Resource SM LC Viability Rankings v2

[rssp1]

It doesn't mean Chespin's a bad mon, but if there's a Pokemon that does the job better, you should probably be using that Pokemon instead (and the other Pokemon, Chespin in this case, should be unranked). If you think Remoraid and Dewpider are worse / not as viable, you should probably be advocating for them to move down rather than for Chespin to go up.
I think one of the problems here is that you're looking at Chespin in a vacuum, because you're dismissing or not including how Ferroseed is better than it in almost every way, something that is really important when it comes to the VR (imo). If a Pokemon is better in every way than the one you're advocating for, the Pokemon you are advocating for should not have a place on the rankings. What i'm saying is that the only thing Chespin has going for it is the active recovery (and I guess checking 1-2 things more, which is pretty irrelevant since it does not check a large number of things that Ferro does). Is that enough to bring it up to C-? I don't know, maybe, but it definitely means that Chespin should not be going up any more.

 

[Scottie]

It doesn't mean Chespin's a bad mon, but if there's a Pokemon that does the job better, you should probably be using that Pokemon instead (and the other Pokemon, Chespin in this case, should be unranked). If you think Remoraid and Dewpider are worse / not as viable, you should probably be advocating for them to move down rather than for Chespin to go up.
I think one of the problems here is that you're looking at Chespin in a vacuum, because you're dismissing or not including how Ferroseed is better than it in almost every way, something that is really important when it comes to the VR (imo). If a Pokemon is better in every way than the one you're advocating for, the Pokemon you are advocating for should not have a place on the rankings. What i'm saying is that the only thing Chespin has going for it is the active recovery (and I guess checking 1-2 things more, which is pretty irrelevant since it does not check a large number of things that Ferro does). Is that enough to bring it up to C-? I don't know, maybe, but it definitely means that Chespin should not be going up any more.

Okay 9/10 times people are going to opt for Ferroseed and that's fine. But I think you're making it out as if the mon is useless, you need to also look at the things it has against Ferroseed, stuff that Chespin can do but ferro cant. Like I said Chespin might be a more team specific mon but in this case it worked wonders for me. I was able to patch up all the holes I could think of using Chespin. Adding Ferrossed would of not done the same thing. I think everyone can agree that Ferroseed is the overall better mon but it's not like it does everything that Chespin does, they both play similar roles but they have also got something going for them which the other cannot achieve.

 

[infamy]

Team-specific Pokemon and Pokemon that only work well in very particular matchups should be in the C ranks. Placement in viability rankings has a lot to do with how the Pokemon perform generally in the metagame and little to do with very specific matchups. That's why you'll see Pokemon in the lower ranks being used in tournaments but not on ladder, because most of the time they have a specific role against the opponent's play- and/or team-style. On ladder teams need to have good matchups against everything because you're not playing just one or two games with it, you're playing dozens. Chespin to C-.

 

[Scottie]

The mon may be classified as team specific but that doesnt reflect on how it performs. Go out and explore how effective this mon is in the tier. I would use it over and over again and will actually ladder to no1 with it to show that its not a matchup based mon or a "1 game wonder" mon.

would of

 

[infamy]

Are you trying to miss the point? Plenty of lower-ranked Pokemon have performed well plenty of times. I'm not saying Chespin doesn't work well on your team. But lower-ranked Pokemon perform well in very specific circumstances and on specific teams. That's why they are lower in the rankings. More viable Pokemon perform well in a variety of circumstances. Just because a Pokemon is good on a specific team or in a specific matchup does not mean it is good in general. Viability rankings reflect the general viability of a Pokemon in the metagame and, generally speaking, Chespin is not very viable.

 

[Scottie]

Are you trying to miss the point? Plenty of lower-ranked Pokemon have performed well plenty of times. I'm not saying Chespin doesn't work well on your team. But lower-ranked Pokemon perform well in very specific circumstances and on specific teams. That's why they are lower in the rankings. More viable Pokemon perform well in a variety of circumstances. Just because a Pokemon is good on a specific team or in a specific matchup does not mean it is good in general. Viability rankings reflect the general viability of a Pokemon in the metagame and, generally speaking, Chespin is not very viable.

Chespin deserves to be a more common teambuilding tool. I would use it in a lot of different teams actually. What dont you get? The mon is unranked so you immediately assume that its a More situational mon. Im trying to prove here that this mon can be consistent and do its job game to game to game. If the mon wasnt viable, I wouldnt use it. But it absolutely is.

I may have stated that the mon is team specific but christ it atleast deserves more light than it is getting at the moment.

 

[dcae]

its time to move pass the chespin topic onto something more relevant. im talking about diglett. I brought this up earlier in discord and i think its important to acknowledge how good it is atm. Snake draft has shined a spotlight on diglett, with it having a usage rate of 33% and being featured in all but 7 games total in snake so far. during phase 2, diglett had a 63% winrate, indicating its effectiveness, and most notably heysup successfully used two teams that many would agree were wack as fuck to obtain wins against all odds mostly due to well worked diglett sets. the most common one in high level play is z eq dig and its dumb how good this is, because it can trap things that used to be untrappable easily:

236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

however diglett is most commonly paired with knock + uturn mons like vulla and foo so realistically in a real game situation, these calcs tend to be more indicative of how things go:

236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Foongus: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

essentially a bit of chip damage and some of the bulkiest mons in the tier die easily and there's really no counterplay to this. the elite way dig traps and dispatches lcs most popular walls after some chip dmg is unmatched in any tier, because even dugtrio wasnt able to trap and kill ferrothorns lol. diglett's usage is rising and it singlehandedly enables teams that lack counterplay to a number of things to simply blanket check them by adding a z dig to dispatch them and this sheer utility significantly outweighs the drawback that diglett has defensively. for example observe this replay of shrug vs heysup in which a diglett is able to trap bj ferro at 80% health, enabling spritzee to later become a huge nuisance to shrug's team while also limiting shrugs ability to take hits for his less bulky mons. another example is this replay of zorodark vs dundies in which digletts mere presence and subsequent lead matchup resulted in dundies immediately being put in a terrible position, and is still able to come in and dispatch a weakened threat in snivy.

aside from the times in which diglett actually does its job really well as a z dig trapper, the fact that diglett exists on the opponents team can instantly invalidate certain mons or cause one to play very differently and consequently potentially detrimentally to avoid getting key pieces trapped and killed. aside from a z dig set, dig has versatility with scarf, evio, sash, and lo sets which can all be devastating depending on team composition. aside from just trapping bulky mons and the like, beat up allows dig to be the best abra revenge killer in the tier, pursuit allows it to even trap gastly, memento is a very good tool as team support, and final gambit can take out even flying mons.

the versatility and unmatched utility of diglett is emphasized to a great extent in a meta where ground resists are rare and most mons can be trapped from full health at any time with a simple uturn/volt switch/double or after a kill and the fact that it is the 3rd most used mon in snake backs up the assertion that it is one of the absolute best mons in the tier.

i nominate diglett to s rank.

 

[Scottie]

Sorry to switch the topic again but this will be the last thing I say about Chespin, I think it's worth showing you this so yeah.

Today on the ladder I played a couple games with Chespin and a few yesterday. I have
some replays that show how dominant Chespin was in these games, being the sole purpose to these victories. Bare in mind that these were at the top of the ladder and I am familiar with who my opponents were. Barring 1.

I Played about five games and in majority of those games, Chespin was the standout mon. Here are some replays showcasing Chespin:

file:///D:/Downloads/Google%20Chrome%20Downloads/Gen7LC-2017-10-21-bamboosvvord-stimpakz.html (copy paste in new tab to view replay)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-648471858 vs fusionfuss (Played a huge roll in this game, setting the spikes and completely walled the opposing Mareanie + Foongus. Towards the end before the opp forfeit, I seed bombed expecting my opp to make a desperation play going into wingull to try regain momentum but I caught it and at that point the game was set and stone).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-648055625 vs idk (Didn't do too much but it got the key spikes up for Vullaby and Mienfoo late game which guaranteed any possible rolls and also put Shellder in jet range after hjk damage from Mienfoo).

In the game vs bamboo, Chespin achieved everything I had mentioned what you should be using this mon for. It was able to make great use of it's ability, it was able to set 2 layers, and it was able to switch directly into the opposing Onix taking like 14% and threatening it out with a seed bomb preventing rocks on my side, which ultimately lead to a Vulllaby sweep. Fantastic.

It pretty much implemented the same stuff in the other games and PROVED why this mon outright deserves a rise. Chespin was able to produce the goods in these games and actually showing some consistency for an unranked mon which is great.

Chespin and Vullaby have been working wonders for me, and there is no coincidence here that Chespin does it's job setting the spikes and Vullaby cleans late game. This has been a recurring theme for me using this team. Another thing I have noticed is that the mon is able to fundamentally stay in the game for the whole duration, all of my wins with the team have almost resulted in 0 Chespin K/O's to my knowledge. Whether its a coincidence or not, it's worth pointing out.

I've said what I had to say about this mon, there is no more I can say at this point.

#ChespinForB-.

 

[Shrug]

ok, vr council gonna talk this out, chespin discussion is over. no more talkign bout it

 

[freezai]

 

[Merritt]

So bringing the discussion we had in the discord over here, can we split S rank into at least two subranks? Preferably High S and Low S, but could be an S- despite the various jokes about an S- rank.

Honestly if Diglett moves up (it really should seriously) S rank is going to feel very crowded, and I think it'd be a more accurate picture on the state of the meta if we had two S tiers, one for the gods of our meta and one for those who aren't quite godly but are definitely better than everything in A+ and below.

From discussion in the LC discord I think the best split would probably be:

High S: Vullaby, Mienfoo, Diglett

Low S: Abra, Staryu, Timburr

Thanks.

 

[twinkay]

I agree wholeheartedly with Merritt on the splitting of the S rank. Diglett probably should move up considering how influential it is on the metagame, but nothing from S rank really should move down... they all define the metagame in their own way. However, six is way too large of a number to fit into one S-rank, so I think splitting it up is the way to go. I'm going to call them S+ / S- for the sake of consistency with other ranks.

But I think they should be organized more like this:
S+: Abra, Mienfoo, Vullaby
S-: Diglett, Staryu, Timburr

I think Abra is probably the major centralizing Pokemon in the meta right now. It's extremely potent and basically makes Webs such a dominating play style currently. I agree that Mienfoo and Vullaby should stay, probably the most consistent two Pokemon in the tier right now.

The reason I think Diglett should be ranked lower as the things I was argued against when I first supported the Diglett rise WAY back in the first VR thread still hold up, basically Diglett can only do work when checks are prominent and can't really get in on the pokes it's supposed to KO without sacking something in the process. Still definitely a meta defining threat though.

That's just my two cents, who knows, it's up for the council to decide.

 

[infamy]

nominating dewpider to chespin rank c+

dewpider is a pretty cool pokemon. firstly its name is great pun material. secondly its got a really neat ability called water bubble that makes its water type attacks do 2x damage and gives it an immunity to burn. thats pretty wild if you ask me. it basically negates resistances and it stacks with stab. its also 1 ft tall and like 9 lbs which means its literally a pocket monster if youre wearing overalls or some other outfit of the american bumpkin lumpenproletariat. but you couldnt really put it in your pocket cause its head is a bubble made of water and that would probably pop and it would die and your pants of capitalist oppression would be ruined.

dewpider also has a very useful typing that gives it a lot of valuable resistances and very good defenses. it has a subpar attack stat but that doesnt really matter because you have stab and water bubble and you shouldnt be clicking anything but liquidation that often. it also has access to leech life which is actually pretty good this gen and spider web which is the tech. you can spider web a switchin like croagunk that wouldnt be taking much or anything from liquidation and then get a nice safe switch out into your check.

dewpider is an effective check to several metagame threats like staryu, non lo abra, timburr, and willohex gastly. here are a few calculations.

116 SpA Staryu Thunderbolt vs. 52 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Dewpider: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
196+ Atk Dewpider Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)

200 SpA Life Orb Staryu Psychic vs. 52 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Dewpider: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
196+ Atk Dewpider Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staryu: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 52 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Dewpider: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
196+ Atk Water Bubble Dewpider Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 32-38 (168.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 38)

196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 52 HP / 20 Def Eviolite Dewpider: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
196+ Atk Water Bubble Dewpider Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)

116 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 52 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Dewpider: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
196+ Atk Water Bubble Dewpider Liquidation vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Gastly: 26-32 (130 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32)

obviously dewpider isnt top tier but its a pretty neat check to some specific threats. checks and counters to dewpider include vullaby, croagunk, foongus, ferroseed, snivy, doduo, and chinchou. pokemon like birds that can ko or threaten these checks are good partners for dewpider. dewpider can work well as part of a waterspam core with a pokemon like corphish or carvanha. it also appreciates hazard control. other good partners are onix, which checks birds and appreciates removal of staryu and timburr, and fire types, which beat many dewpider checks and benefit from it checking staryu.

here is the dewpider i have been using:

Dewpider @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Bubble
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 196 Atk / 20 Def / 180 SpD / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Spider Web
- Leech Life
- Lunge / Sleep Talk

and here are a couple dewpider teams i have built. they are not super good and both have their weaknesses but i find them pretty fun to use. have a pleasant day. :)

 

[Camden]

We finally got around to this thing...

So the first thing we did was split up S rank because we added another S rank mon and decided 6 Pokemon in s tier was too much, especially when some in S stand above the others but the others in S are still better than those in A+.

We also went to an actual vote with this instead of just agreeing during conversation. So after listing the changes, I'll include a short explanation below for each change and say how strongly we felt about each change.

S Rank (Alphabetical order):

Hide

Diglett - Groundium Z allows it to trap and KO a wide range of targets while most of the time only needing a slight bit of damage. Knock Off support also lets it viably take out more defensive Pokemon. In addition, Diglett's versatility with item play outside of Z moves can allow it to trap any sort of threats.

Mienfoo - It's the same old song and dance. Nothing's changed about it, and it proves through various metagame shifts that it can maintain itself as one of the most versatile Pokemon around.

Vullaby - Generally regarded as the best Pokemon in Little Cup, and for damn good reason. Fantastic offensively, great defensively, can go physical, special, or mixed. It's just that great.

S- Rank

Hide

Abra - While still a great choice for any team, we didn't see it as being quite as dominant as the above three. It has versatility in the form of Life Orb vs Focus Sash, but Sash isn't quite as strong as it could be and Life Orb is very high risk outside of webs teams. With that in mind it packs enough power and coverage to be a huge threat against any team.

Staryu - It's a great support with Rapid Spin and can more than hold its own as an Offensive Life Orb attacker. It's really really good.

Timburr - Timburr struggles against some of the poisons and has a bit of an issue with pressure, but it still hits like a truck with Iron Fist or is one of the best set-up attackers with Guts + Bulk Up.

Now onto the rest of the changes:


Rises:

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B -> B+

B -> B+

B -> B+

C+ -> B-

C -> B-

UR -> C-

UR -> C-

Drops:

A+ -> A

A- -> B+

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

C- -> UR

Hide

Rejected noms:

Wimpod UR -> C-
Pikipek C+ -> B-
Clamperl C+ -> B-
Remoraid C- -> C
Cyndaquil UR -> C-
Pawniard A -> A-

Explanations:

Hide

Mudbray's been used a lot more as an offensive Pokemon but also as a BP recipient.
Spritzee is the best Vullaby answer regardless of set and the supposed momentum loss isn't as much of a factor as it used to be.
Wynaut and Trapinch are seeing their increased worth as trappers, whether as an alternative to Diglett or in conjunction with it. They are more than unique enough to provide their own value to a team.
Pumpkaboo-Super and Kabuto are cool support options for a team. Pumpkaboo is a great spinblocker and mixed defensive threat while Kabuto provides support in the form of Knock Off, SR, Spinning, Priority, and decent offensive typing. Kabuto also checks birds because Weak Armor Rock-type.
Salandit's typing allows for it to destroy common defensive core. It can use a Z-Move well or obtain extra power through Life Orb and/or Nasty Plot.
Chespin has a niche as a Spike-setting Ground resist that walls some Poison-types.
Exeggcute's niche is tanking hits, healing up with Oran Berry + Harvest, and putting anything slower than it to sleep. The Knock Off weakness isn't appreciated, but it's a Grass-type that resists Fighting and Ground.

Alolan-Grimer is still really good as an Abra/Gastly check and overall offensive Pokemon, but the Ground weakness and lack of speed allow it to be pressured easily.
Scraggy has a harder time trying to do its job with Spritzee being used more. It's still gonna sweep bad teams but most teams have multiple ways of threatening it.
Magnemite has been on a decline the entire generation, no longer being as reliable of a bird check and being overly reliant on its item.
Most teams pack at least a couple of answer to Zigzagoon. Common defensive cores can shut it down and it has a harder time setting up because some of its traditional support has become worse.
Nosepass sucks and offers nothing over other rock-types.

Wimpod sucks Pikipek sucks Clamperl is high risk Remoraid sucks Cyndaquil is absolute garbage and Pawniard is still good*

*will update this later maybe

Sorry if my explanations suck, but there you go. We'll do another update in a few weeks after USM has been around for a bit. I'll update the OP a bit later.

Also this is the VR council now:

Me
OP
Coconut
Shrug
Merritt
Zebraiken
Nineage

 

[Camden]

I'm just gonna go ahead and lock this since we won't be doing the next update until after Ultra Sun & Moon come out. I'll have a new thread available sometime after its release.