VGC 18 Ludicolo

Theorymon

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[OVERVIEW]

* Ludicolo is the premier rain sweeper of VGC 2018, having just enough Speed and Special Attack to become a potent threat under gloomy skies.

*It also has above average coverage for a Water-type, being among the few to hit Tapu Fini hard thanks to its Grass-type STAB.

* Fake Out is an excellent selling point as well, since under the rain, few Pokemon can offer a faster flinch than Ludicolo.

* It even has a good Special Defense stat that makes Ludicolo trickier to KO than expected for Special Attackers.

* However, Ludicolo has a poor Defense stat that makes it easy to revenge for bulky physical attackers.

* Ludicolo is highly reliant on rain to function. Without it, it's hard to justify it over bulkier offensive Water-types such as Tapu Fini

[SET]
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Energy Ball / Giga Drain
move 4: Fake Out / Protect
item: Waterium Z / Assault Vest
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

* Hydro Pump is extremely powerful in the rain, especially when used with Waterium Z. Hydro Vortex coming from Ludicolo in the rain is capable of OHKOing bulky offensive threats such as Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Metagross.

*Although it doesn't take advantage of Waterium Z nearly as well, Scald is a more reliable option than Hydro Pump overall, and it's burn chance can come in handy, especially when carrying Assault Vest.

* Ice Beam gives Ludicolo a way to OHKO Mega Salamence, Garchomp, and non Assault Vest Landorus-T regardless of the weather, in addition to hitting Naganadel and Hydreigon hard. It's also Ludicolo's only way of dealing reasonable damage to Grass-types such as Tapu Bulu and Amoonguss.

* Energy Ball is Ludicolo's most consistently powerful Grass-type STAB, notably 2HKOing maximum HP Tapu Fini. However, Giga Drain is a reasonable alternative for the healing it gives Ludicolo, at the cost of power.

* Fake Out is an incredible option for flinching foes on Ludicolo's first turn out as long as Psychic Terrain isn't up. However, Protect is a reasonable alternative for dodging powerful attacks.

* Waterium Z gives Ludicolo a one time chance to drown most Pokemon that don't resist Water-type attacks, especially if using Hydro Pump.

* Assault Vest takes advantage of Ludicolo's good Special Defense stat, letting it survive surprising attacks. If using Assault Vest, a bulkier spread of 92 HP / 4 Def / 124 SpA / 124 SpD / 164 Spe can be considered. This spread still has enough Special Attack to OHKO Mega Salamence with Ice Beam, and it can survive some powerful attacks, such as Kartana's Leaf Blade, Tapu Lele's Shattered Psyche, and Jolly Mega Kangaskhan's Double-Edge.

* Another EV spread to consider for Assault Vest Ludicolo is 204 HP / 20 Def / 124 SpA / 76 SpD / 84 Spe. This still allows Ludicolo to outspeed base 130 Speed Pokemon such as Tapu Koko and Mega Gengar, in exchange for much more bulk. For example, Life Orb Tapu Koko will fail to 2HKO this Ludicolo with Thunderbolt, and it even survives Modest Tapu Lele's Shattered Psyche.

* Life Orb gives Ludicolo a consistent power boost at the cost of its health. Most notably, this lets Ice Beam OHKO Naganadel and fast Assault Vest Landorus-T, and lets Scald OHKO Nihilego in the rain. However, the recoil makes Ludicolo easy to wear down.

* Swift Swim and a Modest nature are required for Ludicolo to blast through most Pokemon. Maximum Special Attack and Speed is fine if using Waterium Z or Life Orb to maximize damage output.

* A Timid nature can be used to outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Kartana, Modest Choice Scarf Naganadel, and Timid Choice Scarf Blacephalon, but this does result in a significant power loss.

* Since Ludicolo is a rain sweeper, rain setters are a required teammate. Pelipper is a great choice since it hits Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu hard, and is able to set up Tailwind to deal with fast Choice Scarf users.

* Politoed is a reasonable option due to its support movepool and having enough Speed to use a Choice Scarf. Politoed can also run Focus Blast and Fightinium Z to deal severe damage to Ferrothorn, a common problem for rain teams.

* Putting Rain Dance on Pokemon such as Gothitelle or Cresselia can be an effective way to surprise opposing weather setters, though it should be a back up option rather than the main way of setting up rain.

* Ludicolo teams will need a way to deal with Mega Charizard Y and to a lesser extent, Torkoal, since the sun cripples Ludicolo's offensive capabilities. Preparing for Tyranitar and Alolan Ninetales can be a good idea too.

* Ludicolo especially hates Trick Room due to its reliance on Swift Swim. Taunt users such as Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele can be useful, or even having a Trick Room user of your own such as Cresselia can help for resetting Trick Room.

* Prepare for bulky Grass-types Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, and Amoonguss, and since they are able to survive Ludicolo's assaults with little issue and hit it hard. Ferrothorn is especially troubling since it isn't weak to Pelipper's Hurricane.
 
Last edited:

Theorymon

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So something to note: I put in an alternate EV spread for AV: 84 HP / 4 Def / 116 SpA / 140 SpD / 164 Spe Modest or Calm 84 HP / 4 Def / 212 SpA / 44 SpD / 164 Spe Calm.

Basically I just designed it to survive Adamant Kartana's Leaf Blade the same % as the time it dodges a crit, and put in enough SpA to OHKO Mega Salamence, Outspeed Modest Scarf Lele, and dumped the rest in SpD because Z-Psychic is a bitch to take.

It may not be the best EV spread for AV though, so let me know if you guys have better ones!
 

Demantoid

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Comments in bold

[OVERVIEW]

Ludicolo is the premier rain sweeper of Battle Spot Doubles, having just enough Speed and Special Attack to become a potent threat under gloomy skies. Ludicolo also has above average coverage for a Water-type, being among the few to hit Tapu Fini hard thanks to its Grass-type STAB. Fake Out is an excellent selling point as well, since under the rain, few Pokemon can offer a faster flinch than Ludicolo. It even has a good Special Defense stat that makes Ludicolo trickier to KO than expected for Special Attackers. However, Ludicolo has a poor Defense stat that makes it easy to revenge for bulky physical attackers, and it has problems functioning well if the rainy weather is taken away from it. Maybe mention that an average special attack stat means it can't ohko most things on a neutral hit and that it relies on single target attacks

Below is a sample set. This set is likely to be the standard, but it will be expanded upon and updated as the metagame progresses.


[SET]
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Scald / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Giga Drain Slash Energy Ball here
move 4: Fake Out / Protect
item: Waterium Z / Assault Vest / Life Orb
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

* Scald is the most reliable STAB Ludicolo has for taking advantage of the rain. However, Hydro Pump is much more powerful despite its lower accuracy (for example, it OHKOs Nihilego under the rain unlike Scald), and is a great choice for taking advantage of Waterium Z.
* Ice Beam gives Ludicolo a way to OHKO Mega Salamence, Garchomp, and non Assault Vest Landorus-T regardless of the weather, in addition to hitting Hydreigon hard.
* Giga Drain lets Ludicolo slam Water-types such as Tapu Fini and Gastrodon while restoring some health.
* Fake Out is an incredible option for flinching foes on Ludicolo's first turn out as long as Psychic Terrain isn't up. However, if using Ludicolo with Tapu Lele, Protect is a reasonable alternative for dodging powerful attacks.
* Waterium Z gives Ludicolo a one time chance to drown most Pokemon that don't resist Water-type attacks, especially if using Hydro Pump. Give something like Mega Kang as an example something that's ohkod
* Assault Vest takes advantage of Ludicolo's good Special Defense stat, letting it survive surprising attacks.
* Life Orb gives Ludicolo a consistent power boost at the cost of its health. Most notably, this lets Ice Beam OHKO fast Assault Vest Landorus-T and Scald OHKO Nihilego in the rain. Protect is preferred when using LO to not take more recoil and immediately reveal your item
* Swift Swim and a Modest nature are required for Ludicolo to blast through most Pokemon. Maximum Special Attack and Speed is fine if using Waterium Z or Life Orb to maximize damage output.
* A Timid nature can be used to outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Kartana, but this does result in a significant power loss. Not recommended
*If using Assault Vest, consider either an EV spread of 84 HP / 4 Def / 116 SpA / 140 SpD / 164 Spe Modest or 84 HP / 4 Def / 212 SpA / 44 SpD / 164 Spe Calm (both EV spreads give the same stats). This spread allows Ludicolo to outspeed Modest Choice Scarf Tapu Lele in the rain while also surviving Modest Tapu Lele's Z-Psychic around 80% of the time. The HP and Defense investment gives Ludicolo the same shot of surviving Adamant Kartana's Leaf Blade as avoiding a critical hit from it, and the Special Attack EVs guarantees a OHKO on Mega Salamence with Ice Beam. Specifically say the more offensive spreads are still fine with AV
* Since Ludicolo is a rain sweeper, rain setters are a required teammate. Pelipper is a great choice since it hits Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur hard, and is able to set up Tailwind to deal with fast Choice Scarf users. Politoed is also a reasonable option due to its support movepool and having enough Speed to use a Choice Scarf.
* Ludicolo teams will need a way to deal with Mega Charizard Y and to a lesser extent, Torkoal, since the sun cripples Ludicolo's offensive capabilities. Preparing for Tyranitar and Alolan Ninetales can be a good idea too.
* Prepare for bulky Grass-types Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Mega Vensaur, since they are able to survive Ludicolo's assaults with little issue and hit it hard. Ferrothorn is especially troubling since it isn't weak to Pelipper's Hurricane.
* While Alolan Muk takes a severe amount of damage from Z-Hydro Pump, a healthy one will still survive and eat a berry to restore much of its health, so preparing for it is an especially good idea. Not sure if muk is great here since it's usage is mostly inflated from vgc teams
* Note that extremely speedy Choice Scarf Pokemon such as Kartana and Greninja are able to outspeed Ludicolo regardless of the weather.

Trick Room setters can survive attacks from Ludicolo and take away its speed advantage
 
I notice Demantoid's check hasn't been implemented, but I'll post my thoughts as well:

  • I would reorder the set to:
Hydro Pump / Scald
Giga Drain / Energy Ball
Ice Beam
Fake Out / Protect​
  • Reason being: STABs before Ice Beam coverage, and Hydro Pump first since Waterium Z is also slashed first.
  • I suggest you remove Life Orb, given that it's dropped in popularity pretty dramatically.
  • Under moves I'd note Scald as being strong with Assault Vest, as burns cover the other attacking spectrum
  • Regarding Ice Beam, add that it hits Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu that resist Ludicolo's STABs
  • Just mention a spread of Modest + 92 HP / 4 Def / 124 SpA / 124 SpD / 164 Spe with regards to Assault Vest
    • The higher HP improves bulk on both sides, and the bumped up SpA OHKOs 4 SpD Salamence
Suggested EVs
  • 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Ludicolo: 140-166 (83.8 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Ludicolo: 144-169 (86.2 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 92 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo in Psychic Terrain: 145-172 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
  • 124+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence-Mega: 172-204 (101.1 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Previous EVs
  • 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 84 HP / 4 Def Ludicolo: 140-166 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 84 HP / 4 Def Ludicolo: 144-169 (86.7 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 84 HP / 140 SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo in Psychic Terrain: 144-171 (86.7 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
  • 116+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence-Mega: 168-200 (98.8 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Post when you're done and I'll give you the stamp if Demantoid hasn't already.
 
Last edited:

Theorymon

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Ok I gave this a MASSIVE update! Not only did I implement those old checks, I updated this for Ultra Sun / Ultra Moon, and went a bit more indepth into strategy.
 
* Ludicolo is the premier rain sweeper of Battle Spot Doubles
Change to VGC 2018.

name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump /
move 2: Ice Beam
Missing Scald.

If using Assault Vest, a bulkier spread of 92 HP / 4 Def / 124 SpA / 124 SpD / 164 Spe can be considered.
I might also mention 204 HP / 20 Def / 124 SpA / 76 SpD / 84 Spe as a more consistant alternative. It drops to outspeeding positive natured base 130s in exchange for significantly more bulk. There's not that much important stuff between 200 and 214 speed, you're still outspeed by positive-natured Scarf Tapu Lele/Landorus-T even with 164 Spe EVs, and most Landorus-T won't stay in against Ludicolo regardless.

  • 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 204 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo in Psychic Terrain: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 204 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo in Electric Terrain: 75-90 (41.4 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

* If using Waterium Z, be wary of Wide Guard users such as Aegislash, who may attempt to weaken its power for their teammate.
What does this mean?
 
Last edited:

Theorymon

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Carbonific I implemented your stuff now that finals are over for me!

Also, I removed the Wide Guard mention, since that bug has been patched, so Ludicolo doesn't have to worry about that being weakened by Wide Guard anymore lol
 
Theorymon just reminding you that this is ready for GP. Though I will add one minor thing; I think Energy Ball should be the primary slash. It has ~1.5 to 1.95x the usage of Giga Drain (varies by ladder). Definitely the current dominant choice, especially for Waterium sets.
 

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add remove comments ac=add comma ap=add period rc=remove comma
[OVERVIEW]

* Ludicolo is the premier rain sweeper of VGC 2018, having just enough Speed and Special Attack to become a potent threat under gloomy skies.

* (added space) It also has above average coverage for a Water-type, being among the few to hit Tapu Fini hard thanks to its Grass-type STAB.

* Fake Out is an excellent selling point as well, since under the rain, few Pokemon can offer a faster flinch than Ludicolo.

* It even has a good Special Defense stat that, (AC) which makes Ludicolo trickier for special attackers to KO than expected for Special Attackers.

* However, Ludicolo has a poor Defense stat that makes it easy to revenge for bulky physical attackers, (AC) which lets bulky physical attackers revenge kill it easily.

* Ludicolo is highly reliant on rain to function. Without it rain support, it's hard to justify it over bulkier offensive Water-types such as Tapu Fini. (AP)

[SET]
name: Rain Sweeper
move 1: Hydro Pump / Scald
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Energy Ball / Giga Drain
move 4: Fake Out / Protect
item: Waterium Z / Assault Vest
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

* Hydro Pump is extremely powerful in the rain, especially when used with Waterium Z. Hydro Vortex coming from Ludicolo in the rain is capable of OHKOing bulky offensive threats such as Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Metagross.

* (add space) Although it doesn't take advantage of Waterium Z nearly as well, Scald is a more reliable option than Hydro Pump overall, and it's its burn chance can come in handy, especially when carrying Assault Vest.

* Ice Beam gives Ludicolo a way to OHKO Mega Salamence, Garchomp, and non Assault non-Assault Vest Landorus-T regardless of the weather, in addition to hitting Naganadel and Hydreigon hard. It's also Ludicolo's only way of dealing reasonable damage to Grass-types such as Tapu Bulu and Amoonguss.

* Energy Ball is Ludicolo's most consistently powerful Grass-type STAB attack, notably 2HKOing maximum HP Tapu Fini. However, Giga Drain is a reasonable alternative for the healing it gives Ludicolo, at the cost of power.

* Fake Out is an incredible option for flinching causing foes to flinch on Ludicolo's first turn out as long as Psychic Terrain isn't up. However, Protect is a reasonable alternative for dodging powerful attacks.

* Waterium Z gives Ludicolo a one time one-time chance to drown most Pokemon that don't resist Water-type attacks, especially if using Hydro Pump.

* Assault Vest takes advantage of Ludicolo's good Special Defense stat, letting it survive surprising attacks. If using Assault Vest, a bulkier spread of 92 HP / 4 Def / 124 SpA / 124 SpD / 164 Spe can be considered. This spread still has enough Special Attack to OHKO Mega Salamence with Ice Beam, and it can survive some powerful attacks, such as Kartana's Leaf Blade, Tapu Lele's Shattered Psyche, and Jolly Mega Kangaskhan's Double-Edge.

* Another EV spread to consider for Assault Vest Ludicolo is 204 HP / 20 Def / 124 SpA / 76 SpD / 84 Spe. This still allows Ludicolo to outspeed base 130 Speed Pokemon in the rain such as Tapu Koko and Mega Gengar, in exchange for much more bulk. For example, Life Orb Tapu Koko will fail to 2HKO this Ludicolo with Thunderbolt, and it even survives Modest Tapu Lele's Shattered Psyche.

* Life Orb gives Ludicolo a consistent power boost at the cost of its health. Most notably, this lets Ice Beam OHKO Naganadel and fast Assault Vest Landorus-T, (RC) and lets Scald OHKO Nihilego in the rain. However, the recoil makes Ludicolo easy to wear down.

* Swift Swim and a Modest nature are required for Ludicolo to blast through most Pokemon. Maximum Special Attack and Speed investment is fine if using Waterium Z or Life Orb to maximize damage output.

* A Timid nature can be used to outspeed Jolly Choice Scarf Kartana, Modest Choice Scarf Naganadel, and Timid Choice Scarf Blacephalon, but this does result in a significant power loss.

* Since Ludicolo is a rain sweeper, rain setters are a required teammate required teammates. Pelipper is a great choice, (AC) since it hits Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu hard, (RC) and is able to set up Tailwind to deal with fast Choice Scarf users.

* Politoed is a reasonable option due to its support movepool and having enough Speed its ability to viably use a Choice Scarf. Politoed can also run Focus Blast and Fightinium Z to deal severe damage to Ferrothorn, a common problem for rain teams.

* Putting Rain Dance on Pokemon such as Gothitelle or Cresselia can be an effective way to surprise opposing weather setters, though it should be a back up backup option rather than the main way of setting up rain.

* Ludicolo teams will need a way to deal with Mega Charizard Y and, (AC) to a lesser extent, Torkoal, since the sun cripples Ludicolo's offensive capabilities. Preparing for Tyranitar and Alolan Ninetales can be a good idea too.

* Ludicolo especially hates Trick Room due to its reliance on Swift Swim. Taunt users such as Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele can be useful, or even having a Trick Room user of your own such as Cresselia can help for resetting Trick Room.

* Prepare for bulky Grass-types Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, and Amoonguss, and since they are able to survive Ludicolo's assaults with little issue and hit it hard. Ferrothorn is especially troubling, (AC) since it isn't weak to Pelipper's Hurricane.

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