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Hola RU community! Following the final tier shift, we thought it'd be a good idea to start a new and fresh thread to discuss the final stretch of SS as the current generation.
The biggest highlight is us finally getting something out of the tier shifts in Tentacruel, who looks to be a very solid option in teambuilding for our metagame. It'd be cool to see what kind of sets and cores you can come up with, and share them with the community.
SCL is also currently ongoing, so feel free to discuss certain meta trends you have noticed as the games happen. Surely people can see Vileplume and Reuniclus have been on a big chunk of teams, but what else can you say about the teams showcased so far?
There's also a community survey coming soon, so be on the lookout for that
Overview
Sun is, in my opinion, the most underrated playstyle as of right now, found below even Gigalith on the Viability Rankings. Despite our clear lack of Chlorophyll users, as well as the continued dominance of bulky Water-types such as Milotic and now Tentacruel, I feel that Sun should be respected a lot more, and am writing this post with the hope of educating newer players about this playstyle. In this post, I plan to cover both some setters and some abusers, including Pokemon that look to be promising but aren't.
The setters
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
Viable as a result of its access to Prankster, Klefki is able to make due as a secondary Weather setter on most Sun teams. It's ability to setup Spikes can prove to be invaluable, as many teams completely forgo hazard control, and the ones that do run hazard control are more often then not running one of Dhelmise or Tsareena, both of which are weak to the Fire-type moves that Sun teams are known for firing off.
Ninetales @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam
- Rest / Nasty Plot
By far the best Sun setter, Ninetales is able to hit many opponents with its coverage attacks. Rest is a unique tech that allows Ninetales to easily recover HP, though it does come at the cost of rendering Ninetales immobile for the rest of the game. Against most teams, Ninetales will only have one opportunity to use Rest throighout the battle, but nevertheless I believe that it is a solid option as the fourth moveslot because it gives it some longevity, which is key to keeping control of the weather.
Whimsicott @ Heat Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 116 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Stun Spore / Knock Off
- U-turn
- Moonblast
A more niche Sun setter, Whimsicott is able to differentiate itself from Klefki by acting as a switchin to Flygon's Earthquake. The given EV spread prevents Choice Band Flygon from 2HKOing with Stone Edge, ensuring that Whimsicott can counter it. The abusers
Despite being walled by most Fire-types, I believe Articuno to be a niche sun sweeper. As seen in this replay from RUgged Mountain, it can abuse the fact that Flygon likes to choice-lock into Earthquake against Sun teams to get in and threaten it out. It also is able to deal significant damage to Registeel, as well as 1v1 Crobat. It also beats most of our Water-types, with only Milotic and Suicune able to 1v1 it.
One of the most underrated Sun abusers, Espeon doubles as both a means of hazard control and a Sun wallbreaker. The fact that most people don't think it gets Weather Ball, coupled with the fact that the rest of its moves are naturally walled by Steel-types can lead to opponents switching in Pokémon such as Registeel and Bronzong only for them to get 2HKO'd.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Growth
- Solar Blade
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
I haven't tried Shiftry yet, but a good offensive typing and access to both Growth and Solar Blade makes Shiftry an excellent pick on most Sun teams. Chlorophyll allows Shiftry to provide speed control under Sun, which can be invaluable given how prone Sun teams would otherwise be to getting swept by Pokémon such as Choice Scarf Flygon.
Overview
Sun is, in my opinion, the most underrated playstyle as of right now, found below even Gigalith on the Viability Rankings. Despite our clear lack of Chlorophyll users, as well as the continued dominance of bulky Water-types such as Milotic and now Tentacruel, I feel that Sun should be respected a lot more, and am writing this post with the hope of educating newer players about this playstyle. In this post, I plan to cover both some setters and some abusers, including Pokemon that look to be promising but aren't.
The setters
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
Viable as a result of its access to Prankster, Klefki is able to make due as a secondary Weather setter on most Sun teams. It's ability to setup Spikes can prove to be invaluable, as many teams completely forgo hazard control, and the ones that do run hazard control are more often then not running one of Dhelmise or Tsareena, both of which are weak to the Fire-type moves that Sun teams are known for firing off.
Ninetales @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam
- Rest / Nasty Plot
By far the best Sun setter, Ninetales is able to hit many opponents with its coverage attacks. Rest is a unique tech that allows Ninetales to easily recover HP, though it does come at the cost of rendering Ninetales immobile for the rest of the game. Against most teams, Ninetales will only have one opportunity to use Rest throighout the battle, but nevertheless I believe that it is a solid option as the fourth moveslot because it gives it some longevity, which is key to keeping control of the weather.
Whimsicott @ Heat Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 116 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Stun Spore / Knock Off
- U-turn
- Moonblast
A more niche Sun setter, Whimsicott is able to differentiate itself from Klefki by acting as a switchin to Flygon's Earthquake. The given EV spread prevents Choice Band Flygon from 2HKOing with Stone Edge, ensuring that Whimsicott can counter it. The abusers
Despite being walled by most Fire-types, I believe Articuno to be a niche sun sweeper. As seen in this replay from RUgged Mountain, it can abuse the fact that Flygon likes to choice-lock into Earthquake against Sun teams to get in and threaten it out. It also is able to deal significant damage to Registeel, as well as 1v1 Crobat. It also beats most of our Water-types, with only Milotic and Suicune able to 1v1 it.
One of the most underrated Sun abusers, Espeon doubles as both a means of hazard control and a Sun wallbreaker. The fact that most people don't think it gets Weather Ball, coupled with the fact that the rest of its moves are naturally walled by Steel-types can lead to opponents switching in Pokémon such as Registeel and Bronzong only for them to get 2HKO'd.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Growth
- Solar Blade
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
I haven't tried Shiftry yet, but a good offensive typing and access to both Growth and Solar Blade makes Shiftry an excellent pick on most Sun teams. Chlorophyll allows Shiftry to provide speed control under Sun, which can be invaluable given how prone Sun teams would otherwise be to getting swept by Pokémon such as Choice Scarf Flygon.
Sorry I didn't get to this sooner! Ivysaur is probably usable, but I chose not to include it in my post because of my lack of experience with it, as well as the fact that I believe it to be a little worse than Shiftry in terms of viability.
another post from me, this time regarding the recent metagame survey. ill conclude with some thoughts about tentacruel.
Smogon name* C0nfiden1 0yster
i expect a diverse pool of answers for this first question. I simply went with my username tho there will be people who answer with their respective usernames.
How enjoyable do you find the current metagame?* 8/10
meta is diverse n stuff so its fun. A few annoying mons but they're w/e with good counterplay. Lots of balance but i wouldn't rly call it stally. some great games come out of this meta too (see ajna vs mac3). wish i had more to say
How competitive do you find the current metagame?* 7/10
There are a few haxy elements of RU, the one people will point to the most being togekiss as it has the chance to beat any pokemon slower than it, tho this doesn't rly effect top play I find. U rarely see games being decided by the 60% lotto machine. Even if games were decided by air slash more commonly, then i'd still argue togekiss has a healthy presence since it still encourages offensive play. I'd argue a more uncompetitive aspect of RU is actually Reuniclus' Focus Blast as this decides more games as a +6 reun can't beat a dark type without hitting the dumb move. This is the most recent example and then focus blast can do other things like drop special defense which impacted an RULT playoff game of Luna's. And lastly, the tier has tons of mu fishes and sometimes games are simply won off of preview, which is obviously not a good thing. I think there is one major culprit of this but I'll mention later. Otherwise, there are no 'broken' pokemon and no pokemon that have none/extremely obscure counterplay which makes RU overall quite competitive.
What are your thoughts on Reuniclus in the current metagame?* 1/5
Reuniclus is perfectly fine and there should be no tiering action for this pokemon. During the Reuniclus suspect, Calm Mind sets were the doubt and its fair to say CM sets are not a broken presence at all. CM Reun is incredibly potent but there is viable counterplay and arguably that kind of counterplay is healthy. A common way to beat CM Reun is to use breakers like Pangoro and Dhelmise, and although these breakers aren't foolproof as colbur and itemless reun hurt their breaking respectively, they still put pressure on Reun and this still do not allow reun to set up. Haze Milotic is another common answer to Reuniclus and although it itself will not overcome the Reun, it will stop the threat and Milotic can easily pivot into something that can 2hko reun. Calm Mind sets also struggle to set up against offense and good offensive pressure, which is the main way Calm Mind Reun is overcome. It is important to remember that Reuniclus is not a great phys def wall against offense due to its lack of resists and weakness to u-turn and knock meaning if Reun isn't setting up, it could feel quite useless. Even something like Lucario can potentially break past a Reuniclus. For those reasons I don't think CM Reun is suspect worthy at all, but I think this question might be asking about another Reun set.
With people finally moving away from CM and AV Reun, people have discovered Knock Toxic Reun, which, has caused some issues as those who rely on Milotic to switch into Reun are punished, or along with other passive ways of beating Reun. This Psychic/Night Shade, Knock Off, Toxic, Recover Reuniclus set has been a terror in SCL so far as it makes guaranteed progress whenever it is in and Reuniclus' natural bulk makes it very difficult to overcome. Offensive pressure isn't always great either as Reuniclus can run a Rocky Helmet, allowing it to stay extremely passive as every U-turn u make is progress for the oppenent. Despite this set being incredible at the moment, I still would never consider it banworthy though. The breakers that beat CM Reuniclus still beat this phys def Reuniclus and at the moment, special breakers like Chandelure, Nidoqueen, and Xurkitree, are not seeing the most usage which can change as these are good pokemon, they are just not exactly in favor. When the RU metagame adapts to the Reun set as it is winning games by itself, I have a feeling we might start to see these special breakers. The main point is, RU has the viable tools to overcome knock tox reun and any Reun set, so I don't see why Reuniclus should receive any tiering action
What are your thoughts on Togekiss in the current metagame?* 1/5
Togekiss is not worthy of a suspect at all either. RU has overcome nasty plot sets for a year now and I don't think any significant changes have occurred for Nasty plot sets to become broken. The only real change to Togekiss over the past year is mainly the rise of Heal bell, which simply means you can not rely on toxic to beat togekiss anymore. Registeel is still a very good slow answer to Togekiss, Raikou has rentered the picture as a viable pokemon and even something like DD roost flygon can beat toge, although unreliably. There are many other ways a team can overcome and pressure a togekiss so it is not broken on that front i believe. Although explained prior, I do not find Togekiss uncompetitve as with a good team and good play, games should not come down to the air slash lotto. Proper checks, like the aforementioned registeel, do not fall victim to air slash as much as some might want you to believe. Improper togekiss checks like a Rhyperior will fall victim as rhyperior is NOT a good togekiss check due to air slash doing a fair amount and stone edge miss chance. Togekiss can also run scarf tho this has been in decline as the metagame adapted. Cleric sets with wish are also not suspect/ban worthy either. The metagame has overcome togekiss before and will continue to do so.
What are your thoughts on offence in the current metagame?* 1/5
Weird question tbh. Offense is good and quite healthy for the current metagame. Offense is not overbearing as RU has the defensive tools to beat offense. I'd argue offense is slightly out of favor given Vileplume's rise and a high amount of revenge sweepers like Tsareena and Mimikyu. This question might refer to the large amounts of gimmicky teams but I don't think that is an issue as they tend to be mu fishy. Perhaps this question is regarding those mu fishes which is fair, but I don't think tiering action is the step to remove that element.
Following the previous question, what is the main culprit for you, if there is one? Polteagiest
Definitely not the main or even a common culprit but this pokemon is pure mu fish. It adds so little to the metagame. If oppo doesn't have a dark or a lax, you win... Polteagiest can even beat some of those dark types with strength sap shenanigans. Registeel can take a +2 shadow ball very well and do big damage with heavy slam which doesn't make poltea as bad, but that doesn't change that this pokemon is pure mu fish and dumb. If u disregard it in the builder, it can just show up and potentially 6-0 from t1. and its not like the pokemon is common enough for people to be account for it in the builder. It wouldn't make much sense to suspect or even ban the tea cup but it is certainly very unhealthy and uneeded.
SM RU: What should be done with Talonflame?* Just unban
Shit sucked in wcop, no reason not to unban
Anything we missed in the options? N
Thoughts on Floss Spurs fan so kinda stinky
As this is the end of the year, any thoughts on this recent circuit? What changes should be made if you want to see some?
Not rly circuit but some more casual tours like rugged mountain could be fun. maybe a trios/ghosting format
Tentacruel has very unique traits that make it stand out amongst the other bulky water types of the tier. It has the highest speed stat of any viable water type outside of starmie, has rapid spin, has knock off, has great special defense and mediocre phys def, is immune to toxic and resists fighting, but is prone to knock as it has no recovery. It also has a ground and psychic weakness. With these traits tenta becomes really awkward as it isn't going to seamlessly fit into teams like a Milotic or a Golisopod would. As a spinner it is fine, but is a less conveinent option to a Starmie or a Dhelmise due to lack of longevity. When a starmie or a dhelmise spins, it has a recovery move to recover the hp lost from maybe taking a hit that turn. Tentacruel lacks this making it very bad at spinning in the long term, unless u just never use it or pair with wish. As a knock off user it is quite good, but there is competition from Seismitoad and Golisopod. It is a bulky water that beats togekiss though which is huge and it can threaten celebi, especcially slower varients.
For sets I think it should probably run Scald / Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Rapid Spin. Toxic or protect could be used over sludge. I think Max speed max hp is the way to go ev wise as outspeeding mowtom and lucario is big. You could also run 252/0-/40/0/0/212+ to survive +2 Luca E-Speed after rocks and still keep a good speed tier. I think the idea of an offensive set is quite poor as it has a low base special attack and the stab combo doesn't hit things great. Trapper stuff with whirlpool might be interesting interesting but i've never tested it. SD is probably bad but it might be worth testing.
For teamates it seems that Flygon and Bronzong are the most popular as they mitigate Tenta's ground and psychic weakness. Flygon in particular switches well into Incin which can hurt tenta by knocking its only mean of recovery. I have some teams to share for those who want to test tenta out for themselves: https://pokepast.es/755a6c5a1e3823ff Specs Chande by ywt https://pokepast.es/5731b124083d0786 Scale Shot Flygon by Floss (i filled in evs and missing moves, celebi might be scarf with hwish) https://pokepast.es/5b4f6a08b8f1487d Growth Plume by me
Thats all for now, hope u enjoyed reading. Also if u hv any tenta teams or thoughts on tenta feel free to share
Took a few months off to, you know, actually do my job reliably and stuff, but recently came back after watching some SCL matches. Laddered back up to >1500 on an alt (using the latest spread change to Bulky DD because we are in a committed relationship) and have a few thoughts.
First off, the RU ladder is as weird as it ever was. A shocking amount of webs/weather/TR HO relative to their viability because they're fun I guess, but hard to get a feel for the "actual" tier when most of the top players aren't in ladder (at least not when I am). I'm sure it's not true, but I feel like I see Reuni and Toge maybe one out of every 10 matches tops. I honestly don't think I've seen a single Tsareena, Heliolisk, Guzzlord, or Vileplume in the couple of weeks I've been back messing around. Maybe I just need to Be the Change?
In any case, I'm running without any sort of removal at the moment, and it's surprising how viable it is. Honestly, I can't help wondering if a boots meta makes Spikes better. Not strictly better than Rocks, per se, just relatively better than they would be without Boots. Anything that hates rocks runs boots. Anything else just kinda deals with the chip with some combo of SR resistance, bulk.+ lefties, recovery, and wish support (and then there's Flygon the GOAT who just shrugs at this whole "hazards" concept). Spikes rack up that chip faster once stacked and annoy everybody equally, and in more balance-y/BO matches where they're useful, it's pretty easy to find opportunities to keep a layer or two up.
I also want to take a second to pump up LO Nasty Plot Celebi.
Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Earth Power
LO turns a lot of would-be rolls into guaranteed 2HKOs and a lot of would-be 2HKOs into rolls (and even a couple would-be 2HKOs into guaranteed 1HKOs).
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 385-455 (102.9 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 296-350 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
+2 252 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 283-335 (100.7 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Metagross: 216-255 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Metagross: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Milotic: 168-200 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 335-398 (111.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Nidoqueen: 354-421 (110.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Nidoqueen: 272-324 (84.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 307-361 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
vs
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The LO + Hazards chip adds up, but you're also taking fewer hits, and, most notably, +2 LO Giga Drain is an *amazing* neutral play. Even if your opponent switches to a grass resist, you'll likely out-recover your LO chip, but my favorite case study is against Umbreon
Against standard NP sets, an un-chipped Umbreon can, generally, come in safely against a Celebi and either win the 1v1 or force Celebi out with aggressive Foul Play pressure, even if Celebi NPs on the switch. Against LO NP Celebi:
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 239-282 (60.6 - 71.5%) (35.1 - 41.3% recovered)
Celebi eats the first Foul Play (or takes advantage of a Wish on a predicted switch), boosts to +4, and clicks Giga Drain, bringing back more than enough life to survive the followup Foul Play and forcing a switch-or-die situation (with the +4 Giga Drain against whatever comes in giving you a boost to keep fighting).
It's not as reliable throughout the match as a boots + recovery set, but I've got multiple replays saved where Celebi 6-0's from MU, depending on the lead:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1683082692
I should have clicked NP again when I saw Klefki was spikes and not screens, as I could have still been susceptible to Togekiss hax. Also, this opposing team was weird and I have no idea how it was meant to play if it hadn't been immediately invalidated. But RU ladder is gonna RU ladder.
Other than that, I'm still just out here running Specially Defensive ID/BP (now with TWave!) and 204 Spe and watching them do work. Offensive Incin is pretty boss, too. Tier is fun, but I can't say how weird ladder is enough times to get the point across.
I have tried a bit to make Tentacruel work, but every team I have made with it I have either found myself thinking that Starmie would be better, as recover makes up for the missing bulk or just splitting the bulky water+spinner role into Milotic and Tsareena or Dhelmise. I can only see it being useful on some decently offensive spikes teams that want a bulky water with more immediate utility than Milotic or Starmie as well as a spinner with knock off to get rid of boots and wants Roserade as a spiker over a grass type spinner. Maybe someone can make a bulky rain team that uses rain dish tentacruel to middling success. Has anyone found a good niche for Tentacruel?
What can we infer? Flygon continues to see the most usage, being used on nearly half of all teams and having a positive win rate to boot. Despite seeing low usage, Rhyperior, Sigilyph, and Mimikyu all popped off during the second week having a win rate of 75%, 75%, and 63%, respectively. Stakataka also popped off, with a win rate of 100% across 5 games. Webs sucks don't use it Dhelmise was only seen twice this week, and despite having a win rate of 100% I can't help wondering if this is the beginning of the end of its reign as a popular spinner. Cementing itself as the most common lead, Crobat continues to be a tier mainstay. Froslass Hyper Offence was used a decent bit this week, making it the second most common lead.
This is my first time doing anything usage-stats related so any feedback would be extremely helpful for next time!
RU CUP Round 3 Usage Stats and Analysis This only has data from the first 9 series on the thread because I might not be around later to do them and I wanted to get this out ASAP. Usage
What can we infer? Despite seeing slightly more usage, Flygon's win rate fell off a cliff from last week, going from 57.14% to only 37.50%. This means that more people are preparing for Flygon by using Pokémon such as Sneasel and Omastar. Interestingly, one of Flygon's best answers in Bronzong saw less usage than it did last week, meaning people are resorting to other Pokémon to defeat Flygon. On another note, Flygon also took home the most used lead. Crobat is being used less, but its win rate was positive. As said above, it's also no longer the most common lead. Celebi and Registeel were both seen 8 (25%) times, but both pulled off a win rate of 75%. Golisopod's usage skyrocketed this week, with it going from 19.44% last week to 31.25% this week. We saw another Froslass this week. However, it lost. Tsareena was seen several times this week, but it only had a win rate of 33.33%. Dhelmise was seen once and maintains its 100% win rate.