Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Celeb]

Some guidelines to follow:
- We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon. It does not matter if Pokémon X does the same thing better than Pokémon Y; if both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such. (e.g. Corphish should be E-Tier, because Carvanha does its job way better)

I've read this guideline and I find it faulty. Half of our discussions here can be suppressed by it if you think about it. Way earlier, I made a point why Treecko should not be in the same tier as Shroomish since it struggles much more for a longer period of time. Sumwut, in his argument about Zubat mentioned how Oddish is similar in terms of usefulness. Hell, even you were inclined to lower Groudon's and Kyogre's tier because of Rayquaza's better performance in late game.

My point is that grass types have an easy time in the later parts of the game but it doesn't mean much when most of water Pokemon found on Routes 124-134 faint in 1-2 neutral hits anyway. In my playthroughs, I am able to freely switch between my Pokemon are train them equally because this segment of the game is such a cakewalk.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I've read this guideline and I find it faulty. Half of our discussions here can be suppressed by it if you think about it. Way earlier, I made a point why Treecko should not be in the same tier as Shroomish since it struggles much more for a longer period of time. Sumwut, in his argument about Zubat mentioned how Oddish is similar in terms of usefulness. Hell, even you were inclined to lower Groudon's and Kyogre's tier because of Rayquaza's better performance in late game.

I think you are misunderstanding the point of the guideline.

The purpose of the guideline is to say that the In-game Tier List threads are not treated the same as Viability Rankings Threads in competitive. What I mean with this is that Viability Ranking Threads are designed to educate people on what the best Pokémon are in the metagame (and what is viable and how viable) and are treated with the "play to win" mindset and as such, Pokémon that are otherwise viable in the metagame but are absolutely outclassed by a superior Pokémon should never be ranked.

In-game Tier List threads on the other hand, are designed with the mindset that you want to clear a casual playthrough of a mainline Pokémon game as efficiently as possible with a decently-sized team (generally at least three "actively fighting" members) and tell you how well that Pokémon can contribute towards getting through the game as efficiently as possible, and accepts that you want to use a specific Pokémon because you want to use that Pokémon and tells you how "efficient" it is in a casual run. The difference between this and the Viability Rankings is that basically here, outclassed =/= unranked or instant Tier 5 or w/e you want to call it unlike Viability Rankings.

In other words, Viability Rankings focus on what, how, and why, while In-game Tier Lists focus on what and how (What does it do? How does it fare? Why should you use this?).

Because of this difference in focus, while comparison arguments aren't necessarily bad for these threads, they shouldn't be used as the main argument for tiering; Pokémon should be tiered based on merit and not based on another Pokémon's performance. For example, Treecko ideally if it should be dropped, it's because its efficiency factor is simply "not good enough" for A-Tier, not because Oddish puts on a "similar" performance to it (which says more about Oddish than Treecko) or alternatively, its efficiency is as "bad" as Oddish (This could alternatively mean that Oddish is as good as Treecko and warrant an Oddish rise).

The guideline could be worded a little better to reflect this? Idk.

EDIT: Just to further clarify, rankings are subjective and are generally subject to change, meaning that there is a level of "fluidity" to a Pokémon's ranking. This is generally bad for using comparisons as arguments because the Pokémon in question that is being used could later be found to be better or worse than first thought (though not very likely, it can happen), meaning that the comparison could later be found to be "incorrect".

I also had other trains of thought that I was going to post related to this, but forgot.

 

[Lucchini]

The wording has never been perfect and has always led to misunderstandings tbqh. Try arguing that Pokemon A is at least as good as Pokemon B, and people will remind you that "we don't compare Pokemon here".

I suppose it IS possible to avoid comparison entirely by having incredibly precise and detailed descriptions of each tier, but checking how he ranked other Pokemon can be really helpful in ensuring they're all ranked correctly.

 

[Celeb]

The difference between this and the Viability Rankings is that basically here, outclassed =/= unranked or instant Tier 5 or w/e you want to call it unlike Viability Rankings.

I never once said that grass types should be lowered in tiers because of their performance relative to other types. However, I am not going to back down from my argument since typing is one of factors when discussing Pokemon here and grass type's usefulness is bloated. It is ineffective against most of the opponents in the game but people sometimes disregard that due to their sweeping potential between Lilycove and Victory Road (which is like 1/3 of the game at best).

 

[Merritt]

I never once said that grass types should be lowered in tiers because of their performance relative to other types. However, I am not going to back down from my argument since typing is one of factors when discussing Pokemon here and grass type's usefulness is bloated. It is ineffective against most of the opponents in the game but people sometimes disregard that due to their sweeping potential between Lilycove and Victory Road (which is like 1/3 of the game at best).

The reason why I quoted the guideline at you was because you made a statement that Grass types only shine against the 8th gym, and proceeded to say out that the other places Grass types have use can be done by other Pokemon. It doesn't matter if other Pokemon can do it too, if a Grass type can beat Roxanne they get credit for being able to, nevermind that you could also use a water type.

The way I personally look at the rule is that you should look at it as ranking the Pokemon based on the assumption that you will use it and don't overly factor other options or even teammates in. This does allow for favorable comparisons - "Pokemon A does exactly the same things as Pokemon B with about the same level of efficiency even though it comes very slightly earlier so they should be ranked together" but doesn't cause the reverse of "Pokemon A does the same things as Pokemon B but comes one route and no major battles earlier so Pokemon B should be even lower since you can use Pokemon A instead."

Regardless, the main reason why having sweeping potential at that point is valuable is because it allows for that Pokemon to have a much higher level going into the Elite Four without requiring grinding. While a Pokemon like Camerupt might struggle to compete with the Elite Four due to being somewhat underleveled since it has more limited use between Lilycove and Ever Grande compared to something like Sceptile who can honestly get to nearly the point it wants to be for the League due to being at worst a safe choice to have first (usually an advantageous one) for that portion of the game.

That being said, it's a perfectly fine argument to say that Grass type effectiveness is overstated, although I'd prefer if it came with a nomination alongside it.

In other news, moved Oddish (Vileplume) down to C, I did another run with it and purposefully caught one with a low Speed IV and neutral nature. It was almost shocking how important the good IV or +Spe nature was in the past two uses, and if something requires that then the efficiency takes enough of a hit to bring it down when it was already somewhat borderline.

 

[sumwun]

Why is Zangoose A tier? Its availability and typing are not particularly good, and its only good moves are swords dance and strength unless the player uses TMs on it.

 

[Merritt]

Why is Zangoose A tier? Its availability and typing are not particularly good, and its only good moves are swords dance and strength unless the player uses TMs on it.

Zangoose has good availability, coming right near the beginning of midgame (before Mt Chimney), and its typing, while nothing spectacular, does give it STAB on the immediately available Strength. Its sheer power is actually very impressive, especially for that point in the game, and while its movepool is admittedly shallow it has everything Zangoose needs to succeed. Strength alone carries Zangoose for a good while and if you choose Zangoose makes absolutely amazing use of Shadow Ball and Brick Break - I'd go as far as to say that Zangoose is the best non-STAB user of the TMs in Ruby.

If you've never used Zangoose then I cannot overstate how highly I recommend you try it out. It's by far one of the best options available in Ruby, even if it might somehow seem underwhelming without looking closer.

 

[sumwun]

Should we list Plusle (RE), Minun (S), Grimer (RE), and Koffing (S) as E tier, just to keep with the "tier everything that's obtainable" rule? (also someone might see Grimer in D tier, decide to be an idiot, and use Grimer in Emerald)

 

[Its_A_Random]

I never once said that grass types should be lowered in tiers because of their performance relative to other types.

I never addressed your arguments for Grass-types or any other raise/lower you mentioned in general; I was referring to your misunderstanding of the guideline and explaining it as to what it means, etc.

 

[sumwun]

Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir
Ralts is found on Route 102, which is pretty close to the beginning of the game. However, this early availability means Ralts takes up a lot of experience throughout the game and underlevels its teammates a bit, especially since its growth rate is slow.
Ralts's and Kirlia's stats aren't very good, making it pretty much a deadweight against four of the first five gyms. As Gardevoir, it needs the thunderbolt TM to be helpful against a lot of late-game opponents, namely Winona, Tate & Liza, Sidney, Glacia, and Wallace, so Gardevoir is incompatible with other thunderbolt users like Manectric and Starmie. It sucks against Phoebe, Drake, and Steven no matter what moves it knows.
Mainly because of its slow growth rate and sub-par offensive typing, I nominate Ralts for B tier.

 

[Karxrida]

For the love of god, we do not need another fucking Zubat argument. This is like the fourth time you've brought the thing up for a rise -- just accept it's not happening.

Sorry if this comes across as minimodding, but I'm just tired of the Zubat topic. Plus it's been made pretty clear on multiple occasions that its current ranking is effectively final.

Also, I wouldn't call Drake a bad matchup for Garde. It has decent SpD and Dragon and Psychic are neutral against each other.

 

[Merritt]

When you start using arguments about how Fly is a "rare" HM when it's an HM that is obtained after surf and Wingull or Pelipper are available on almost every surfing location that's really stretching. It doesn't matter if Marill can also learn the HMs that Gyarados can because - as I quoted from the OP literally 10 posts before yours - We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon.

I'm not going to blacklist discussion on Zubat because I really don't want to start blacklisting Pokemon on an ingame tier list, but I will respectfully ask that you please not bring up Zubat again - let somebody else do it. As I said back on page 3, I'd need to see other support for it moving up before I'll move it. That hasn't happened.

On a happier note I'd love to hear some discussion on Ralts, there are valid arguments to bring it down to B and I think it's a somewhat important Pokemon to discuss. Also Makuhita discussion would be nice.

 

[Kurona]

I disagree on Gardevoir needing Thunderbolt to be useful. It's definitely one of the best moves it can learn, but I feel it does just fine with Psychic STAB against multiple late-game opponents.
I do feel though that its rarity and its babying until you get to Gardevoir are enough to move it down to B. I've lost count of the times I've used Ralts in a RSE playthrough and every time Ralts and Kirlia could barely get in any use aside from helping out a little against Brawly.

 

[sumwun]

Zigzagoon, Linoone (Emerald)
Zigzagoon can be found on Route 103, so it's available for almost the entire game.
Zigzagoon's first perk is that it learns headbutt with STAB at level 9. This, along with its decent speed, lets it sweep a lot of regular trainers early in the game. It learns a bunch of HMs, and it's particularly good for using strength in battle. It's also one of the best Pokemon in Emerald to learn the shadow ball TM, as shadow ball gives it neutral coverage against everything except steel types and lets it do pretty well against Tate & Liza and Phoebe. Linoone learns belly drum at level 53, so it can set up on stuff like Drake's Shelgon and Wallace's Ludicolo and sweep parts of their teams. Lastly, pickup is always nice to have, even if it's not as broken as it is in RS.
Because of its good availability, good ability, and passable stats and movepool, I nominate Zigzagoon for B tier in Emerald.

 

[sumwun]

Numel, Camerupt
Camerupt's main problem is that it's neither very fast nor very bulky, so it often has trouble bringing down multiple opponents in one battle. Additionally, its bad level up movepool leaves it stuck with ember, magnitude, and rock slide until after Lilycove City. Its only good gym matchup without TMs is Flannery, and it does okay against Winona only if it's taught overheat or fire blast. It does redeem itself a bit against the Elite Four, but it still has trouble bringing down multiple opponents in one battle.
Because of its bad stats and bad level up movepool, I nominate Numel for C tier.

 

[Merritt]

Zigzagoon, Linoone (Emerald)
Zigzagoon can be found on Route 103, so it's available for almost the entire game.
Zigzagoon's first perk is that it learns headbutt with STAB at level 9. This, along with its decent speed, lets it sweep a lot of regular trainers early in the game, leeching away exp from Pokemon who will be useful later for a Pokemon who does poorly in major battles. It learns a bunch of HMs, and it's one of the worse STAB users of strength in battle. It's also one of the Pokemon in Emerald who learns the shadow ball TM, but while shadow ball gives it neutral coverage against everything except steel types, Linoone is still incredibly weak, meaning that despite the type advantage it still fails to meaningfully contribute against Tate & Liza and Phoebe. Linoone learns belly drum at level 53 (a very high level to grind to considering Linoone’s major struggles against even route trainers late game) but if you put in that time it can set up on stuff like Drake's Shelgon and Wallace's Ludicolo if at a very high level (without Sitrus you need to outlevel which is a very big thing to ask of a Linoone) and sweep parts of their teams. Lastly, pickup is always nice to have, even if it's only slightly useful and unreliable for getting particularly useful items.
Because of its almost perfect availability, decent ability, and absolutely horrific stats and acceptable movepool, I cannot agree with Zigzagoon for B tier in Emerald.

I edited this to give a more accurate picture of Zigzagoon. Tl;dr version: Zigzagoon and Linoone is a horrific combat Pokemon once you get past the first couple gyms (where Zigzagoon is unlikely to contribute in a useful fashion) and stays that way for the rest of the game without obscene overleveling which is not efficient.

I cannot overstate this - Zigzagoon is a terrible combat Pokemon due to its low attacking stats and very low bulk. Using Zigzagoon for anything other than minor damage or utility is not efficient.

Meanwhile for Numel, it’s certainly one of the best users of the Overheat TM due to having a really good physical level up movepool, so unless you’re saving the tm for I don’t even know what Winona is actually a really good matchup bar Pelipper. Level 33 for Rock Slide definitely isn’t overly much to ask and magnitude is still generally a really good move. Level 37 Earthquake is incredibly good too, coming right around when Magnitude starts being less useful, and lets Camerupt continue rolling over opponents with its natural movepool bar Water types. Granted, there’s a lot of them lategame but Camerupt still contributes well vs Magqua, in Victory Road, and vs the Elite Four and Steven in RS.

The fact that you said this thing has a bad level up movepool is absolutely absurd - I’d say Camerupt has one of the best ones in RSE with free Rock Slide and Earthquake coming solidly midgame. It’s only real big flaw is slowness, making the thing a potion hog at times which is why Numel is where it currently stands.

 

[sumwun]

Meanwhile for Numel, it’s certainly one of the best users of the Overheat TM due to having a really good physical level up movepool, so unless you’re saving the tm for I don’t even know what Winona is actually a really good matchup bar Pelipper. Level 33 for Rock Slide definitely isn’t overly much to ask and magnitude is still generally a really good move. Level 37 Earthquake is incredibly good too, coming right around when Magnitude starts being less useful, and lets Camerupt continue rolling over opponents with its natural movepool bar Water types. Granted, there’s a lot of them lategame but Camerupt still contributes well vs Magqua, in Victory Road, and vs the Elite Four and Steven in RS.

The fact that you said this thing has a bad level up movepool is absolutely absurd - I’d say Camerupt has one of the best ones in RSE with free Rock Slide and Earthquake coming solidly midgame. It’s only real big flaw is slowness, making the thing a potion hog at times which is why Numel is where it currently stands.

I don't consider Winona a "really good matchup", since her strongest Pokemon is an Altaria that resists overheat and knows earthquake. Sure, it rolls over late-game opponents that aren't water type, but most other B tier things can roll over those same NPCs along with water types and Tate and Liza. Camerupt doesn't contribute well against the Elite Four, either, as all of them except Sidney carry several water or ground attacks, and Phoebe's two Banettes can each beat a like-leveled Camerupt by spamming shadow ball.

 

[Merritt]

I don't consider Winona a "really good matchup", since her strongest Pokemon is an Altaria that resists overheat and knows earthquake. Sure, it rolls over late-game opponents that aren't water type, but most other B tier things can roll over those same NPCs along with water types and Tate and Liza. Camerupt doesn't contribute well against the Elite Four, either, as all of them except Sidney carry several water or ground attacks, and Phoebe's two Banettes can each beat a like-leveled Camerupt by spamming shadow ball.

But why would you use Overheat on the Dragon-type when Camerupt evolves and instantly get Rock Slide which is super effective and hits Altaria's somewhat lower physical defense. Overheat lets you beat Skarmory (and Tropius), why on earth would you use it on Altaria? Earthquake does mean that Altaria 1v1s Camerupt unfortunately, but taking out half her team and doing a solid half to her ace is still what I'd call a good matchup.

The elite four meanwhile carry way less ground and water attacks than you seem to think - bar Steven, Wallace, and RS Glacia (Emerald Glacia has only Walrein with a water type attack) none of the elite four have more than 1 mon with those types of moves excluding Emerald Drake who has 2.

Honestly you're coming across as if you've never tried out Camerupt - it's significantly better than it looks on paper where your arguments seem to be coming from. I'd say it's certainly better than all of the C ranks if you want to compare to other ranked mons.

 

[sumwun]

But why would you use Overheat on the Dragon-type when Camerupt evolves and instantly get Rock Slide which is super effective and hits Altaria's somewhat lower physical defense. Overheat lets you beat Skarmory (and Tropius), why on earth would you use it on Altaria? Earthquake does mean that Altaria 1v1s Camerupt unfortunately, but taking out half her team and doing a solid half to her ace is still what I'd call a good matchup.

The elite four meanwhile carry way less ground and water attacks than you seem to think - bar Steven, Wallace, and RS Glacia (Emerald Glacia has only Walrein with a water type attack) none of the elite four have more than 1 mon with those types of moves excluding Emerald Drake who has 2.

Honestly you're coming across as if you've never tried out Camerupt - it's significantly better than it looks on paper where your arguments seem to be coming from. I'd say it's certainly better than all of the C ranks if you want to compare to other ranked mons.

Yes, I have tried using Numel before (in Emerald, so I admit that any Steven-related arguments were made "on paper"), and it didn't evolve before I got to Fortree Gym. Because Numel is relatively frail, it won't take out half of Winona's team unless the player uses lots of X defends and healing items (or overlevels it). And while I did exaggerate the amount of water attacks used by the Elite Four, Phoebe and Drake each have 2-3 Pokemon that can 1v1 Camerupt without using water or ground attacks. The matchup against Steven isn't that good either, as his Armaldo has water pulse and his Claydol and Metagross have earthquake.

 

[sumwun]

Geodude, Graveler, Golem
Geodude can be found on Granite Cave's 1F, which is pretty early.
Geodude learns magnitude, an average power 71 ground attack, at level 16. This, along with resistances to common types like normal and electric, makes it a big help against regular trainers in the first half of the game. Because of typing and the fact that its base physical attack becomes 110 before the 4th gym, it works great against Wattson, Flannery, and Norman. Self-destruct's effective base power was 400 in this generation, so Golem can almost always defeat at least one Pokemon in each major battle in addition to the ones it defeats by sweeping. Golem is less useful against the last three gyms and the late-game water Pokemon, but it remains useful against most other trainers and the antagonists. It picks up again at Victory Road, when people start using non-water type Pokemon, this time contributing a lot against the first two Elite Four members.
Because it can be found early, has good stats for an early-game Pokemon, learns good ground STABs and self-destruct, and has a typing that's sometimes good, I nominate Geodude (trade) for B tier.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Geodude, Graveler, Golem
Geodude can be found on Granite Cave's 1F, which is pretty early.
Geodude learns magnitude, an average power 71 ground attack, at level 16. This, along with resistances to common types like normal and electric, makes it a big help against regular trainers in the first half of the game. Because of typing and the fact that its base physical attack becomes 110 before the 4th gym, it works great against Wattson, Flannery, and Norman. Self-destruct's effective base power was 400 in this generation, so Golem can almost always defeat at least one Pokemon in each major battle in addition to the ones it defeats by sweeping. Golem is less useful against the last three gyms and the late-game water Pokemon, but it remains useful against most other trainers and the antagonists. It picks up again at Victory Road, when people start using non-water type Pokemon, this time contributing a lot against the first two Elite Four members.
Because it can be found early, has good stats for an early-game Pokemon, learns good ground STABs and self-destruct, and has a typing that's sometimes good, I nominate Geodude (trade) for B tier.

I kinda take issue with the part in bold "this time contributing a lot against the first two Elite Four members." Golem doesn't have a type advantage over either Sydney or Phoebe and both of them have two pokemon that clearly win a 1v1 over you (Sydney's Cacturne + Sharpedo/Crawdaunt and Phoebe's Ice Beam Dusclops + WoW Banette). Also, without overleveling, Golem is so slow that it will take a hit first (and again you don't have type advantage), which while this doesn't really matter against Sydney's other pokemon, it matters against Phoebe. Her Ghosts are defensive enough that without a type advantage, you're going to be there for a while and her other pokes can do quite a bit to you (RS - her other Banette has Toxic to cripple / make you waste an item and Psychic which while non-STAB hits Golem's much weaker Special Defense and her Sableye also has Psychic; E - other Banette still has Psychic).

I haven't used Graveler/Golem in RSE, so I'm not arguing with your conclusion of B tier, but that last line of reasoning seemed flawed to me, so I wanted to say something (and if it doesn't do much against the first two E4 members, then it's kinda worthless in the entire back half of the game with the water routes, especially in Emerald - water Champion - which feels more like C rank imo, but again haven't used it so I don't have a strong feeling on its placement)

 

[sumwun]

I kinda take issue with the part in bold "this time contributing a lot against the first two Elite Four members." Golem doesn't have a type advantage over either Sydney or Phoebe and both of them have two pokemon that clearly win a 1v1 over you (Sydney's Cacturne + Sharpedo/Crawdaunt and Phoebe's Ice Beam Dusclops + WoW Banette). Also, without overleveling, Golem is so slow that it will take a hit first (and again you don't have type advantage), which while this doesn't really matter against Sydney's other pokemon, it matters against Phoebe. Her Ghosts are defensive enough that without a type advantage, you're going to be there for a while and her other pokes can do quite a bit to you (RS - her other Banette has Toxic to cripple / make you waste an item and Psychic which while non-STAB hits Golem's much weaker Special Defense and her Sableye also has Psychic; E - other Banette still has Psychic).

Sidney does have two Pokemon that can 1v1 Golem, but Golem can sweep two of the other three (all three if you use potions) and try to use self-destruct on the Cacturne, Sharpedo, or Crawdaunt. Golem does have a much harder time sweeping Phoebe, but it can still beat 2-3 Pokemon other than the Dusclops with ice beam. I consider that a better-than average matchup.

 

[Karxrida]

Sidney does have two Pokemon that can 1v1 Golem, but Golem can sweep two of the other three (all three if you use potions) and try to use self-destruct on the Cacturne, Sharpedo, or Crawdaunt. Golem does have a much harder time sweeping Phoebe, but it can still beat 2-3 Pokemon other than the Dusclops with ice beam. I consider that a better-than average matchup.

If you lose to two Pokémon and have no particular advantage against the others, that's not even close to a positive matchup.

Also:

1. Mightyena has Intimidate to neuter your Attack. It can also still deal okay damage since Dark is Special and Golem's SpD is garbage.
2. Shifty is really haxy with Swagger and Double Team (plus Torment in Emerald), so good luck with fighting that when you're slower.

 

[sumwun]

1. Mightyena has Intimidate to neuter your Attack. It can also still deal okay damage since Dark is Special and Golem's SpD is garbage.

Golem won't be affected by intimidate if it tries to switch into Mightyena. Mightyena has a good chance of using take down or double-edge when Golem switches in, so it's usually pretty safe. Even if it does use crunch, it'll take less than 1/3 of a level 46 Golem's HP.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Golem won't be affected by intimidate if it tries to switch into Mightyena. Mightyena has a good chance of using take down or double-edge when Golem switches in, so it's usually pretty safe. Even if it does use crunch, it'll take less than 1/3 of a level 46 Golem's HP.

That's one slight improvement on one specific matchup (if people give you that little bit). Doesn't change the fact that Golem can't handle any of the E4 aside from a few specific pokemon like Drake's Altaria. No type advantage against any of them doesn't give Golem any "good" matchups. Plus it struggles mightily in major battles after Winona aside from the one fight against Maxie in Ruby and Emerald (and even that's a little iffy). Low speed means it will get hit first in the neutral matchups of the E4 like Phoebe and that hurts Golem immensely.