Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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I'm not so sure about that. I just started using Marshadow in Ubers, and I can say, it's very solid.

Obviously, the biggest thing it has going for it is an awesome Ghost/Fighting STAB combo, meaning it can hit every important Pokemon in the tier for at least neutral damage. 125 speed allows it to outspeed Arceus and Mega Lucario, as well as speed-tieing with Darkrai. Spectral Thief is an amazing move, being able to steal stat boosts. This makes it a reliable check to Extreme Killer Arceus. Meanwhile, it's z-move, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike (say that 10 times fast), allows it to break down walls like Primal Groudon when paired with Bulk Up. It can also dispose of Mega Gengar, Mewtwo and Deoxys-A with Technician Shadow Sneak.

Lemme show you some calcs.


+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 306-361 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 357-421 (88.3 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 322-381 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 484-571 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 254-302 (71.9 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 330-393 (93.4 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 424-502 (99.2 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Final rating: A-, maybe even A.
I've been using it a fair amount as well and I agree with everything you say, believe me. I even made an RMT for it using a Focus Sash set that's been working wonders for me as a means of having an emergency button on deck for physical set up sweppers like DD Salamence/Ray/Double Dance Don. However, again, it just came out, and while first impressions are pretty solid for it, we still have yet to see how the meta can continue to adapt to this new addition.
 
while i do agree that it is a bit early to rank marshadow, if it IS going to be ranked personally i think it should be ranked somewhere in b or the bottom of b+. while being a strong mon that has a niche in checking offensive threats in arceus ghost ekiller and some other setup mons it is very lacking when it is matching up vs stall or most extremely bulky bulky teams as it lacks reliable setup moves itself outside of stealing boosts from mons with spectral. i just dont feel its deserving of a place in the A tier with stall as popular as it is in the current meta
 
Right time to talk about marshadow. It doesn't look like I'm the first person to mention the mon, but I'm nominating marshadow to A+. Purely due to the fact that it's unresisted stab coverage allows it to 1v1 most of the tier. The only mons that can truely deal with it effectively are defensive yveltal and arceus fairy as (it could also be argued that aegislash can beat it 1v1 if it gets 50-50s right, but that mon isn't exactly high in viability ranks).

Furthermore it's certainly not a mon that has a limited amount of sets. It can run rock tomb to deal with ho-oh, hidden power ice to bop mence and also while I'm not a personal fan - it has access to poison jab to pressure xerneas and fairyceus. An interesting calc to consider is a hypothetical bulk up set with poisonium-z

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Acid Downpour (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 410-484 (92.3 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

But as for currently viable sets, it can easily run choice band, scarf life orb, marhadium z and even within the life orb and z move sets it has the option to either run bulk up or be an all out attacking mon.
Yes this mon is new to the metagame, but I don't see that that meaning that it'll get any worse. It's already forcing people to adapt their teambuilding to be able to check the mon and marshadow and not even all of its potential sets have been discovered
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
I'm not so sure about that. I just started using Marshadow in Ubers, and I can say, it's very solid.

Obviously, the biggest thing it has going for it is an awesome Ghost/Fighting STAB combo, meaning it can hit every important Pokemon in the tier for at least neutral damage. 125 speed allows it to outspeed Arceus and Mega Lucario, as well as speed-tieing with Darkrai. Spectral Thief is an amazing move, being able to steal stat boosts. This makes it a reliable check to Extreme Killer Arceus. Meanwhile, it's z-move, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike (say that 10 times fast), allows it to break down walls like Primal Groudon when paired with Bulk Up. It can also dispose of Mega Gengar, Mewtwo and Deoxys-A with Technician Shadow Sneak.

Lemme show you some calcs.


+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 306-361 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 357-421 (88.3 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Water: 322-381 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 484-571 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 254-302 (71.9 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 330-393 (93.4 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 424-502 (99.2 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Final rating: A-, maybe even A.
First off, half of these calcs are bs since when is Marsh getting that boost? There's about as much situations where Marsh can boost as there are situations where Phero can quiver dance. There's too many mons that either OHKO it or 2HKO it after the boost.

As for the other ones, last time I checked a 25% chance to OHKO Mgar and a guaranteed 2HKO on Mewtwo-Y isn't impressive. If anything it's a flaw. And I'm going to ignore the fact that you listed "it can OHKO Deo-A" as a reason why it's viable.

Overall it's a solid mon that has the ability to check SD Arceus forms (that already are used a lot less this gen) but that's about it. It can't put a big enough dent into the main Ubers mons like Pdon, Xern, and Yveltal to be able to warrant a slot in A like some of the other posters on here suggested. I feel like I should write more but there just isn't much to say. It's a good check to SD Arceus forms, but it lacks the power to do anything else.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
How about we don't talk about marshadow until it's been at least a week? (personally I see a+ as well - SS7SS will be godly and it'll be a ghost fighting sweeper that outdoes ghostceus at sweeping when imo ghostceus is very underrated as it is)
in the meantime, I'm still gonna push hard on Giratina-O to bottom of A. this thing is THE offensive defogger. with things like ho oh needing defog, this fits on tons of offensive teams. i'll write more when it's not like 11 pm but for now that's it.
EDIT: Alright, not A+ maybe, but at least high a.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Y'know, after seeing the responses to my previous post, maybe we should wait a bit before further discussion. It seems like everyone here thinks it's either gonna be a top-tier offensive threat (jstoward and BPGXMG), or that it's over-hyped trash (kilometerman).

I mean, personally, I think B+ or A- would be fine. But A+? Seems like a bit of an exaggeration, at least to me. After all, 125 attack is not that great by Ubers standards, and while Technician is good, it's not on the same level as Lucario's Adaptability or Salamence's Aerilate.

Let's make a deal. How about we still discuss Marshadow, but we don't leave our final votes on where it should be placed until after a week or so?
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Right time to talk about marshadow. It doesn't look like I'm the first person to mention the mon, but I'm nominating marshadow to A+. Purely due to the fact that it's unresisted stab coverage allows it to 1v1 most of the tier. The only mons that can truely deal with it effectively are defensive yveltal and arceus fairy as (it could also be argued that aegislash can beat it 1v1 if it gets 50-50s right, but that mon isn't exactly high in viability ranks).

Furthermore it's certainly not a mon that has a limited amount of sets. It can run rock tomb to deal with ho-oh, hidden power ice to bop mence and also while I'm not a personal fan - it has access to poison jab to pressure xerneas and fairyceus. An interesting calc to consider is a hypothetical bulk up set with poisonium-z

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Acid Downpour (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 410-484 (92.3 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

But as for currently viable sets, it can easily run choice band, scarf life orb, marhadium z and even within the life orb and z move sets it has the option to either run bulk up or be an all out attacking mon.
Yes this mon is new to the metagame, but I don't see that that meaning that it'll get any worse. It's already forcing people to adapt their teambuilding to be able to check the mon and marshadow and not even all of its potential sets have been discovered
"Purely due to the fact that it's unresisted stab coverage allows it to 1v1 most of the tier."
Blatantly untrue, the only mons that it always beats 1v1 in the first couple ranks are the SD Arceus forms and Mega Luke. You can say that it hits the whole tier neutrally as other people did but to suggest that it can beat mons like Pdon and Xerneas is ridiculous. It's pretty obvious you messed up some of your calcs so Im just going to ignore the rest of that first part.

It can run a lot of sets but running specific ones take away from your ability to deal with other bigger threats (if you run rock tomb, you're missing out on Mega Mence kills, for example). That Fairyceus calc is ridiculous, mainly since Marsh barely gets any opportunities to set up and also because why would it be running Poisonium Z? If its not banded or life orbed it can't even OHKO Mgar with its own SE STAB. Also, the only real changes people are making is not using teams with SD Arceus on them (something people have been doing since the beginning of SM) and probably more Yveltal usage. That's not enough to be a significant change in the meta that the other A+ mons have.
 
Right time to talk about marshadow. It doesn't look like I'm the first person to mention the mon, but I'm nominating marshadow to A+. Purely due to the fact that it's unresisted stab coverage allows it to 1v1 most of the tier. The only mons that can truely deal with it effectively are defensive yveltal and arceus fairy as (it could also be argued that aegislash can beat it 1v1 if it gets 50-50s right, but that mon isn't exactly high in viability ranks).

Furthermore it's certainly not a mon that has a limited amount of sets. It can run rock tomb to deal with ho-oh, hidden power ice to bop mence and also while I'm not a personal fan - it has access to poison jab to pressure xerneas and fairyceus. An interesting calc to consider is a hypothetical bulk up set with poisonium-z

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Acid Downpour (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 410-484 (92.3 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

But as for currently viable sets, it can easily run choice band, scarf life orb, marhadium z and even within the life orb and z move sets it has the option to either run bulk up or be an all out attacking mon.
Yes this mon is new to the metagame, but I don't see that that meaning that it'll get any worse. It's already forcing people to adapt their teambuilding to be able to check the mon and marshadow and not even all of its potential sets have been discovered
ok now A+ is a bit far theres no way you can tell me that this thing is in the same level as mega luke mgar mmence or ygod when it s basically a deadweight mon vs stall.not trying to be rude but theres no way this thing is a+ material imo
 
ok now A+ is a bit far theres no way you can tell me that this thing is in the same level as mega luke mgar mmence or ygod when it s basically a deadweight mon vs stall.not trying to be rude but theres no way this thing is a+ material imo
Yeah to be fair, I haven't tested marshadow against stall. It's just a mon that offense will have an annoying time dealing with. It's completely crippled by status and yeah, if it doesn't ohko you, it's going to take a hell of a lot of damage. I still personally believe it'll have enough of an impact on the metagame to be A rank, but yeah I suppose A+ is excessive
 
First off, half of these calcs are bs since when is Marsh getting that boost? There's about as much situations where Marsh can boost as there are situations where Phero can quiver dance. There's too many mons that either OHKO it or 2HKO it after the boost.

As for the other ones, last time I checked a 25% chance to OHKO Mgar and a guaranteed 2HKO on Mewtwo-Y isn't impressive. If anything it's a flaw. And I'm going to ignore the fact that you listed "it can OHKO Deo-A" as a reason why it's viable.

Overall it's a solid mon that has the ability to check SD Arceus forms (that already are used a lot less this gen) but that's about it. It can't put a big enough dent into the main Ubers mons like Pdon, Xern, and Yveltal to be able to warrant a slot in A like some of the other posters on here suggested. I feel like I should write more but there just isn't much to say. It's a good check to SD Arceus forms, but it lacks the power to do anything else.
While marshadow may not be on the same level as the a ranks, I do not see what you mean by saying "how is it getting these boosts." The post clearly states that alongside bulk up, marshadow can do a clean amount to a noticeable portion to the defensive pivots in Ubers. Marshadow acquiring these boosts is not an impossibility either; Marshadow boosting on a predicted switch such as Lunala or Ekiller is not some task that is unheard of. This is not even taking into account the fact that it is not difficult to wear down the supposed threats which you mentioned could tank a hit and strike back.

Regarding the priority calculations, while it may not seem impressive that marshadow cannot straight up KO threats like mega mewtwo y and mega gengar, the purpose of the calculation was to indicate that marshadow cannot even be checked by a good number of faster threats that otherwise are known for their ability to check a large portion of the offensive threats in the tier thanks to their great speed tiers.

I am sorry if this seemed hostile or abrasive, but I just did not think that you completely understood what he was trying to say in his post. Marshadow may be a bit overrated, I agree, but realistically, in practice it is actually a very scary threat due to the fact that a lot of its checks can no longer switch in if it carries bulk up, has acquired a boost, and are worn down to the appropriate amount. Other marshadow sets pose more of a threat initially, such as life orb, so the versatility of it is definitely something to look out for. While I am aware that we should not discuss the ranking of this Pokémon yet, I would say that B plus sounds like a good spot for it.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
I'm not hug into postin and I will not be giving barely any reasoning at all for my thoughts because I'm hoping others will just bow down and accept. kek jk I feel like my opinion fits a ton of people so hopefully they speak on it too because I ain't going that in depth. Everyone be patient with the marshadow ranking it's gonna take awhile if the person who's running this keeps his word. Anyways discussion is healthy so that's cool. I'd put it in B+ above deo s and below alo muk. I'm pretty sure most people can agree it's somewhere around b - a-. It's can put in work against most playstyles. The most common set is the lo dual stabs/sneak/hp ice or rock tomb and that shit go hams vs offensive squads while being able to put in work vs stall if it's not pex stall. It's not a stallbreaker and as most people know nowadays theres not really dedicated stallbreakers anymore because stall is just that good. There are mons however that can put in work and defeat stall with the right plays and pressure. Marshadow is 1 of them. Anyways that leads me into my actual nom which is a small jump but worth it.
Toxapex from B to B+ maybe even A- this mon is so hype. Idk if it's because I'm best friends with acacia or what but the pex fetish has grown on me. Stall is the best playstyle and with marshadow being released it just became even better than it was for stall because it's one of the only consistent checks to it. Most things on stall like msab or supportceus can be chipped and then it won't be able to come in on a life orb attack. Toxapex doesn't have that problem due to regen. It's gonna stay healthy and wall marsh to the end of days if its the life orb set. I'm not sure if bulk up marsh is gonna get a lot of usage but 1 thing to note is toxapex needs to be at max health to be able to survive a +1 z move. 80-90 or something is what I think the calc but anyways marsh will never get to +2 so your chillen if you are at 100% hp coming in. It can haze and switch out and able to recover hp with regen so it can even check that set. Alice is running baneful bunker tho so watch out. Anyways it's a reliable check to marsh and makes stall actually secure vs it which is nice. I could go on and list all the other shit pex does but I bet you guys already know. I thought even without marsh released it deserved a spot at low b+ so I think this will merit it to move up.
 

Fireburn

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I talked about this in the general discussion thread but people really undersell how much Marshadow threatens stall:
Fireburn said:
I think Marshadow is a bit better versus defensive teams than people give it credit for. A lot of people say it gets blanked by Supportceus but that's not always true - the standard supportceus on stall nowadays is 192 Speed Timid Arceus-Ground (aka the one you use so you don't die to Lucario) which is 2HKOed by LO Close Combat after Stealth Rock:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Ground: 200-238 (45 - 53.6%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (~35% w/o SR)

Even 132 Def Bold Supportceus is taking 39-46% from LO CC so with a minor bit of chip damage from, say, Toxic PDon, Marshadow has a very realistic chance of breaking through. That's not to say stall can't handle Marshadow - Phys Def Toxapex, Defensive Ho-Oh (no SR or Rock Tomb), and healthy Phys Def Mega Sableye (unless Marsh has Bulk Up and Sab lacks Wisp) can check it - but I think stall builds will have to be reconfigured as the old standard of Lugia/Giratina/Groundceus/Clefable/Muk-A/Ferrothorn won't work well anymore in a Marshadow meta. I'm willing to bet the "modern" stall team will shift to focus around Toxapex and/or Ho-Oh builds.
It's only been almost a week sure, but Marshadow has already forced stall builds to change - almost all of the modern stalls I've seen have used Toxapex or Ho-Oh instead of the old standard. IMO it's a bit too early to pass final judgment still, but between this and how much Marshadow threatens HO it's definitely having a significant impact on the metagame already. It should get a rank to reflect that - obviously we need to wait for some more time to pass, but if I had to rank it right now I'd probably put it at the bottom of A.
 
After having tested Marshadow pretty extensively. About 80 to 100 games across several throwaway accounts I feel I could add something to the discussion. Marshadow is a gigantic threat against offensive builds, and even a lot of Balanced Builds, really only suffering against Sticky Web. I have found its ability to clean up is incredible, and it pairs up extremely well with a lot of bulky sweepers like Yveltal, Z-Geomancy Xerneas, and Special Pdon. In particular it and Mega Lucario have very similar checks, and can form a sort of Double Fighting core that allows the pair to easily break through Balance cores, as well as having a way to pressure stall. The three sets I have tested the most are

Z-Marsh. Much better in the stall matchup. Smashes through Ho-oh and Toxapex,

Life Orb, definitely its best set vs Balance and for balance I have to add. Its STABS seem to always bring everything just into range of its Teammates to KO. It checks a lot of the things that balance REALLY struggles with, SD Arceus variants, Some CM Arceus Variants, Z-Hypnosis Lunala, Mega Lucario, Rayquaza and Deoxys Attack just to name a few.

Choice Band, by far the worst of the sets I've used, its fun though. It actually does quite a bit with Shadow Sneak so it can serve as a secondary check to stuff like Rayquaza, Geo-Xern, and Choice Band allows it to beat some of its stall checks like Ho-oh, but also makes it a huge liability vs stuff like Mega Salamence if its locked into Close Combat. Its still there though.

I'd have to say Marshadow fits perfectly into A- and should be below Zygarde but above Rayquaza. I've been very surprised by it, initially feeling like it'd wind up in C+, B-.
 

aurora

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It's too early to rank Marshadow as yet, but I'd put it mid-A. Forcing stall teams to prepare for it in the way it has (pex) is a reflection of its viability, not a lack thereof, and it is obviously very strong against HO while also a solid asset to it for its ability to revenge kill various Pokemon that threaten HO, such as Lunala and Arceus, with its high Speed, concise but effective movepool, and fantastic typing.

Toxapex should move up to the top or middle of B+ (is A- overkill?) due to how it has become even more useful to stall teams as an effective physical wall (Earthquake-less Ho-Oh and Mega Lucario, to name a few Pokemon, lose to it), check to Marshadow, solid Toxic Spikes user, excellent Z-Geomancy Xerneas check, and defensive pivot thanks to Regenerator. Obviously, it has flaws in that it is setup bait for Ground-types, but all good stalls are going to have ways of dealing with them and Regenerator actually rewards Toxapex for switching out of them! It is also somewhat vulnerable to Mega Gengar but Mega Gengar has better things to do than remove Toxapex and be rendered less useful as a result through Scald chip damage.

This next nomination is a bit less important, but something I feel needs correcting, which is why it is in hide tags to save you the trouble if lengthy dissertations on frosty Arceus formes are not your cup of tea.

Arceus-Ice should drop to the bottom of B- and I wouldn't be opposed to it dropping even further. The metagame is just really unfavourable to it. The shift away from offensive teams this generation, which Arceus-Ice was strong against in ORAS, has really hurt it and I honestly feel like it being B rank was a holdover from ORAS.

When was the last time you were able to fit it onto a team or the last time it was sighted in a tournament match? I realise that usage isn't the best indicator of viability, but come on. It was almost unsighted in both SPL and UPL; is the reluctance of any high-level player to use it not a sign of how difficult it is to justify? 99% of the time, I would rather run defensive Arceus-Ground. That Pokemon was nowhere near as common at the beginning of the generation, yet now it is a staple on fatter teams. Ice Beam still heavily damages the 4x Ice weak Dragon-types Arceus-Ice is meant to check, and Arceus-Ground's far better defensive typing and ability to fit Ice-type coverage alongside its Ground-type STAB allow it to check a much larger range of threats. Some offensive teams might appreciate Arceus-Ice's abilities, and it has a decent matchup against certain hyper offensive teams, such as Excadrill + Mega Salamence teams. However, defensive Arceus-Ground has a similarly good matchup against these teams, as well as a wider variety of HO, and contributes much more to a team in general. I suppose Arceus-Ground doesn't fit as well on offense, but this is still very niche and, as I will detail in the next paragraph, quite irrelevant.

I'd argue Ice-type STAB isn't even that acceptable of a niche anymore, as Ice resists are much more common now than they were last generation. Primal Kyogre is a pain. Mega Lucario isn't even 2HKOed by Judgment; incidentally, Arceus-Ice's matchup against that thing is almost as bad as Arceus-Dark's. Any balance team with Magearna has an automatic hard stop to it. Bulkier teams will have at least one solid Ice resist: think Tentacruel, Toxapex, Arceus-Water, or ridiculously bulky specially bulky Pokemon like Ho-Oh which might as well be Ice resists. The newest introduction to the tier, Marshadow, also puts an end to Arceus-Ice's antics; Life Orb Close Combat has a 75% to OHKO Arceus-Ice from full health and Marshadow can take a 0 SpA neutrally effective Judgment easily. If anything, Marshadow being such a useful asset to offensive teams worsens Arceus-Ice's matchup against them. Marshadow's introduction has forced the bulkier teams that Arceus-Ice already struggled against to run Pokemon such as Toxapex and Ho-Oh, which manhandle Arceus-Ice. Xerneas being so dominating has also resulted in Confide Blissey / Chansey becoming meta. These would have lost to Arceus-Ice in the past, but they too can overcome it.

To overcome (some of) these Pokemon, you can run Fire Blast or Thunder over Refresh. This is almost impossible to justify, though. Fire Blast prevents Mega Lucario, and the majority of Steels in general, from completely taking advantage of Arceus-Ice but otherwise offers redundant coverage with Judgment and does nothing to mitigate the problems created by bulkier Ice resists. Thunder is probably a more attractive option, but it has the same issue as Fire Blast: forgoing Refresh necessitates cleric support, a Poison-type, or entry hazard removal to ensure Arceus-Ice doesn't autolose to Toxic or Toxic Spikes, further limiting the amount of builds these variants of Arceus-Ice can fit on. This rather bad four-moveslot syndrome ensures that Arceus-Ice will always lose to a wide pool of dangerous Pokemon or cores. I'm not even going to get into Arceus-Ice's defensive typing, which is even more irredeemable than that of Arceus-Bug, leaves it vulnerable to super-effective coverage from the Pokemon it is supposed to check, and opens large holes in teams that are difficult to compensate for.

This Pokemon is much more difficult to justify than it was at the beginning of the generation and I feel its ranking should reflect that.
 
Arceus-Poison from C to B or even B+

Poisonceus is really underrated and definitely deserves a spot somewhere higher in the Ranks. If you play right with it you can stop so many threats such as Mega lucario, Primal ogre, Pdon, and plenty of common arc forms. It's typing keeps it from getting hit by toxic so it can usually SD without a problem. A +2 Z poison jab can take down so many mons. Ingrain Z Geoxern is usually hard to deal with, but you can easily catch your opponent off guard with Poisonceus since it's not common. Many arceus fairies have been popping up as well since the Marshadow release and you can easily switch into that too.
 
Arceus-Poison from C to B or even B+

Poisonceus is really underrated and definitely deserves a spot somewhere higher in the Ranks. If you play right with it you can stop so many threats such as Mega lucario, Primal ogre, Pdon, and plenty of common arc forms. It's typing keeps it from getting hit by toxic so it can usually SD without a problem. A +2 Z poison jab can take down so many mons. Ingrain Z Geoxern is usually hard to deal with, but you can easily catch your opponent off guard with Poisonceus since it's not common. Many arceus fairies have been popping up as well since the Marshadow release and you can easily switch into that too.
im far from experienced in this metagame but how does this stop pdon
 
Arceus-Poison from C to B or even B+

Poisonceus is really underrated and definitely deserves a spot somewhere higher in the Ranks. If you play right with it you can stop so many threats such as Mega lucario, Primal ogre, Pdon, and plenty of common arc forms. It's typing keeps it from getting hit by toxic so it can usually SD without a problem. A +2 Z poison jab can take down so many mons. Ingrain Z Geoxern is usually hard to deal with, but you can easily catch your opponent off guard with Poisonceus since it's not common. Many arceus fairies have been popping up as well since the Marshadow release and you can easily switch into that too.
I agree with this, actually. Mons such as Lugia, support Arceus formes besides Arceus-Ground that run Toxic + attacking move, Blissey and Chansey (watch for T-Wave variants tho) are set-up fodder for it. Also, since Toxapex generally runs special defense investment over physical, it dies to +2 Earthquake after Stealth Rock and has a 79% chance to be 2HKOd by +0 EQ without rocks. It's only hope is to get the low roll and Scald burn.

Edit: However, thinking about it now, while I think it deserves a rise, I don't think it's B+ or even B material. Arceus-Poison has a ton of shitty, and really common, matchups in the tier that coincide with its good matchups. Ground types like Arceus-Ground and Zygarde-C, Ghost types not named Mega Gengar, Steels that aren't EQ-weak like Celesteela, Skarmory, Bronzong, and Ferrothorn, and Psychics like Mewtwo and its mega forms as well as Deoxys-A give Arceus-Poison a lot of issues. It's because of these issues, too, that make a lot of Arceus-Poison builds really same-y due to the amount of support it needs to get going.

I think B- is the highest it should go, in my opinion. The good matchups Arceus-Poison has are quite noteworthy to say the least, but the mons in the tier that hinder it are quite numerous and are on a plethora of teams.
 
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The next (massive!) update is here. Marshadow has caused quite the stir in the tier as I'm sure we are all aware, and we (the VR council) decided that the rankings would require a large revamp to better reflect how things are shaping up and be a bit critical of mons that see little actual usage, so there has been a lot of internally passing nominations. Explaining all of them would take me about a year to type out so hopefully the majority are apparent to everyone! One thing to keep in mind is that the purpose of this thread is to act as a general guideline to the threats of the metagame - it does draw conclusions from a consensus of both the council and the community, but to individuals, some things would be placed differently in their minds, which is ok! Anyway, here is the slightly jumbled update list.

Update List:

Arceus-Ground: A+ >> S (below Xerneas)
Mega Lucario: A+ >> A (below Ho-Oh)
Marshadow: Unranked >> A (top of A)
Primal Kyogre: A- >> A (bottom of A)
Toxapex: B >> A- (bottom of A-)
Arceus-Normal: A >> A- (top of A-)
Arceus-Ghost: A- >> B- (below Landorus-T)
Lunala: A- >> B+ (below Deoxys-S)
Mega Gyarados: B- >> B (bottom of B)
Mega Sableye: B+ >> A- (above the newly placed Toxapex)
Arceus-Fairy: B >> A- (swapped places with Arceus-Dark)
Arceus-Dark: A- >> B (swapped places with Arceus-Fairy)
Arceus-Dragon: B >> C (below Mega Kangaskhan)
Alolan Muk: B+ >> B (below Magearna)
Arceus-Rock: B >> C+ (top of C+)
Pheromosa: B >> C (below the newly placed Aegislash)
Mega Tyranitar: B- >> B (below Giratina)
Mewtwo: B- >> C (top of C)
Mega Scizor: B- >> B (above Tyranitar)
Bronzong: B >> B- (below Palkia)
Arceus-Ice: B >> C (below the newly placed Mewtwo)
Darkrai: B >> C+ (above the newly placed Tapu Koko)
Solgaleo: B- >> C+ (bottom of C+)
Zekrom: B >> C+ (below the newly placed Arceus-Rock)
Shaymin-S: C+ >> B- (above Smeargle)
Arceus-Electric: C- >> C+ (below Mega Metagross)
Arceus-Poison: C >> C+ (above Shuckle)
Mega Slowbro: B- >> Unranked
Tapu Koko: B- >> C+
(above the newly placed Solgaleo)
Genesect: C >> C- (bottom of C-)
Wobbuffet: C+ >> Unranked
Xurkitree: C+ >> Unranked
Aegislash: C+ >> C
(below Arceus-Steel)
Landorus: C+ >> C (below the newly placed Aegislash)
Blaziken: C >> C- (above the newly placed Genesect)
Kyogre: C >> C- (top of C-)
Reshiram: C >> D (rest in peace)

Smaller Movements:

Ho-Oh: Moves up inside A (below the newly placed Marshadow)
Mega Blaziken: Falls a couple of spots in B+
Excadrill: Falls to the bottom of B+
Tapu Lele: Moves to the top of B
Buzzwole: Moves up inside B- (below Skarmory)
Clefable: Moves up inside B- (above Bronzong)

Even while a LOT has moved, there are likely a lot of discussion points, perhaps even more so due to the number of things that have moved. go nuts!
 

Ropalme1914

Ace Poker Player
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Can I ask a reason for why Mega Lucario dropped? Like, sure, Marshadow has a good matchup against him and Arceus-Ground rising is not the best news for him, but still, we got a drop for Lunala, Arceus-Ghost and Ekiller, and the raises of Arceus-Fairy (which most of time the support version does not run enough speed to outspeed Luke) and Kyogre-Primal also is good news for him.
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
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Goth needs to be ranked imo the current meta it's trapping ability can be absolutely devastating to bulkier teams
Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD or 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Charm
- Calm Mind
- Rest

At the moment, Goth is the best it's been since XY. The introduction of Marshadow forces HO teams (at least classic ORAS / SM builds) out of the metagame entirely, as they only pack 1-2 mons that live a move from Marsh (Xern / PDon) or outspeed and don't die to Shadow Sneak (Scarf Xern / Skymin / Scarf Yveltal). These offenses were historically the worst matchups for Goth teams but now the metagame is infested with stall and bulky balances. Goth preys on these types of teams. They rely on a core of bulky Arceus, generally supplemented with at least 1 more supportive mon Goth can trap. Once their bulkier mons are trapped, these teams can struggle to check a myriad of offensive threats and will lose the hazard war. Use Goth to support your offensive threats or for general stallbreaking in general. The Def EVs let it avoid the counter-trap from AV Muk (lives -2 97.5 Knock + -4 65 Knock + -4 Sneak + 2 rounds of poison) but also let support Arc Judg have a small chance to 3HKO after SR.

Arceus-Water
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Fairy

Celesteela
Ferrothorn
Bronzong

Chansey
Clefable
Toxapex

Scarf Xerneas
Scarf Tapu Lele

Have fun making some Goth squads
shoutout to zf for the goat post on the metagame discussion
here's a few relevant calcs for reference
vs supportceus
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 67-81 (19.4 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Scarf Xern
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 103-123 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 78-93 (22.6 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Celesteela
-2 0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Ferro
-2 4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (45 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 25-30 (7.2 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

vs Lele
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle: 105-124 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


apparently the crappy mobile teambuilder deleted my goth evs and i didn't realize for a while but the bolded replay goth has it's evs
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-607523725 goth traps ferrothorn then acts as a free switch vs marhsadow
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-607542020 goth revenges a xerneas and stops a lategame zygarde sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-607518505 goth traps klefki and then actually manages to pp stall msab)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-607603461 goth puts in a ton of work in this battle, trapping groundceus then later pp stalling ferro and beating geoxern and pogre

honestly not the greatest replays but hopefully they help show goths niche

even if goth can't (which it probably can't with most of the mons it traps) ko them, it can easily pp stall them with rest giving out free turns for it. goth does do virtually nothing vs ho, but vs bulky teams goth can easily punch holes and open opportunities for you to sweep.
Tldr goth and shadow tag are aids so it needs to go Unranked -> somewhere in C or C+
 
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Aberforth

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Someone mind explaining to me why Arc-Ground rose this rankings update? There was literally no discussion on it, no justification given for the rise, and I feel the introduction of Marshadow if anything made it worse, by making its SD set actively worse, and forcing its defensive set to chose between losing to it or to Lucario, as Fireburn demonstrated in his calcs.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
This shift was massive, and while many changes I agree with, there are some that do need to be looked into:
Arceus-Ground: A+ >> S (below Xerneas) - As Aberforth said, SD Groundceus is now much worse and bulky Groundceus has issues with Marshadow or Mega Luke depending on EVs. I honestly don't believe that versatility alone can propel this into S. IMO it's like Abra - the sets themselves are like A or A+ rank but the combined total of them is great. However, when IMO those sets were pretty much all A rank, that shouldn't propel it to S.
Marshadow: Unranked >> A (top of A) - I personally think this little guy belongs in A+, really. I think this has much more of an impact on the tier than Mega Luke, Pogre, Deoxys-A and Ho-oh rn. It has the strongest ghost nuke in a meta where ghost nukes are invaluable, but can also choose to go LO and just sweep. This entire tier update should be a testament to how influential having unresisted STAB, the ability to steal any boost and godly speed and coverage is.
Arceus-Dragon: B >> C (below Mega Kangaskhan) - OK I'd have seen a drop to C+ but C? This still offers a great alternative to Waterceus that can hit Pdon without causing 4MSS, and while Marshadow did hurt it and the SD set is now finally recognized as bad, I don't think this belongs in C. Also it's not below Mega Kanghaskhan as Nayrz said in their post - it's below Landorus-I. whoops i fixed that - Nayrz
Mega Tyranitar: B- >> B (below Giratina) - Um, why? This thing has most of its special bulk ruined by weather shifts, it faces massive competition from Mega Salamence with a worse typing to boot and Marshadow just rapes this thing with LO CC.
Xurkitree: C+ >> Unranked - https://media.giphy.com/media/yIsbuPCEOgNHO/giphy.gif

On a final note, I'd like to make a nom of my own: Mega Kangaskhan to C- (between Grassceus and Blaziken) or even D. This thing's time has come. Marshadow has arrived and it beats the shit out of it with LO CC unless it runs Sucker Punch. If it does so, it either drops Crunch and loses its reliable way of hitting Ghosts or it loses Fake Out which makes it lose its free chip on everything. It also provides no defensive utility vs Marshadow unless you're able to predict Sneak/Spectral Thief/SS7SS. This isn't mentioning that it's still competing with Mega Salamence- which does provide something against non-HP Ice Marshadows -, Mega Gengar - which can trap troublesome threats for Marshadow in return for stacking weaknesses and it can be EVed to survive 1 shadow sneak at full health (max/max hp/def guarantees the survival of 1 hit and yeah while it is a mediocre spread it is something and 0 SpA Shadow Balls still has a 56.3% chance to OHKO) and Mega Luke - which still breaks most teams. The competition is rising while it is falling. Mega Kanghaskhan IMO is not as good as Mewtwo, Landorus-Incarnate or even Kyurem-White, which don't have the same drastic opportunity cost that Mega Kanghaskhan does (They do have opportunity costs but they're not as big), or Iceceus, Steelceus, or Dragonceus, which, while having about as big an opportunity cost, can actually provide huge roles for their teams, with Dragonceus giving an alternative to Waterceus without the 4MSS and Iceceus being able to beat many teams that don't have a Fighting type given Defog support.
 
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