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NU Analyses Discussion Thread
- Thread starter soulgazer
- Start date
Speed n_n
I think a potential additional Torkoal moveset for the pokedex is in order is in order:
Ability: White smoke
Item:
Nature: Variable
EVs: Variable
1. Curse
2. Shell Smash/Iron Tail
3. Body Slam
4. Eruption/Inferno
Having both curse and shell smash allows option and adaptability to either raise special attack or to become defensive (additionally can raise speed, which can help to out-speed certain opponents). This can be well used if baton passed in with speed boosts, allowing free uses of curse, and following shell shock without going below starting defense. Iron tail can be additionally replace either, depending on how you use it, for another powerful attack and a way to lower defense, further helping with attack boosts. Body slam is essential, given the potential paralysis. This can make up for it's low speed, in particular when shell shock is being used. The fourth move provides a powerful stab move. Overheat is not a good option given it lowers stats. Eruption provides more power, thought will lower in power as HP is lowered. Pairing this with curse and keep HP high, and keep the move near it's max power. Inferno is more reliable, with constant power, and burns, further aiding with it's defenses by halving opponent attack. It doesn't however have as much power at maximum. Can sweep very well on trick room teams, which is helped by curse, making among the slowest pokemon period after multiple curses. EV distribution can vary. 252 in either SpA or Atk is essential. One can either put 252 in the opposite offensive stat, for an offensive set, or in Def, is one wants to make better use of curse. The remainder would be in whichever of the previous three was not used. Nature can vary on preference, depending on EVs, and either Brave, Relaxed, or Quiet can be chose. Item can vary on preference.
Note: It has a niche for a few reasons. With 20 base speed, and very use of curse, it can be among the slowest pokemon for trick room situations. Secondly, it has access to eruption, which at max power is one the most powerful moves period. Thirdly, it's a very good physical wall, as well as access to both curse and inferno, which always burns opponents (halving their attack). With this in mind, it's also a mixed attacker with access to several move with 100 base power or higher.
Note: Recommendations on items would be nice.
Note: Sorry if this doesn't belong here.
Ability: White smoke
Item:
Nature: Variable
EVs: Variable
1. Curse
2. Shell Smash/Iron Tail
3. Body Slam
4. Eruption/Inferno
Having both curse and shell smash allows option and adaptability to either raise special attack or to become defensive (additionally can raise speed, which can help to out-speed certain opponents). This can be well used if baton passed in with speed boosts, allowing free uses of curse, and following shell shock without going below starting defense. Iron tail can be additionally replace either, depending on how you use it, for another powerful attack and a way to lower defense, further helping with attack boosts. Body slam is essential, given the potential paralysis. This can make up for it's low speed, in particular when shell shock is being used. The fourth move provides a powerful stab move. Overheat is not a good option given it lowers stats. Eruption provides more power, thought will lower in power as HP is lowered. Pairing this with curse and keep HP high, and keep the move near it's max power. Inferno is more reliable, with constant power, and burns, further aiding with it's defenses by halving opponent attack. It doesn't however have as much power at maximum. Can sweep very well on trick room teams, which is helped by curse, making among the slowest pokemon period after multiple curses. EV distribution can vary. 252 in either SpA or Atk is essential. One can either put 252 in the opposite offensive stat, for an offensive set, or in Def, is one wants to make better use of curse. The remainder would be in whichever of the previous three was not used. Nature can vary on preference, depending on EVs, and either Brave, Relaxed, or Quiet can be chose. Item can vary on preference.
Note: It has a niche for a few reasons. With 20 base speed, and very use of curse, it can be among the slowest pokemon for trick room situations. Secondly, it has access to eruption, which at max power is one the most powerful moves period. Thirdly, it's a very good physical wall, as well as access to both curse and inferno, which always burns opponents (halving their attack). With this in mind, it's also a mixed attacker with access to several move with 100 base power or higher.
Note: Recommendations on items would be nice.
Note: Sorry if this doesn't belong here.
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So if I were to write an idea for {Gothorita} set I would click on the write new thread button and give its description and an summary of the set and along with how it should be built in a team?
Sorry I just joined smogon forums
Sorry I just joined smogon forums
Hi Jace Black thank you for asking before you just posted a new thread. Once the reservation thread is up for ORAS you would be able to reserve any Pokemon on the list, Gothorita lost her niche in NU however by losing the ability to trap Pokemon. Without said niche and the fact that it is an NFE I do not forsee Gothorita getting an analysis this gen.
Thank you for your answer, but what if I were to do one for another pokemon this gen? What would be the process?
You would make a post in the [thread=nu-c-c-index-reserve-analyses-here.3514820/]Analyses Reservation Thread[/thread], and then post a skeleton using the link found in the op. The reservation thread has not been posted for ORAS yet, so keep an eye out for when that is posed sometime in the new year. I would also recommend introducing yourself in the mentor thread found [thread=new-smogon-introduction-and-hangout-thread-read-the-first-post.3522706/]here[/thread] and say you are interested in being mentored in C&C work.
Small nitpick about Sliggoo's analysis: It has Dragon Tail slashed as one of its moves, but it can't learn Dragon Tail.
Thats just a sample set created in the beginning of XY, there has not been an analysis for Sliggoo yet; but thanks for pointing that out.
Requesting Frogadier to get an update. I don't really think a whole analysis should be updated, just some updates in the set.
Frogadier gets, just like its broken evolution, access to Gunk Shot and Low Kick now, which is really useful. Gunk Shot allows it to hit Mega Audino better in general, 3HKOing it after Stealth Rock, which still isn't a lot, but with a little bit of prior damage it manages to 2HKO it after Stealth Rock, plus it resist its Fairy-type attacks (its 3hkoed by hydro pump too but it cannot be damaged that badly by dazzling gleam or smth, matters in a few cases only though). Not like this is the most useful, but it might deserve a mention in OO. Low Kick should probably be on the main set - Notable targets are Kangaskhan, Cryogonal (bulky variants are outsped, but i cannot switch in at all like it used to), Klinklang, and Lickilicky. AV Kanga avoids the 2HKO from Hydro Pump and Cryogonal just walls Frogadier without physical moves in general. However, with Low Kick, AV Kanga is outsped and 2HKOed, and Cryogonal is straight out OHKOed by Low Kick, while it would avoid the 2HKO of Hydro Pump (which can miss too). Supportive Lickilicky can avoid the 3HKO from Hydro Pump, while Low Kick 2HKOes it on the switch in.
For 2HKOing Klinklang, a spread of 22 Atk / 234 SpA / 252 Spe should be used. I believe it doens't miss out on any important KOes.
Also for you guys thinking why you shouldnt just hit Liepard & Klinklang with Hydro Pump because it hits better; it is less accurate and Low Kick means that Wild Charge from Klinklang is not super effective and thus the safer play to make (no klinklang would use gear grind anyway because it automatically resist when it switched in because of water being its 'real' type).
In general, I believe this could be a useful set:
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Low Kick / Grass Knot
- U-turn / Hidden Power Fire / Dark Pulse
(dark pulse hits uxie and mesprit better, two top tier threats, that's why i slashed it)
E: Lastly, the new mega's influence Frogadier - It's an excellent check to Mega Camerupt and Mega Steelix, while it troubles against M-Audino.
Frogadier gets, just like its broken evolution, access to Gunk Shot and Low Kick now, which is really useful. Gunk Shot allows it to hit Mega Audino better in general, 3HKOing it after Stealth Rock, which still isn't a lot, but with a little bit of prior damage it manages to 2HKO it after Stealth Rock, plus it resist its Fairy-type attacks (its 3hkoed by hydro pump too but it cannot be damaged that badly by dazzling gleam or smth, matters in a few cases only though). Not like this is the most useful, but it might deserve a mention in OO. Low Kick should probably be on the main set - Notable targets are Kangaskhan, Cryogonal (bulky variants are outsped, but i cannot switch in at all like it used to), Klinklang, and Lickilicky. AV Kanga avoids the 2HKO from Hydro Pump and Cryogonal just walls Frogadier without physical moves in general. However, with Low Kick, AV Kanga is outsped and 2HKOed, and Cryogonal is straight out OHKOed by Low Kick, while it would avoid the 2HKO of Hydro Pump (which can miss too). Supportive Lickilicky can avoid the 3HKO from Hydro Pump, while Low Kick 2HKOes it on the switch in.
For 2HKOing Klinklang, a spread of 22 Atk / 234 SpA / 252 Spe should be used. I believe it doens't miss out on any important KOes.
Also for you guys thinking why you shouldnt just hit Liepard & Klinklang with Hydro Pump because it hits better; it is less accurate and Low Kick means that Wild Charge from Klinklang is not super effective and thus the safer play to make (no klinklang would use gear grind anyway because it automatically resist when it switched in because of water being its 'real' type).
In general, I believe this could be a useful set:
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Low Kick / Grass Knot
- U-turn / Hidden Power Fire / Dark Pulse
(dark pulse hits uxie and mesprit better, two top tier threats, that's why i slashed it)
E: Lastly, the new mega's influence Frogadier - It's an excellent check to Mega Camerupt and Mega Steelix, while it troubles against M-Audino.
Low Kick:
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 195-229 (49.8 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 240 HP / 172 Def Cryogonal: 335-398 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 143-172 (50.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 205-244 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Hydro Pump:
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kangaskhan: 140-165 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 56+ SpD Cryogonal: 117-138 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 199-234 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Does more, but if it runs Wild Charge somehow, it's just OHKOed which it wouldn't if it were Fighting-type, plus it outspeeds)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- 52.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gunk Shot & M-Audino:
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 148-174 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Hydro Pump & M-Audino:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 142-168 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Again, you resist dazzling gleam which /could/ be useful in a few situations.
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 195-229 (49.8 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 240 HP / 172 Def Cryogonal: 335-398 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 143-172 (50.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 205-244 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Hydro Pump:
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kangaskhan: 140-165 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 56+ SpD Cryogonal: 117-138 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 199-234 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Does more, but if it runs Wild Charge somehow, it's just OHKOed which it wouldn't if it were Fighting-type, plus it outspeeds)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- 52.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gunk Shot & M-Audino:
22 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 148-174 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Hydro Pump & M-Audino:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 142-168 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Again, you resist dazzling gleam which /could/ be useful in a few situations.
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How is 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD a bad spread?
Or are you referring to the specs spread?
For Frogadier, I'm not sure if Low Kick is even that beneficial for Frogadier. It only really hits AV Kanga (which is not even that common), while Gunk Shot hits Cryogonal and Hariyama for equal damage (technically more due to the poison chance) while also plowing through Ludicolo which stops it also. Low Kick isn't even doing jack to Ferroseed.
That said, I do request Frogadier to get a rehaul, not just tweaks for the current special set, but a new addition in a physically mixed variant.
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
While it seems strange that 3 special moves are present on this physically mixed set, Gunk Shot is still the go-to move, as it hits many Pokemon for a good chunk of damage (most notably Mega Audino) and tends to be its most spammable attack. From there, its special attacks handle the majority of Poison-type resists in the tier, as Ground-types, Rock-types, Steel-types, and opposing Poison-types all get smacked hard; however, thanks to the Protean boost they still pack good power on their own even without much SpA investment. Between the diverse coverage and Protean boost, physically mixed Frog can threaten a majority of bulky cores in the meta, and has the speed to be of use against offense as well. This set faces much less competition from other Pokemon than the special set, which clashes significantly with Simipour.
Edit:
That said, I do request Frogadier to get a rehaul, not just tweaks for the current special set, but a new addition in a physically mixed variant.
It doesn't falter much in power behind special Frogadier, but the big reason behind the viability of physically mixed Frogadier is that it offers a Poison-type attacker that can slot nicely into offense. Offensive Poison-type sweepers are in extremely short supply, so the addition of Gunk Shot to Frog's movepool gives it a new and valuable niche. The set below v
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
Water + Poison has always been a terrific STAB combo in NU, but Qwilfish doesn't have the best STAB moves as well as coverage available, meaning it only truly becomes a threat under Rain, not to mention it is a tad reliant on Swords Dance to do the most kinds of damage (again, because of its STABs only being decent). Frogadier however is able to come out guns blazing much more effectively due to its better attacks, and has the coverage it needs to strike down any resistances that come its way.
While it seems strange that 3 special moves are present on this physically mixed set, Gunk Shot is still the go-to move, as it hits many Pokemon for a good chunk of damage (most notably Mega Audino) and tends to be its most spammable attack. From there, its special attacks handle the majority of Poison-type resists in the tier, as Ground-types, Rock-types, Steel-types, and opposing Poison-types all get smacked hard; however, thanks to the Protean boost they still pack good power on their own even without much SpA investment. Between the diverse coverage and Protean boost, physically mixed Frog can threaten a majority of bulky cores in the meta, and has the speed to be of use against offense as well. This set faces much less competition from other Pokemon than the special set, which clashes significantly with Simipour.
Edit:
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 152 Atk / 116 SpA / 240 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Taunt / Dark Pulse
Ability: Protean
EVs: 152 Atk / 116 SpA / 240 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Taunt / Dark Pulse
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I know http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-is-not-writing-sets-for-unviable-pokemon.3528800/ is a thing and I accept that. However:
Regardless of that though, persian is almost completed, written up and just waiting for someone to read through it. It's not viable, but to just drop a pretty much completed analysis seems like a waste of work when it's in a state very much near completed.
(That it's so close to completed is the only reason I even ask this.)
I'm replying to this since I remembered it.
There's a Lanturn spread of 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 SpD which makes it overall slightly more bulky compared to 40 HP. Personally I like this spread more and I know several others who do, so if there are no objections I'd like to see this spread put up instead.
Yeah, there were also some other spreads discussed here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lanturn-qc-1-3.3527403/
I was reading about Gorebyss and I think could be useful add some informations:
On counters, I would add Jynx. It's just a real counter of Gorebyss in old BW, so Gorebyss always carried Signal Beam over Ice Beam. I think for the same reason of Heliolisk (Dry Skin ability) it could be added.
Finally, I note that:
On counters, I would add Jynx. It's just a real counter of Gorebyss in old BW, so Gorebyss always carried Signal Beam over Ice Beam. I think for the same reason of Heliolisk (Dry Skin ability) it could be added.
Finally, I note that:
That's true, but not in a rain team. I'd add a simple "unless you use it on a Rain team"
I think Mr. Mime could use an analysis. It sets itself apart from Mesprit with Fairy STAB, Focus Blast, and base 90 Speed which beats Adamant Kangaskhan and Jolly Sawk. Scarf seems better done by Mesprit, but Life Orb looks strong. Jynx is still usually better as a Life Orb attacker, but Mr. Mime has Healing Wish and isn't weak to Stealth Rock. It also hard counters broken ass Chatot with Soundproof or can run Filter to take Bullet Punch from Hariyama better.
I agree, also has quite good base Special Defense as well as a variety of support / sweeping options.
I'm fine with Mr. Mime too, I'll put it on the reservation list shortly if no one disagrees
Also I think a couple more mons need revamps / sets added for ORAS. I brought it up in PM to the other mods but they didn't reply so posting it here:
Also I think a couple more mons need revamps / sets added for ORAS. I brought it up in PM to the other mods but they didn't reply so posting it here:
- Exeggutor (Timid and LO should be slashed on Specs imo. I also question the viability of a couple sets)
- Frogadier (was talked about before, Punch suggested a mixed set with Gunk Shot though I really haven't seen / used Frogadier much)
- Leafeon (WishPass should probably be added, and I think a Baton Pass set is a lot better too)
- Magmortar (I think Psychic is more popular on this nowadays so that should be looked into, I've also heard about people using AV but again I haven't faced / used it a whole lot)
- Mesprit (needs a special Scarf set)
- Pignite (is viable)
- Seismitoad (Offensive SR set should be added)
- Swellow (gets HW + Boomburst, and from what I've seen Specs is more popular in general now)
- Uxie (CM + 3 attacks should be added. Different coverage on SubCM should also be tested)
You guys told me that offensive sr seismitoad was bad when I did the initial analysis >.>
Yeah, I agree with all of that stuff. Maybe psychic can be added as a slash through scms, idk if Magmortar really needs a full revamp; but then again EQ probably isn't as good as it was with dragalge.
CM 3 attacks Uxie should be cm / Psyshock / signal beam / giga drain | hp fire imo
Yeah, I agree with all of that stuff. Maybe psychic can be added as a slash through scms, idk if Magmortar really needs a full revamp; but then again EQ probably isn't as good as it was with dragalge.
CM 3 attacks Uxie should be cm / Psyshock / signal beam / giga drain | hp fire imo
Haven't had much experience with Leafeon, Frogadier or Pignite. Magmortar definitely needs a revamp, I know a bunch of us have only been running AV and it's probably the best set right now. I agree with everything but specs being the most common swellow set right now, i've seen like 3 phys to 1 specs ;) would love to see these added.
Exeggutor: agree, but LumRest definitely deserves to stay on the analysis if that's what you're questioning. subseed is weak and should probably be axed.
Frogadier: I'm not sure what the ideal set is, but gunk shot is worth. probably like gunk shot/hydro pump/ice beam/u-turn or other filler
agree with all the rest
specs swellow isn't as common as physical but that's because people are pussies and afraid to use a special attacker with base 50 SpA. it's incredible and honestly I don't even think the physical set is viable, even if mega steelix wasn't in the meta.
Frogadier: I'm not sure what the ideal set is, but gunk shot is worth. probably like gunk shot/hydro pump/ice beam/u-turn or other filler
agree with all the rest
specs swellow isn't as common as physical but that's because people are pussies and afraid to use a special attacker with base 50 SpA. it's incredible and honestly I don't even think the physical set is viable, even if mega steelix wasn't in the meta.