Other Metagames report rumors 4 bein toxic pls (Pre-Primal Groudon Ban Balanced Hackmons)

Foreword

"Rumors, why are you posting a pre-Primaldon Ban team in 2018! Primaldon has been banned since before USUM! You're slow and late and blah blah blah!"

Well, I meant to post it sooner, but first I wanted to do my other RMT you see down in my signature and then wait a bit before doing another. Then there was a tournament where I didn't want to publicly share teams because, you know, potential counter-teaming. And then holidays. Besides, considering how long this team took to make, it's probably fitting the RMT took forever too.

Anyway, sometime back in the X/Y generation, I had a crazy pipe dream idea for "Stallfense." Or the idea of "stalling with offense." If that makes no sense then you'd be correct in calling me out on that. This is not that team, but it is the result of trying to figure out the impossible concept. Basically, it started with looking over Pokemon and trying to figure out how I'd do it. I settled for a combination of Toxic Spikes and Hail with the theory of abusing moves like Venoshock and Blizzard combined with residual damage to wear a team down.

Sadly, X/Y offered little to make it work. ORAS came along and we got some new toys to play with in the form of new Megas and Primals. So, I got to work. I sat down on the drawing board and ending up popping out a completely different team centered around Aerilate Ho-Oh that was moderately successful, but nothing to really brag about or use in high level play. It was also not what I wanted, so with that experience in mind to keep myself from being led astray, I went back to the drawing board and hit several walls that caused me to fail to even get six Pokemon picked out for this concept.

ORAS passed and S/M came along. And finally, finally I saw the tool I was looking for to make this work: Merciless. If you're unaware, Merciless is an ability that causes the user to automatically inflict critical hits on poisoned opponents. With it, I set to work again. Very quickly, I realized that doing both Hail and Toxic was a bit too complicated to work with. Considering the best Blizzard user, Kyurem-W, was in a very bad spot without Refrigerate and Desolate Land Primal Groudon was far too common and disruptive to do anything less than a hard dedication to Snow Warning, there we just far too many moving parts to get something both coherent and effective. So, I focused on the poison. And the result was a toxic stally team with some added punch. And wow, did this team surprise me.

It's still not stallfence. That'll probably continue to be an impossibility. One I'll continue to strive for to see where that road takes me, but still likely an impossibility.



Team Building




The first obvious pick for a Merciless abuser was Mega-Gengar, with STABs on both Hex and Venoshock. This is where I started back in ORAS and had been kinda an obligatory inclusion ever since.



Since the team was meant to be more defensive leaned in nature, picking a good partner to catch Gengar's checks and counters was paramount. Yveltal was by far the most obvious choice as it resists or is immune to almost all of Gengar's weaknesses (most notably barring Thousand Arrows). Meanwhile, Gengar resisted Fairy which, while I usually didn't want Gengar to take attacks aimed at Yveltal, was a nice synergy nonetheless.



As a defensive partner, Solgaleo has amazing syngery with Yveltal as they cover almost all of each other's weaknesses, Fire and Electric being the notable two exceptions, and share zero weaknesses. There's very few balanced and defensive teams that can go wrong with a Yveltal/Solgaleo core, hence including it was a bit of a no brainer.



Zygarde-Complete covers the aforementioned Electric and Fire hole and, while it doesn't resist Thousand Arrows, it's bulky enough to stare down even powerful Primal Groudons. Besides, the most viable dual-STAB P.Don resist, with Thousand Arrows being accounted for, is stuff like Flash Fire Shaymin which... isn't exactly viable. Either way, Zygarde completed the defensive core, leaving me with no real holes.



With most types covered, Fur Coat Chansey just makes for a good all-around check to many attackers. It fits neatly into nearly any team and can even bluff an Imposter set before it shows on the field, which is great for ensuring opponents don't try to lead with their set-up win condition. ...or at least the competent ones. The low ladder folk will do it anyway.



Finding a second attacker was... hard. I sorted through a few options looking to abuse moves like Hex. Eventually, I came to P.Don, stared at it for a good few moments, and realized "Why did I not realize this sooner?" Primal Groudon was so powerful and versatile it really should have been a first pick on the team rather than the last. But better late than never, no? Primal Don really rounded the team out, presenting a terrifying physical threat to the enemy team, and really got things rolling.



After seeing Lance (yes, THAT Lance) used a defensive Arceus of some sort in a tournament battle, I came back to this team and took a look at things. I wasn't 100% sure of his set since the battle didn't reveal it all, but I had some ideas of what it was doing and it gave me a idea to experiment. Chansey was very useful, but a little more passive than I liked. So, I switched it with Arceus and made an approximation of the set I saw using guesswork and then tweaking to suit my own team's needs. Arceus as a mixed defensive Pokemon is... actually pretty good. Bulky enough to take some hits and strong enough to threaten offensive Pokemon. This was particularly important in dealing with set-up Pokemon, who my team wasn't answering too well if I couldn't get them good and toxic stalled otherwise.

Bit of useful trivia I discovered: Fur Coat Arceus is physically bulkier than Fur Coat Eviolite Chansey, several times more if the Eviolite is lost, and is free to run any item it pleases. The special defense drop is a bit noticeable in some cases though, as Chansey can survive Ytwo's Specs Psychic Terrain Psycho Boost, but Arceus cannot without an Assault Vest, some sort of defensive boost, or removing terrain or items.



Strategy

The goal of this team is pretty simple: get down at least one layer of Toxic Spikes, try to get the whole enemy team poisoned, and then proceed to wear them down and smash as necessary. If they bring a Poison Heal user with his own Toxic Orb? Perfect, less work for me. Just so long as I can spread as much Poison or Toxic status around, my team is golden.

The cool thing about this team is it doesn't have a dedicated win condition. The whole team is basically the win condition. Maybe that's a slight exaggeration since it is match-up and situation dependent, but there's still no "If I get Diancie going I win 90% of the time but if I lose it then I lose 90% of the time" situations. For example, I can poison shuffle stall with Yveltal, poison and wreck with Primaldon, wreck set-up spam teams with Arceus, and more.

The path to victory is a very flexible one, which is how I think a good ladder team should be. Tournaments? Yeah, you just need to win one to three battles where you have an idea of the match-up. But on ladder? One-win-con is dangerous, IMO, since if it gets countered by the enemy team, you face a serious uphill battle.

But basically, here: spread poison around and then stall or smash.



Team Breakdown

Things are in a different order here from the team building section. I'm starting with my defensive Pokemon first since they establish the backbone of the team.




Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off
- Baneful Bunker
- Spectral Thief​

The set's an oldie, but still a goodie. This is a slight modification of a Poison Heal Yveltal set Adrian Marin came up with back in the yonder days of X/Y. Most notably, I swapped out Sucker Punch for Spectral Thief as the usual targets, such as Shell Smash Mewtwo Y, are often priority immune these days. I also switched out King's Shield for Baneful Bunker, as the poison status is more beneficial to my team overall and it lets me block those pesky non-attacks.

Basically though, this set is a disruptive jerk. It strips items, spreads poison, and keeps the opponent from gaining a foothold with a combination of Spectral Thief and Circle Throw. For example, Regigigas might come in feeling all big and bad thinking it can set-up for free on Spectral Thief, but it won't be as happy when it gets forced out anyway and misses that turn's Poison Heal recovery to boot. The combination of Circle + Baneful also keeps Yveltal healthy as opponents that can hit it hard are usually forced out before they can hit Yveltal again.

Losing the Toxic Orb before activating it is a big problem for this set. Fortunately, if the opponent has Imposter, they're locked out of Baneful Bunker lest they give me healing. Of course, I am locked out too unless I want to poison them. But hey, I have Merciless users, they most likely do not.



Solgaleo @ Leftovers
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
- Strength Sap
- Gear Grind​

This is definitely a more team-dependent set and not something I'd recommend for general use, so copy it at your own risk. It works though! Mold Breaker Toxic Spikes ensures I can get a layer up in most situations, which is all I really need. Taunt is great, as most people except Slowgaleo, so it outspeeds most defensive Pokemon and prevents them from operating regardless of their ability, which usually leads to them just slow U-Turning out while I throw T.Spikes at them. ("Yeah, that slow U-Turn from your only Steel-type isn't so attractive now when I got T.Spikes down when you clicked the move, is it?") Strength Sap's iffiness also diminishes greatly when it can no longer be walled by Magic Bounce. Some targets still provide mediocre healing, but most give roughly half or more.

Gear Grind might be the head-scratcher here. "Why not Sunsteel Strike?" you may ask. Simple: I'm already Mold Breaker. Moldy Gear Grind has similar power, but also lets me do things like bypass Sash Smash Mega-Diancie or outright KO Sturdy Sash Shedinja. Solgaleo is not a sweeper nor a breaker though, so its mostly for chip damage and to hit specific targets such as those.

Basically, this is my main T. Spikes user. Throw a layer down, two if I can imagine it, Taunt any defensive/support Pokemon and Defog users, pick off particular targets, and heal while annoying some attackers. Just gotta watch out for the Contrary ones.




Zygarde-Complete @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer
- Wish
- Baneful Bunker​

Probably the set that's changed the most without changing Pokemon. Zygarde started life as a Corrosive user with Toxic and Leech Seed and, let me tell you, being able to poison Steel-types who thought they were safe was really good fun. The set was a fat, stally jerk and was pretty darn effective, but it was also seriously crippled by Magic Bounce users. I still think the set can be really good, but I'd need to make changes elsewhere to support it better.

After running numbers and realizing Imposter Primaldon couldn't easily break Zygarde even with Merciless active, I swapped to Poison Heal and changed by moves around a little. Wish and Baneful were staples, the former using Zygarde's fattiness to keep my team healthy and Baneful for similar reasons as Yveltal (and again locks Imposter out of Baneful if I lose my orb before activation). Core Enforcer gives more favorable match-ups all around, removing those pesky abilities such as Merciless from Imposter Primaldon or Poison Heal from, well, any non-Fairy PH user. And U-Turn, well, for a safer Wish pivot, really. A lot of other potentially viable options could go into that slot, but its what I opted for.

Not much to say on the set's plan though. It's a Poison Heal stalling wall using Poison and packs some extra Wish and slow pivot support.

...also, am I the only one who occasionally hears the instrumental version of the original Power Rangers theme song when Zygarde-Complete shows up?



Arceus @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Boomburst
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Baton Pass​

Choosing between Unaware and Fur Coat is... really non-trivial. Both had their perks, with Fur Coat letting Arceus better staredown Primal Groudon and some other physical attackers while Unaware handles set-up users/spam teams better. In the end, I opted for the latter since it provided features my team needed more. The idea is to simply steal boosts and either pass or shoot back as the situation demands.

Arceus may not have great offensive stats for BH, but Boomburst off of 120 Special Attack is enough to threaten most offensive Pokemon and more than enough if I steal special attack boosts. Even if I can't steal, such as against Poison Heal Gigas, or if they're really dead-set on Impostering me every time I do steal, Boomburst does good, solid damage on its own. Arceus is more than strong enough to counter most set-up-and-sweep spam teams and Unaware keeps the opponent from successfully Sash Smashing and breaking through anyway. And if I can do so safely, I can pass it to an actual attacker to go win the game.

Or pass to Yveltal. That set is surprisingly scary with a couple of Shell Smash or Shift Gear boosts under its belt.



Gengar-Mega @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Hex
- Secret Sword
- Defog
I'll admit, this could probably be done a little more optimally using a Judgement set. Or maybe efficiently is the word I'm looking for? Either way, Judgement sets do lack the same high points of this set. It's kind of a... consistency vs potential power trade-off. Venoshock and Hex really need no explanation on this team, although worth mentioning the former is great vs. cocky Mega-Audinos expecting me to run just Ghost/Fighting coverage. And Secret Sword? Coverage that hits Chansey better. Aura Sphere could work too, really, but I don't click that move slot much to begin with and probably could have stood to look into other options.

Defog though? This set suffers from what I call "Three Move Slot Syndrome" or "What The Hell Do I Do With My Last Moveslot Syndrome." I went through a lot of choices, such as Encore, Recover, Toxic, Volt Switch, and found I just wasn't clicking them much or they weren't effective. Eventually, I just plopped Defog here once I phased out Chansey and its Defog moveslot and, well, it works decently. I don't need my hazards up perpeptually, so its no big loss, and Gengar forces switches easily enough to safely remove them.

Ghostium Z is here so Gengar has some offensive presence when it can't get poison support on a desired target. Or to really, really, really hurt when it does. It also has the added benefits of Trick immunity and bypassing opposing Normalize Gengar as Never-Ending Nightmare still straight up OHKOs any such sets unless they have Focus Sash. And if they DO have Focus Sash, then they probably can't touch my Gengar to begin with.

But anyway, get in once the poison is in the opponents veins and auto-crit them to death. And get called a hacker by new players in the process. :D

...although, in several-month hindsight, I do think I might have been better served by using some sort of bulky offensive threat here. Ah well, that meta's dead and gone, so nobody will ever know!



Groudon-Primal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Precipice Blades
- Toxic Spikes
- V-create
- U-turn​

Finally, Primaldon: one of the most versatile Pokemon to ever grace Balanced Hackmons. This set smashes HARD by virtue of being Primal Groudon, even without poison support, and functions largely similar to Gengar above. Poison, then SMASH! However, it also works as a secondary Toxic Spikes setter, as I can bring it in on anything it forces out to set them up largely for free. If the opponent gets cheeky with like... Magic Bounce Giratina, a simple U-Turn to Gengar on the switch will stop that non-sense pretty quickly. Really, U-Turn's just a good move for Primaldon as, at the time, people ran random Water moves just for it and it really let me know on future switches which SMASH! move I needed to use.

The set is pretty straight forward. Scout, secondary set-up Toxic Spikes, and then SMASH when the time came.

These days? Well, I've been experimenting with Mega-Rayquaza, but it just doesn't fit well with the team. Replacing this slot has been a headache and one that's been keeping modern versions of this team from working nearly so well. Oh well, someday...



Known Weaknesses

-Ground attacks. Primal Groudon, Solgaleo, and Mega Gengar are all weak. Yveltal stops everything that's not Thousand Arrows and the rest of my defensive core is strong enough to withstand the arrows, typically.

-Refrigerate/Pixelate Primal Groudon, one of its mean lure sets. The Refrigerate version is nastier due to my use of Zygarde and good general resistance to Fairy attacks on my team. Baneful Bunker fortuntely scouts any surprise Boombursts on Yveltal and Zygarde, provided no predicted switch, and then lets me play around it from there. If their Groudon gets poisoned, mine will usually win on a safe switch.

-Lots of anti-status. Misty Surge is annoying, but Circle Throwing usually ensures they get poisoned eventually since Toxic Spikes trigger first. When it starts to suck is when they throw Heal Bell in the mix too for really overkill anti-status. Dealing with this is really match dependent, though playing Solgaleo's taunt well can stop the healing and, if I can drag the match long enough, I can drain the cleric PP.

-Steel/Poison/Flying heavy teams. More of a thing on mid and low ladder, but it still happens. Running into a team of five Mega-Rays and an Imposter, for example, is a pain in the butt when you use Toxic Spikes since they're almost all immune. Baneful Bunker luckily will pick up slack on some of these threats while Primal Groudon will man-handle most Steel and Poison types without needing Merciless.



Dealing With Imposters


Because I'm sure this will be asked...

-Gengar does nearly zilch to my non-poisoned team members, Arceus especially. Yveltal doesn't really care for Hex and will scare Imposters out with Knock Off. Zygarde can Core Enforce Merciless away. Solgaleo just straight-up won't take enough damage. My own Gengar can go for a Z-Hex in a pinch too if Imposter is weakened and especially if Poisoned. If they Defog my own T.Spikes, no biggie.

-Groudon is the harder of the two to deal with. Yveltal switches safely on Precipice Blades and can block V-Create with Baneful Bunker to make the Imposter sad. Zygarde can get in on V-Create, remove Merciless, and block Precipice Blades and punish a U-Turn with Baneful Bunker. Because both V-Create and Precipice are potentially poor choices, most ladder Imposters opt for U-Turn as the safe option. If they're poisoned, my own Primal Don threatens Imposter, especially on a predicted switch. Arceus can take it on in a fair slug fest and, thanks to its own recovery, should win. If they go for T.Spikes, four team members switch into them without a care and Gengar even deletes them effortlessly.

-Yveltal largely self-Imposter proofs. If Imposter shuffles me out, it's largely a matter of playing around it. Zygarde is my best switch since it doesn't fear Knock Off once the Toxic Orb is activated and can delete Poison Heal if they use anything but Circle Throw, which can be scouted with U-Turn and given a safe switch to Gengar to laugh before manual switching back to dodge Knock Off/Spectral Thief. Solgaleo is also an answer to unboosted Yveltal, since it outspeeds and can stall it with Strength Sap. Arceus can steal boosts from a boosted Imposter without fear of them getting stolen back, though takes some prediction to avoid Baneful Bunker.

-Solgaleo Improofs itself as Imposter can't hurt it. Zygarde, Yveltal, and Gengar all switch into T.Spikes laid down readily and none of them really care much about Taunt. Gengar gets annoyed at Gear Grind, but can scare the Imposter out if the set isn't revealed or Imposter is posioned, and removes any Toxic Spikes for free.

-Zygarde usually swaps to Solgaleo, who can use Taunt to stop a Wish if they haven't already. If they do, Yveltal's my best bet to Circle Throw to prevent them proper target from getting the heal. If Imposter is Poisoned, Zygarde can gamble on removing Poison Heal. Otherwise, well, Zygarde is the most annoying Imposter to deal with. It's not a huge threat, but its disruptive and a Wish pass can be unfortunate.

-Arceus can stall out its own Imposter, especially if its poisoned. And if its unboosted then it is little threat to the rest of my team. If they are boosted, Imposter can't safely pass without Arceus just stealing the boosts in most cases nor can they steal them from Arceus If they pass to a Normal type, its usually PH Gigas, who is usually defeated by a pass to Zygarde-C and a Core Enforcer or a pass to Yveltal and a Circle Throw. I can also immediate pass/switch to Yveltal and Circle Throw them straight away too if they lack a Ghost-type or their boosts are non-threatening.


Replays


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-604061774 - vs DG9, a 401 turn spectacular in the BH Farm League that came out as a loss for me since I was running Defog instead of Rapid Spin. The replay breaks after turn 203, but you can see the full log here: http://sales-person-lion-78425.bitballoon.com/

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-614107935 - vs Semako in a ladder match. Notable in that this is the team they used to eventually peak the ladder. Not sure if it's their final version or not though.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-614109527 - vs The Sweep King in a ladder match. An early crit plus some major misplays leads to me stalling out for a forfeit win. Misty Surge Margearna + Shedinja is rather annoying.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-614118227 - vs nhjed in a ladder match. Misplay with Arceus at the start, but stall out to a forfeit.


Solgaleo @ Leftovers
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
- Strength Sap
- Gear Grind

Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off
- Baneful Bunker
- Spectral Thief

Zygarde-Complete @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer
- Wish
- Baneful Bunker

Arceus @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Boomburst
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Baton Pass

Gengar-Mega @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Hex
- Secret Sword
- Defog

Groudon-Primal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Precipice Blades
- Toxic Spikes
- V-create
- U-turn
 

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