np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

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On Mewnium Z
: I was leaning towards unban at first, but after reading dodmen's post and thinking/testing for a few days, I have changed my mind and came to the conclusion that Mewnium shouldn't stay in UU. The points that led me to think it wasn't broken at first still stand: while Mew is a powerful wallbreaker with great versatility, it's held back by a relatively low Speed stat and a mediocre typing which make it rather easy to revenge kill. Psychic Terrain is really cool, but it doesn't last long enough for Mew or its teammates to really abuse it. Against offensive teams, most of the time you'll set NP and take a hit, kill something with Genesis Supernova and get revenge killed the turn after. You then have 3 turns of Terrain to use with your other mons (2 with Shark because you have to Protect), which really isn't much. So from the point of vue of offense, Mew isn't very difficult to deal with.

What in my opinion is problematic with Mewnium Z, though, is how incredibly hard it is to deal with when using bulkier, slower builds. Mew might not be the first threatening wallbreaker to be allowed in the tier, but most of these wallbreakers (Primarina, Volcanion, Crawdaunt, Bewear) are predictable or have shortcomings (they're slow or frail or both) that prevent them from being broken. Meanwhile, Mew outspeeds most mons you'll see on these stallish teams, is bulky enough to take a hit and is very unpredictable, since it can can run literally anything to beat its checks. Balanced teams are pretty much forced to run scarf Hydreigon, Gengar or some other fast Dark/Ghost type to deal with Mew, while stall just has no good answer to it, bar a few unviable, incredibly niche mons (before you think about it, Mandibuzz isn't a good answer to Mew).

My opinion on Mewnium Z could obviously change (again) in the days to come, but as it is, I think I'll be voting for Mewnium Z to remain in BL.
 
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Since I'm on the rotating council, I figured I should post about my thoughts on Mewnium Z. Luckily, I've actually had time to ladder this week, so I do have experience playing with and against this thing. TLDR at the bottom, if you don't feel like reading this entire wall of text.

I think Dodmen and Sparrow already said most of the things I would want to bring up about Mewnium Z. While the tier does have some very good psychic immunities, my main problem is the fact that Mew can carry coverage to cripple or ko popular dark types in the tier, meaning that you still have to be careful switching in your immunities. I've been running Rock Polish, shoutouts Sparrow for the idea, and it's really good. Dropping coverage may seem like a bad idea, but like Dodmen stated, it doesn't need the coverage in most cases because of how powerful GS and Psychic Terrain is. Empoleon walls it, sure, but Empoleon isn't that hard to wear down due to its lack of reliable recovery, especially if it's being used to also switch in to Mew's allies. If Mew gets a speed boost, which isn't that hard considering Mew has really good bulk that allows it to shrug off many attacks despite its poor defensive typing, and it can force many switches thanks to its coverage often forcing the opponent to scout, offensive teams risk being cleaned up because of how hard terrain boosted psychic hits, even when unboosted. Stall and Balance usually have the majority of their teams outpaced by Mew, I mean its speed isn't the greatest by any means, but being faster than things like Krookodile and Hydreigon is certainly handy against bulky teams, and like I already mentioned, its bulk is enough to shrug off hits from offensive powerhouses if needed, so setting up is not very difficult, which is also helped by the fact that opponents usually have to scout your moveset, allowing Mew to gain many free turns to set up.

Obviously, having no real counters doesn't necessarily make a Pokémon broken. But the problem with Mewnium Z is that psychic terrain blocks priority, which would otherwise be a very good counter play to Mew, although it needs to be Sucker Punch to garuntee the kill, which allows Mew to start tearing through offense teams with boosted psychics if it gets off a rock polish, which isn't that hard considering that it gets plenty of set up opportunities. This isn't even taking into account that Mew by its very nature is unpredictable. Being forced to scout its set makes it very easy for Mew to start wearing down a team, and this makes Mew pair very well with spikes and other sweepers. The biggest weakness Mewnium Z has, imo, is 4mss, but considering that GS hits anything not immune for a lot of damage, and the fact that most of its answers can easily be taken care of teammates, I think that Mewnium Z just pushes Mew a little too over the top. It's not as broken as some other monsters in BL, but the amount of pressure GS puts on the opponent, combined with endless coverage allowing you to simply pick and choose your counters, makes this item broken imo. That's why I'm voting Ban.

TLDR:
GS is an absolute nuke, and most potential switch ins get destroyed by coverage. Rock Polish allows you to even shred offensive teams, especially with how easy it is to set up, and being immune to priority after GS, which would for the most part still need some chip to actually take care of Mew, makes Mewnium Z way too good against virtually every play style, and broken imo.

Ban
 
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Sacri'

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Took me a fair amount of times to make my decision but here I am after testing and reading through this thread. When Mewnium was first released, I found it stupidly hard to deal with which is why I had a rather negative preconception about it potentially coming back to UU. Further testing just comforted my initial thoughts. Mew is incredibly versatile which means it has virtually no reliable answer. That alone doesn't make it ban worthy, it simply means beating Mew comes down to playing decently which isn't that hard to do against other fearsome wallbreakers such as Haxorus. However, Mews overall decent bulk makes setting up rather easy and the incredible power given by Genesis Supernova means slow teams dont stand a chance at beating Mew which heavily restricts teambuilding for these teams. Rock Polish is a very good option that makes Mews impact much less one dimensional, Psychic Terrain combined with +2 speed means it simply can't be outsped and that alone means it can give more offensive teams a run for their money. Mews incredible versatility paired with the absolute nuke given by Mewnium seems to be too much for the tier to handle which is what I want Mewnium Z to remain BL.
 

Kushalos

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Not a big fan of how it gains that incredible onetime breaking move without drawbacks that gives it a huge boon to boot. Havent played a lot with or against it(like 3 games or something) but I can def see it becoming a problem in the future. Mon in itself is already super unpredictable cause it can run literally anything it wants to tho that in itself isnt that broken, so to damper it a bit id like to see mewnium remain in BL. Most points have already been made so not gonna repeat all that shit over again.
 

Killintime

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Hmmm I had a decent amount of time to play with it and against it, for the most part I am known for using stupidly fat and slow teams. Don't hang me for this one but I didn't really have any troubles versus it, I think it may have just been how I build though. The biggest thing for mew is that fact it doesn't actually have to get off a nasty plot to sweep. Rock polish+basically a specs psychic+coverage move of choice+priority blocker is one hell of a combination, but it still needs to get past latias, opposing bulky psychics, and faster pokemon in general so I never really see it get farther than 1-2 kills. I am still leaning towards ban since this thing can still take advantage of ninetails offence quite effectively with getting multiple nasty plot boosts and easily eating a sucker or knock to attempt a sweep. So ye thats pretty much all I have to say on that (I honestly liked 3 attack polish better as a late game sweeper).
 

Freeroamer

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Erm that seems really shoddy reasoning for a ban, not wanting to jump down your throat but I don't really get how you go from I've never really seen this get more than 1-2 kills but it destroys a niche offense style so it's probably banworthy. Maybe I'm missing something?
 

Killintime

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Erm that seems really shoddy reasoning for a ban, not wanting to jump down your throat but I don't really get how you go from I've never really seen this get more than 1-2 kills but it destroys a niche offense style so it's probably banworthy. Maybe I'm missing something?
Sorry Freeroamer I didn't think I needed to go over the above posts, I don't think I said anything about it destroying any niche offence playstyle? All I said was that its capable of getting at least 1 kill per game.

Edit: In case you misread or something, I said it is pretty damn good on ninetails offence not versus it..?
 
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Freeroamer

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I think it will definitely be better this gen because it provides a Raikou check for typical bulky offenses that don't want to use Hippowdon because of how passive it is, as well as not giving the likes of Clefable free turns while still answering the likes of Aero and Bisharp well, and in general striking a nice balance between offensive presence and the bulk to check key threats and set up SR multiple times. Short thoughts for now because there's no point writing a novel on something that isn't here yet.
 

ehT

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I think it will definitely be better this gen because it provides a Raikou check for typical bulky offenses that don't want to use Hippowdon because of how passive it is, as well as not giving the likes of Clefable free turns while still answering the likes of Aero and Bisharp well, and in general striking a nice balance between offensive presence and the bulk to check key threats and set up SR multiple times. Short thoughts for now because there's no point writing a novel on something that isn't here yet.
Pretty much this. Its biggest selling point is being a Steel-type that doesn't get absolutely smoked by Raikou, which is a niche only really shared by, like, Ferroseed. I can see it being a really splashable mon on balance and BO for this reason + Aggron still being gone + Clef is stupid. That's some really unique role compression. That and the fact that Fire-types aren't as ubiquitous as they were in ORAS makes me think Lix will probably stay UU.
 
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so i didn't watch all the UUPL replays but i saw a few and like
healing wish clef
???????????????????????????????
how is this mon still allowed lol the team support it can provide is too much!!!!!!!!!!!

nah but twave, rocks, knock off, and now healing wish to add to gross utility moves it can run to screw u over?
its either too much, or just the right amount of role compression UU needed idk

also sad to see mega sharpedo had such low win rate :///
perhaps the high stakes tournament games don't bode well for a mon so prediction heavy in terms of when to use protect?
 
Oh.

Oh no.

For the love of god please no. Not that.

Onto being serious now. Terrakion is probably the most dangerous out of the legendary... goats? What the hell are they? Well, it's dangerous. That speed tier means that unlike, say, Lucario, Terrakion outruns a lot of common resists and straight up murders them because it has Rock as a secondary typing.

Oh, but that's not all. Nah, were just getting started. This beast of a mon has Edgequake coverage. Think your anything is safe? It's not. But it doesn't have to run that. It can run Swords Dance and shred literally everything slower than it. And if you're playing offense, Rock Polish. If you want to make somebody regret every single life choice they've ever made, Band, if you want to smack things like MAero out of the air, Scarf. And they're all viable options.

Let's not even get into Double Dance, because I don't think anybody has enough intestinal fortitude to not absolutely crap themselves if they see it boost on the switch with either then completely disregard a hit and set up the second or just straight up murder something to death. And it has decent bulk too, at least stat wise, but the typing doesn't do it too many favors.

But please, for the sake of everybody's sanity, don't let this broken as hell goat back into uu.
 

Freeroamer

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SD Z move seems extremely strong, necessitating checks like Doublade or Quagsire to keep it in check vs bulkier teams, not sure how good Rock Polish will be as Terrakion tends to get pretty beaten up by most priority in this tier, Extremespeed aside of course. I think Cobalion would actually do the whole speed boosting thing better, although the extra power and better STABs is appreciated. Probably be too good for UU just because of its sheer power combined with the scarcity of defensive checks and how it doesn't actually really need to predict that much thanks to fantastic STABs. Strong musketeer.
 

sparrow

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Really exciting and fun to watch UU ladder crumble under the hoof of Terrakion. This thing is terrifying and it really does split the tier in half. It's an extremely powerful attacker that smashes through walls; and it can destroy its checks and counters through the use of Choice Band. Quagsire, Doublade, Slowbro, Clefable etc. all fold to Band Terrakion with its superb power and decent coverage.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 234-276 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah this thing is strong af, but by HO standards it's quite slow, prone to common priority, and is difficult to switch in. Looking through the list of viable HO mons that threaten Terrakion; either through speed control or priority, we have: Aerodactyl, Hawlucha, Starmie, Raikou, Azelf, Zygarde, Tornadus, Gengar, Latias, Sharpedo, Scizor & Crawdaunt. Yes it's a decently long list, but of this list none can effectively switch into Terrakion. Furthermore, Terrakion is not difficult to support and it's able to boost its Speed stat making it less susceptible to RKO.
I think one clear show of how good a Pokemon is in a tier; is the fact that it's able to pick and choose its counters. For example, I'd like to explore the Double Dance set briefly; two items are all this set needs: Babiri Berry & Rockium-z. Babiri effectively lets it muscle past the best Pokemon in the tier; alleviating its weakness to priority (for reference: Crawdaunt must be Adamant + Choice Band in order to have >50% chance to KO after rocks). Rockium-z allows it to smash through Pokemon such as Slowbro, Alomomola, Gliscor, etc. Essentially forcing your opponents to run Pokemon such as Quagsire & Doublade.

I truly believe that this Pokemon has no counters, depending on what your team needs; it's able to fulfil the role of breaker & sweeper as well as work around offensive checks to its set up spreads. Terrakion is fun to use but isn't fun to play against.
Keldeo @ Salac Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Substitute
- Endeavor

Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail
- Stealth Rock

Latias @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Healing Wish

Magneton @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Scizor @ Iron Plate
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
SubSalac + Endeavor Keldeo lures offensive checks such as Latias, Starmie & Raikou either KOing them or putting them in KO range for RP Terrakion to clean up. It also lures fat Pokemon such as Slowbro, Alomomola, Clefable, etc. facilitating the same thing. Rockium-z Terrakion smashes through common stops to Scizor as well as helping it to sweep. Magneton is a massive deterrent to Scizor; and Latias also functions as a lure + HWish support is nice. Colbur Berry, is so M-Sharpedo doesn't donk the team. M-Aero provides Rocks + decent speed; able to damage Hippowdon & Gliscor, whilst keeping Raikou in check.
 
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pokemonisfun

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Partly for the sake of argument and partly because I don't think its as broken as some of the posts above me suggest, I will argue in this short post that Terrakion should remain UU because:

  • While Choice Band is incredibly strong and OHKOs/2HKOs almost everything (Hello Tangela :)), it has no truly "spammable" move that define Choice users like Primarina: Stone Edge has poor accuracy and Close Combat has to contend with several Ghost Pokemon including Gengar and Chandelure.
  • Choice Scarf sets are too weak to be considered broken - its merely an above average revenge killer than can pull of late game sweeps if and only if team support has already weakened the opponent
  • Boosting sets, which often use Z Stone Edge or occasionally Z Close Combat have a high opportunity cost (a Z move) and still have trouble sweeping after a boost for several reasons I will get into
On my first point, consider the usual Choice users in UU (and all of singles actually) - CB Scizor, Specs Magneton, Specs / Scarf Hydreigon, Specs Primarina, Scarf Infernape, Scarf Krookodile...the list goes on. All these Pokemon share at least of these two traits: a spammable move such as Moonblast or Knock Off and U-Turn / Volt Switch to maintain momentum. The only two possible exceptions I can think of are Volcanion, which can get away with it because it kind of is only purely walled by itself and Gengar/Chandelure which always run Trick. While absurdly strong, Terrakion's most spammable move only has 80% accuracy and is therefore not reliable. Additionally, bulky resists can be found on all teams -Krookodile, Conkeldurr and Hippowdon - so it may be hard to abuse. I would argue that the fact you have to predict with CB Terrakion is good and means there is some skill involved.

Nobody is arguing the Scarf set is breaking Terrakion, but it is still very viable. It does have as much of a spammability problem as CB since its job is not to punch holes; rather it prefers to revenge and sweep weakened teams. While it can revenge kill most weakened sweepers, the lack of power it has is hard not to notice - for example it cannot even reliably OHKO Infernape with Close Combat.

The Boosting sets may be the most dangerous set because their ability to sweep teams and end games. But they too face problems, most notably they rarely get a chance to both RP and SD and therefore either lack power or speed. Terrakion is unfortunately slower than Latias, Gengar, Zygarde, Mega Aero and Azelf as well as priority from Scizor, Conkeldurr, and Crawdaunt, so offensive teams will always have a way to revenge SD Terrakion. And RP by itself simply is not strong enough, even with a Z move, for example it cannot OHKO 0/0 Volcanion reliably, and many often run HP, with Stone Edge. Plenty of slower Pokemon like Mew and Celebi can tank a hit, and even frailer ones like Primarina work in a pinch.

This lack of power reveals another one of Terrakion's weaknesses that was not really emphasized yet: Terrakion has questionable defensive typing. Certainly resisting U-Turn, Stealth Rocks and often benefiting from Dark Moves is useful, but Terrakion also has a whole slew of weaknesses to Fighting, Water, Ground, Steel, Fairy, Grass and Psychic - almost any Pokemon can run a SE move and 2HKO Terrakion, should they choose to do so. This really limits the set up opportunities, which as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, does not even guarantee a win.

I did not mean to underrate Terrakion, which is certainly at least an A rank threat and quite possibly S ranked. It has very high Attack bolstered by a strong offensive movepool and above average speed, which means given the chance it can either wallbreak or sweep. All I do is argue that is if Terrakion wallbreaks, then it probably is doing so by skill, and if it sweeps, it probably is doing so with only significant team support, as sparrow's team demonstrates.

My (shitty) Terrakion team: https://pastebin.com/VZ5YDNYm Remind me to stick to Alomomola and Blisseys.
 
Really exciting and fun to watch UU ladder crumble under the hoof of Terrakion. This thing is terrifying and it really does split the tier in half. It's an extremely powerful attacker that smashes through walls; and it can destroy its checks and counters through the use of Choice Band. Quagsire, Doublade, Slowbro, Clefable etc. all fold to Band Terrakion with its superb power and decent coverage.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 234-276 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah this thing is strong af, but by HO standards it's quite slow, prone to common priority, and is difficult to switch in. Looking through the list of viable HO mons that threaten Terrakion; either through speed control or priority, we have: Aerodactyl, Hawlucha, Starmie, Raikou, Azelf, Zygarde, Tornadus, Gengar, Latias, Sharpedo, Scizor & Crawdaunt. Yes it's a decently long list, but of this list none can effectively switch into Terrakion. Furthermore, Terrakion is not difficult to support and it's able to boost its Speed stat making it less susceptible to RKO.
I think one clear show of how good a Pokemon is in a tier; is the fact that it's able to pick and choose its counters. For example, I'd like to explore the Double Dance set briefly; two items are all this set needs: Babiri Berry & Rockium-z. Babiri effectively lets it muscle past the best Pokemon in the tier; alleviating its weakness to priority (for reference: Crawdaunt must be Adamant + Choice Band in order to have >50% chance to KO after rocks). Rockium-z allows it to smash through Pokemon such as Slowbro, Alomomola, Gliscor, etc. Essentially forcing your opponents to run Pokemon such as Quagsire & Doublade.

I truly believe that this Pokemon has no counters, depending on what your team needs; it's able to fulfil the role of breaker & sweeper as well as work around offensive checks to its set up spreads. Terrakion is fun to use but isn't fun to play against.
While I agree that Terrakion would be one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, "split the tier in half" and "crumble the ladder" are quite massive exaggerations. Those replays you showed literally don't mean anything. The first one: Terrak RP'd and cleaned up a 25% Primarina, a 24% Celebi, a 75% Aerodactyl, and a 65% Hydreigon, a feat which can be accomplished by basically any scarfer, especially Fighting-type ones. The second replay, the one where Terrak puts the most work: Terrakion gets +2/+2 against Scarf Darmanitan, and still doesn't sweep the opposing team - it gets two kills before being revenged given an ideal setup situation, one that involves Darmanitan no less. Third replay: DD Z move Terrakion is flat out walled by the opposing stall team; it killed a 40% Tangela and then got forced out permanently. Pif could've even passed a Wish to Clefable if he wanted to preserve his Tangela and limit Terrak to 0 kills, risking only a Stone Edge crit, but he obviously didn't need to do that. Fourth replay: Terrakion didn't even hit the field.

A huge flaw of Terrakion is that it has almost no defensive presence, making building really difficult as it can't reliably handle stuff like Bisharp that similar Pokemon like Cobalion and Keldeo can. Look through your teambuilder, you'll see that 5-6 Pokemon on literally any team can 2HKO Terrakion, with rare exceptions being Blissey, Mandibuzz, and Togekiss (which is still a questionable switchin opportunity for Terrakion), off the top of my head. This really limits the ability of CB Terrak to get on the field, and the ability of SD Terrakion to set up safely.

Terrakion has to be played well and supported well no matter which set it's using. It most likely has to be brought onto the field via double switches. CB not only relies on heavy prediction, but an unreliable STAB, and can be scouted with common balance Pokemon like Amoonguss, Slowbro, Gliscor, etc. Sparrow posted calcs of Terrakion 2HKOing Doublade and Slowbro with coverage, but there's more contect - Terrakion has to be brought onto the field safely, use EQ on the switch to Doublade, and then deal with the consequences of being locked into EQ from there, after which it probably won't have another chance to come in safely and fire off a hit, as I've said. Same thing with locking into X-Scissor for Slowbro, only that's even less punishing to Slowbro than it was to Doublade (CB Edge only has a 40% chance to 2HKO Slowbro, not factoring in accuracy). SD Terrakionhas to be brought on the field safely and also relies on setup + use of a Z move to kill walls, something that makes an excellent wallbreaker, but not, in my opinion, a broken one. It can still be revenged killed by the many faster Pokemon in the tier, and is also weak to every form of priority in the tier besides Extremespeed.

That's not to say that I don't think Terrakion would turn out to be a premier wallbreaker in UU; as I've found while laddering, with the proper support and play it can certainly put in a lot of work. However, to me it has too many flaws and enough available counterplay to justify voting to keep it BL.

Here are some replays I saved while laddering:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-560977163 In this one my opponent and I both have Terrakion which in theory 2HKOes everything on each other's team. What ended up actually happening was I weakened his Swampert, he weakened my Clefable before we each pivoted out, then I forced a speed tie and lost mine. Neither Terrakion had even one "safe" switchin opportunity, so we both had to rely on double switches or bringing it in after a kill.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-560982082 Again in theory, my Terrakion 2HKOed everything on my opponent's team including Doublade with Earthquake. However, my opponent played around it well limiting it to literally 0 damage, helped by the fact that again, my Terrakion had no switchin opportunities whatsoever, meaning I had to double switch + predict to do anything.
 
I'll admit that prima facie it doesn't seem too ridiculous to keep terrak in a tier where keldeo, starmie, gengar, and bisharp are hanging about. I'm pretty sure that at least some of the perception of terrak's brokenness is a manifestation of the matchup issue, which hasn't been as big of a problem in UU as it has in OU since XY but might be something to think about (namely: is terrak 'the straw' that breaks a playstyle's matchup against a given-albeit-loose archetype or is it sine qua non warping the tier around itself)
 
: There hasn't been much discussion going on Terrakion lately (apart from fancy latin words guy) so I'll quickly post my thoughts.

I know a lot of people disagree with me but I don't think Terrakion should remain in BL. Before explaining my opinion, I'd like to say that I very much disagree with all the people saying things like "UU has enough wallbreakers so we shouldn't allow another one in the tier" without really trying to see if the mon deserves its ban or not. My reasoning is simple : if the mon is clearly "broken", better than the best mons in the tier and puts more pressure on the meta than the acceptable amount one mon should be putting, ban it ; if not, then unban it.

Terrakion, while being a really solid mon (it's a Rock-type, get it), just doesn't appear banworthy to me. It looks really scary on paper, with high Attack and Speed, good bulk, nice STABs combination and access to SD and RP, but in practice I have rarely seen it completely wreck teams as some have been claiming. The problem with Terrakion is that its typing is awful defensively, bringing almost no useful resist and being weak to many common types, which really affects its switching opportunities and its longevity on the field. In a tier where you have to use each teamslot with maximum efficiency to cover as many things as possible, it's hard to justify using Terrakion. The rock musketeer might be a fearsome wallbreaker, but there is a lot of competition between Fighting-types for a teamslot, and mons like Cobalion, Keldeo or even Bewear, which have much more useful defensive typings that let them check respectable amounts of threats, will often be prefered. Terrakion is also easier to stop than these, as it is weak to almost every form of priority and easily revenge killed by pretty much every faster mon (and there are many).

I believe Terrakion is still a very good mon and, if it is unbanned, will be amongst the top mons in the tier. It is just not good enough, for the reasons stated above, to justify keeping it banned.
 

Eyan

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So I've laddered a bunch with a few Terrakion sets, since I was bored for a good part of the week. Now, obviously, I didn't get the chance to test out a bunch of sets, but I've tried Swords Dance + Rockium Z, Choice Band, and Choice Scarf. There probably isn't much that hasn't already been touched upon, but yeah.

A trait that Terrakion tends to share with all the other suspected Pokemon so far is that it seems stupidly hard to switch into on paper. However, I think in this case, it's a lot more clear cut that this isn't actually true as compared to others like Victini and Staraptor. Its natural power and Speed are good, but every time it tries to make use of one of them more, the other suffers. This is probably best illustrated when you consider the multiple sets around.

Choice Scarf suffers in terms of its power, which was discussed above, such that a lot of the Pokemon that I'd expect or want it to OHKO tends to end up being a roll. Granted, this isn't exactly that much of a drawback, considering that as a revenge killer it'd more than likely come in on weakened foes, but the point still stands. It's by no means weak, but it falls a little short. Choice Band, on the other hand, is pretty devastating to switch into, but when you're a wallbreaker that would prefer to get on the field early-game to start punching holes in the opponent's team, it's a little disappointing with that defensive typing and bulk. The former makes it weak to almost every priority out there like the prominent Bullet Punch from Scizor, Aqua Jet, and Mach Punch, while the latter is average at the point where it really doesn't appreciate switching into even neutral attacks, which is the majority of what it'd even attempt to take on. This isn't taking into account that without a Choice Scarf, its Speed isn't particularly great. It's good, but with stuff like Aerodactyl, Latias, Keldeo, and Choice Scarf users being able to force it out afterwards, there's a good chance that it won't get much of a chance to break the tier in half as some people I know tend to insinuate. From my experience, these two Choiced sets both also sort of suffer from the fact that Terrakion is Choice locked itself; I've found its dual STAB coverage to be really important in securing KOs and making it hard for the opponent to recover, so being locked into one is really annoying and easily capitalised on by some decent pivoting. That's why I've mainly preferred the non-Choiced set that I used in SD + Rockium Z. It definitely doesn't have the starting power of Choice Band, but whenever Terrakion gets on the field, it forces out quite a bit of Pokemon, especially if the opponent hasn't had enough information about your team to figure out your set yet. It does, however, still have the inherent issue of being forced out easily later on, which heavily diminishes the effectiveness of the set. I know some people have tried stuff like SubSalac sets, but I'd imagine that they suffer from similar issues as that of those I described.

Overall, I found that despite building with the specific idea that I'd use a certain Terrakion set, it doesn't shine as much as I'd like it to. Perhaps it has to do with my teambuilding, but by the time I reached the point in a battle where Terrakion can actually do something useful, I didn't actually need it anymore, at least not more than I would anything else. I tend to sound very negative when I post regarding suspect Pokemon, but the pros of them tend to be very exaggerated anyhow. Sure, Terrakion is very very good, and it does what you'd want it to, but to me it definitely should be something that can be freed from BL without ripping the tier in half.
 
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