is a check to psyspam isn't really true. Latias can't even switch into resisted attacks from these Pokemon without getting KOd by a coverage move after rocks, and considering its primary role is as a Defogger that will be happening often.

The notion that Latias somehow has more offensive presence than Groundceus is pretty silly considering it's much weaker against the things it's supposed to check. Groundceus Judgment is far more threatening to PDon than Latia's Draco Meteor, being slightly stronger against other irrelevant things hardly matters given that Dragon coverage isn't that great in the current meta.

Nobody seems to be bringing up all the shortcomings Latias has in the meta, such as losing to every relevant Steel, Fairy and Dark type on the VR while not checking many relevant threats other than PDon. Looking at the VR Latias loses to most of the things from S to A- besides PDon, Zygarde-C and defensive Mega Mence. It's also vulnerable to every form of trapping, MGar doesn't like taking a Draco but easily KOs a weakened Latias, Pursuit puts massive pressure on it and Gothitelle just traps. Latias also has horrible 4mss, Defog and Recover are required which leaves just 2 slots for Draco to do damage, Refresh to not lose to Toxic PDon, Toxic to not get ignored by anything not weak to Draco, Grass Knot to threaten POgre and Role Play to not get trapped by Gothitelle (though I don't think this is ever worth it). These shortcomings also come with the fact that you have to waste your Mega slot on this thing, and I fail to see how this is ever worth it.

If MLatias is going to be ranked it shouldn't go higher than C+, where a very comparable mon in Arceus-Dragon resides. Both come with very large opportunity cost, struggle against Steel and Fairy-types while being niche checks to PDon by virtue of typing. They're not identical, Latias is a better check to PDon thanks to Levitate while Dragceus is a better Salamence check thanks to its far superior physical bulk.

Latias might have a niche as a Defogger but it has far too many shortcomings to be ranked alongside Pokemon like Chansey, Magearna and Tyranitar that generally have greater utility without sacrificing the use of a Mega slot. People need to stop overhyping Latias just because it checks the best Pokemon in the meta, it fails to do much other than that at a great cost to the teambuilder. I'd also be interested in seeing some high-level replays with Latias as I have yet to see it successfully used.
 
If you want your mega to have the primary role of defogger, you're much better off running M-Latias. Personally I've never seen a good application of defog Mega Mence because the primary reason people run it over Groundceus is that Mence doesn't lose to Goth, but imo the only teams it fits on are ho-oh balance teams that need a supportceus anyway. The argument for M-Latias is that it can defog while offering more offensive presence than uninvested Groundceus and also having the ability to switch into Pogre and even give Healing Wish support. Im not quite sure you understand the nature of this thread, generally the mons from B rank down are there because they have a specific niche, not because they're generally amazing. Bugceus doesn't fit well on most teams, but certain ones weak to Goth and hazards could benefit from it more than they could from Groundceus.
Any argument about bugceus being anything but D rank is ridiculous, there are many other checks to goth that won't waste an extremely important Arceus slot, I personally see it as one of the worst, if not the worst Arceus type in game
 
e: i dont care if you think i'm out of touch or not. i have been trying to make ho-oh work with 30 different teams and all different ways to approach ho-oh as a concept. it just does not work outside of favorable match ups.


bugceus deserve a rise as a decent anti-lead that can rock vs groundceus/grassceus/iceceus/deo-s leads without being trapped by goth while beating anti-meta defog trends. thx for nice memes.
you kinda contradict yourselft right there
 
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