Announcement LC Suspect - Longtime Sunshine - Vulpix is banned

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Hi there,



No, I don't want chloro banned. I just say there are other abilitys than chloro that profit from sun, so if people really want to get rid of fast sunny sweepers, they don't need to kill everything else that relies on sun.

Also, stealth rocks are not an arguement. I expect you to defog or spin like everyone else does when running sturdy/sash, because common sense. If you do not like to go with sturdy/sash, there are other bulky revenge killers that can tank some hits.
Most common types to cover against would be grass/poison/fire.
Ok I'd to comment on this point. We established with the Cutiefly and Porygon suspect that complex bans should NEVER take priority over simple ones. (Complex bans being banning a move or ability over a Pokemon) And using any other sun based ability is essentially just plain old bad (maybe excluding Solar Power)

Also please don't be passive aggressive when refuting a counterargument. Play Nice!
 
Hi there,



No, I don't want chloro banned. I just say there are other abilitys than chloro that profit from sun, so if people really want to get rid of fast sunny sweepers, they don't need to kill everything else that relies on sun.

Also, stealth rocks are not an arguement. I expect you to defog or spin like everyone else does when running sturdy/sash, because common sense. If you do not like to go with sturdy/sash, there are other bulky revenge killers that can tank some hits.
Most common types to cover against would be grass/poison/fire.



Running 2 sunny sweepers is exactly what I wrote in my post.
You literally said in your first post " then ban the ablity Chlorophly and not Vulpix"

"You'll need to throw in a Plan-B, making it 3-3 sunny/non sunny mons". You called double chloro plan B and definitely called for banning chloro.
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Basically what Shrug said.
What people haven't been saying enough I feel though is vulpix. People are only talking about sun counters and abusers. Vulpix itself is incredibly hard to switch in to. Sun boosted F blast assuming no miss is absurd, 2hkoing a majority of the tier as well as energy ball for water types of course. If you get a flame charge off it can not be trapped by diglett as well which goes your opponents chance to stop the sun after the 2-7 turns of abuse from the chloro user/users.

Now for common soft answers ot sun. If your answer to sun is just vulla or grimer-a you have lost if they play at all wisely just at team matchup. Yes other mons and playstyles do similar things to sun as they force you to play a certain way or prep a certain way however sun has much more variety than these other playstyles and one big thing I have found with Sun rather than other playstyles. You rarely have to predict. For example bellsprout. If you have rocks up, you can just hit whatever is in front of you. There's no reason to predict as you 2hko 90% of the tier LO or not. Acidium downpour of course for vullaby and munchlax. Sure hippo counters it and is a solid mon. But if they bring double chloro for example with celebrate bulba or evio bulba you're in trouble. Not to mention once hippo is knocked it is MUCH less bulky and can get trapped by diglett or threatened out with a staryu for example.

On the other hand there are hard counters to sun, however the issue I see is these hard counters are not viable at all bar sun and are dead weight most of the time in other matches. For example chespin. Sure it gets spikes up and walls grounds. But say you run into fight spam. Chespin is doing very little in that battle. Let's say you run into standard balance vulla+star+onix with fighting mon, foongus, filler. Chespin again does nothing to that team. Other mons like lax and a-vulpix and hippo have more use but lax makes you super threatened to fighting types and snub is chipped and spritz is stopped completely by mag and foongus which are very common and incredible in the meta rn. Hippo once knocked gets rocks up and fires off an EQ or two but is threatened by Star and say that star is analytic. There are very little switch ins in the tier that are not 2hkoed so again.

Idk given that it is almost midnight and have a big conference meet tomorrow I'm tired and may have not fully explained etc. I was rather trying to give scenarios for this meta as I've found I'm better at that than fully explaining stuff that has already been explained. That and I'm still unsure myself. I'm about 65-35 towards ban rn but that could easily change. Just look at Corporal Levi's and Shrug's posts cause those are the posts I most agree with and feel were amazingly written as a whole. Till then 067jox is an inspiration and ItzViper482 You made reqs. Gimmie the team fren. You know you want the mantyke jesus squad
 
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Ok I'd to comment on this point. We established with the Cutiefly and Porygon suspect that complex bans should NEVER take priority over simple ones. (Complex bans being banning a move or ability over a Pokemon)
Ok, np with that. In this case, I still think it would be better to suspect the sunny sweepers that people have problems with instead of vulpix.

And using any other sun based ability is essentially just plain old bad (maybe excluding Solar Power)
Solar Power is actually decent. If you do some testing with Charmander and Helioptile on scarf(fast sweeper) or specs (wallbreak), you'll see what I mean.
Meanwhile I would agree on Harvest beeing pretty useless in LC, sunny weather also boosts fire type attacks by 50% and weakens water type attacks by 50%, which you can use to your advantage. It prevents freezing status condition and gives certain healing moves like morning sun or synthesis a heal of 66.6%. It's really all about how you make use of certain tactical advantages. Sun is more than just a chlorophyl enabler, although chlorophyl might be the most known thing around.

You literally said in your first post " then ban the ablity Chlorophly and not Vulpix"

"You'll need to throw in a Plan-B, making it 3-3 sunny/non sunny mons". You called double chloro plan B and definitely called for banning chloro.
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It looks like there is a huge misunderstanding on your part.
I have stated that I don't want any ban in the first place.
If people *still* decide on a ban, *then* they should ban anything else than vulpix.
I hope you understand it now. No offense or anything.
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Vulpix itsself is not very dangerous with modest nature 15 SpA max.
 
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Vulpix itsself is not very dangerous with modest nature 15 SpA max.
Hi i rarely post in these threads but vulpix can totally be a threat by itself. Literally only fires can safely switch in on a vulpix due to the fire blast + solarbeam / energy ball combo cos it literally has the ability to 2hko everything but fires. Only thing that even remotely holds vulpix back is its speed, in which flame charge compensates for. Not to mention will-o-wisp cripples mons making it easier for sun sweepers to get set up.

idk might be just me tho
 
just gonna throw out there solar power is really bad and that nothing wants to take an overheat from vulpix in the sun. I'll edit this post later with some actual thoughts.
I just stomped a Bellsprout-Ponyta sunny team with my Solar Power team.
Just gonna throw out there solar power is really good. (i tested it, and it destroys stuff)
I hope you edit your post later and add something to your claims.

Hi i rarely post in these threads but vulpix can totally be a threat by itself. Literally only fires can safely switch in on a vulpix due to the fire blast + solarbeam / energy ball combo cos it literally has the ability to 2hko everything but fires. Only thing that even remotely holds vulpix back is its speed, in which flame charge compensates for. Not to mention will-o-wisp cripples mons making it easier for sun sweepers to get set up.

idk might be just me tho
Fire blast has a 85% accuracy, so does Will-o-wisp.
You cannot always rely on low-accurary moves to hit.

Also, it has no "ability to 2hko everything but fires".
The point is that Vulpix has a 50 SpA base, resulting in 14 (15 with modest) SpA, which is rather lackluster.

A high attack power from Sunny Weather helps out there, but only with fire type attacks.
Special defensive mons with eviolite such as Tentacool or Mantyke tank all the "op" fire moves. Working with type resistance reduces the damage to a tankable level, and when we are talking about Overheat: that move reduces your SpA by 2 stages (= 1 use,then switch) and "only" has a 90% accuracy aswell.

Non-fire moves will not be compensated and have to cucumber around with 14/15 SpA.
Also, Vulpix *does not learn* Solar Beam.
And Energy Ball without Stab is nothing to be afraid of, really. (except for Onix, there it's a nice-to-have)

Here is your Sun+Overheat calc with Vulpix, compared to my Solar Power Charmander, both hitting on my eviolite Tentacool:
252+ SpA Vulpix Overheat vs. 116 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool in Sun: 6-7 (27.2 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charmander Overheat vs. 116 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool in Sun: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
I don't mean to sound rude here, but testing something on ladder and destroying something does not mean that it is good or viable. I could take swablu/nosepass/gible out to low ladder and destroy, but that does not mean that those mons are very good or viable. Also, winning one game against Bellsprout/Ponyta sun core does not mean its magically better than this. You have to be able to consistently win with them in order to claim that, so come back with like 10 or so replays showing me this and I'll concede that Solar Power is good. Solar Power has a lot of problems, the main one being that none of the users are very fast. The fastest one is Charmander and Helioptile, which both hit 17 speed I believe, which leaves it tieing or outsped by a good portion of the metagame. What does this mean? This means that it can probably get 1 or 2 attacks off at best before it dies. Additionally, this speed tier leaves it trapped by Diglett which will cut your sweep off short. Now Charmander can get Flame Charge which is nice I guess, but you are still very weak to priority. Charmander and Helioptile are not very bulky, and will die off to most forms of priority such as Mach Punch or Sucker Punch after a turn out in the sun. The bottom line is, Solar Power has proven itself to be very very meh when there are better Sun abusers out there like Bellsprout and Bulbasaur.

Now to respond to your arguments on Vulpix. First of all here, Fire Blast is not the only move that Vulpix can run. It can also run a devastating sun boosted Overheat that deals tons of damage even with Vulpixes mediocre Spa stat as brought up by Coconut above. But even though Fire Blast has low accuracy, Fire Blast can still be annoying to switch into. 85% is far from being very inaccurate, and will put a large chunk into anything that switches in. You keep saying "50 Spa base", but you forget that Sun boosts Fire-type attacks to be incredibly powerful. Additionally, Sun does not only boost Fire-type attacks, it also weakens Water-type attacks and makes Solar Beam into a 1 turn move. Water-type attacks being weakened in very helpful as it allows mons like Diglett, Ponyta, and Vulpix live Defensive Staryu's Scald. Solar Beam is obviously a very powerful move that hits very hard with its 120 BP. Finally your point on Energy Ball without Stab is nothing to be afraid of doesn't make sense at all, since it makes Rocks- and Water-types somewhat fear into switching in on Vulpix. Thats literally what coverage is. Saying that is like saying Ice Punch is useless on Timburr because it only hits Foongus.

Finally, I want to quote a portion of Nineages post from earlier.

Third, this is kind of in the OP, but please don't try and argue about whether Vulpix is broken all by itself as an attacker. If Chlorophyll didn't exist, Vulpix would not be a broken Pokemon, and I don't think anyone is contesting this. Vulpix is being suspected because it is the most essential component of a sun team that it would make sense to ban. Yes, the suspect is Vulpix, but what we are trying to analyze here is the support Vulpix provides, not the mon in a vacuum. Basically, please discuss sun as an archetype, not how Vulpix does if you just slap it onto a team with 5 random other Pokemon.

tl;dr Please make this thread constructive discussion guys!

I swear half of yall didnt read any of the earlier posts in this thread or the op. This is basically a Sun suspect. Vulpix may be pretty good by itself, but that isn't really what any of this discussion was about.
 
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So, I would like to react to what you just said, Hanswurst.

I don't know if you calc'd the damages you are speaking of, but they actually are kinda great.

196+ SpA Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee in Sun: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Spritzee gets 2HKO by modest Vulpix. Well, of course, the Timid nature is by far more played (but even then, vulpix has a 12% of chances to 2HKO, and it becomes 100% with rocks)

For energy ball now:
196 SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 16-20 (64 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Chinchou gets 2HKO'd by energy ball. With eviolite it can avoid the 2HKO but once again, rocks can help.

So as you can see, Vulpix definitely doesn't have many switch-ins. Even Spritzee, one of the bulkiest mons in LC (at least when it comes to spdef) gets 2HKO with rocks. So yes, only fire types can really switch-in in front of Vulpix. And Munchlax/Lickitung. But that doesn't really change the problem. Vulpix really has few S-I. And anyway, the real problem with Vulpix is his Ability. Not his power.


The problem with solar power actually is the quality of the mons that have access to it.
I mean, if I'm not mistaking, they are three:

- Charmander: lacks speed and coverage. You could say that it is kind of similar to Vulpix, but Vulpix has the huge advantage of drought. Salamander won't be able to work alone. Add to that the fact that his mediocre speed makes it RK'd by anything and you get a kinda bad mon to use... Even though it's cute)
-Helioptile: Same problem with the speed: it gets RK'd by a lot of things. Doesn't actually take so much advantage of the sun because it doesn't boost any of his attacks (if we except the solar power's boost ofc) and lowers surf's power. So Helioptile only has his stabs as good attacks, which isn't that good (it makes him kinda easy to predict)
-Sunskern: lol.

As you can see, Solar power is a pretty bad Ability in LC, not because of the ability itself but because of the mons that have access to it.
(And anyway, having a *2 boost in speed is by far better than having a *1,5 in SpAtk while losing life each turn. Just look at BW OU: if I'm not mistaking, Chlorophyl was played when Drought was allowed. Not Solar power.)

I hope you understand now why Solar power is a bad ability in LC.

EDIT: Sigh, I got outsped :c

EDIT2: I see you added calcs comparing Charmander and Vulpix powers... but there are some problems in your comparison.

- Choice specs is overall a bad item in LC. You don't really make much more damage than with a LO and you are choiced, so you lack versatility. That's a problem and it becomes an even bigger problem if you consider the fact that you play sun: losing one turn to switch-out when your opponent sends out something that will eat your hit without too much trouble/ RK you/ etc is a big problem as you lose one turn of sun each time you have to do so. By the way, as your Charmander doesn't have eviolite and loses 1/8 of his life each turn, I think it will easily be rk'd by your opponent, even just with priority.
- I think it's not that logical to compare these mons like that. I mean, Vulpix role won't be to deal damage. It's major role will be to set-up the sun. And if you are able to deal damage while setting the sun, then yup, that's cool. But that's not the major role.
- It is already hard for Vulpix to switch-in, even though it just has to come in to set the sun. And you would like to play Vulpix AND another fire-type mon with average speed (17 speed isn't that good for a sweeper. And as you seem to play your Charmander Modest, it would even be 16), mediocre bulk, losing 1/8 of his life per turn AND which must be able to land a hit to be useful ? I think it will be a bit difficult to make this strategy work... at least if your opponent is a good player and doesn't let you switch around as you want.
 
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I was also discussing Vulpix and Sun. No need to delete the entire post, really.
With "patience to read", you would have understood why I talked about SP as an option for Wallbreak.

To recover some arguements about Vulpix/Sun;

-Overheat gives you -2 SpA. So it's a -use 1 time, then switch and lose 1 round of sun due to the switch- matter.
It also only got 90%, better than 85% but still not neglectable that it will miss sometimes.
-Fire Blast's 85% is actually very inaccurate. The thing is that you *can not predict* when it is going to hit and when it is going to miss.
It is taking a calculated risk. The upside of that risk is getting a huge damage boost from the sunny weather.
The downside of that risk is missing the fire blast/overheat and getting pancaked in return and down is your sun setup.
You can not rely on that alone.
Also, Vulpix does not get Solar Beam.
Idk why I have to write this in every post.
Then the water point; Rocks & Ground still do 100%.
*enter the obvious Diglet arguement here*( Arena Trapped Vulpix = dead Vulpix = strategy failed)
Vulpix Energy Ball, as I also mentioned before, doesn't Ohko things without 4x weakness. (Onix dies, the rest gets to live)
And the statement "makes XYZ types fear to switch in"; every pokemon does that.

I don't really run into Spritzee that often. Nor Chinchou. Also, 12% chance to 2HKO = 88% chance to 3HKO. I wouldn't speculate on 12%.
For rocks, use defog. Rocks are not an arguement.
I expect you to use defog/rapid spin.
If you lose the field control, then it is a situation brought by your own (lack of) actions, so you cannot blame that on Vulpix in my honest opinion.

Vulpix has enought switch-ins.
Use Tentacool for example. Great mon, lots of options and it can spin.
Munchlax also tanks away Vulpix and get's it with EQ if you don't switch.
Eviolite + type resistance and/or good special defense stats make for switch-ins.
Also, you sometimes need to throw in a sacrifice instead of switching in. That gives you the option to throw in someting faster.

The main point about sun is that it is a temporary advantage that can be stalled and played around.
You KNOW your opponent needs to refresh the sunny weather.
You KNOW that once you got rid of Vulpix, the entire strategy falls with it.
Sunny weather is something that you can predict and calculate, and the rest is teambuilding.
Having a staller is as important as having a defogger/spinner.

Common ways of dealing with sun teams are Diglet, Tentacool and mons that cover the most common types fire/poison/grass. Mons with sturdy/sash can take on sunny sweepers.
Especially since HP Fire gets a boost in the sun.

Alolan-Vulpix does a great job in setting counter-weather.
Nothing more fun than actually switching in Alolan-Vulpix when your opponent clicks at solar beam.
 
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To recover some arguements about Vulpix/Sun;

-Overheat gives you -2 SpA. So it's a -use 1 time, then switch and lose 1 round of sun due to the switch- matter.
It also only got 90%, better than 85% but still not neglectable that it will miss sometimes.
-Fire Blast's 85% is actually very inaccurate. The thing is that you *can not predict* when it is going to hit and when it is going to miss.
It is taking a calculated risk. The upside of that risk is getting a huge damage boost from the sunny weather.
The downside of that risk is missing the fire blast/overheat and getting pancaked in return and down is your sun setup.
You can not rely on that alone.
Draco meteor also gives a -2 SpA. And yet, it is played on almost every special-hitting dragon-type in OU. The -2 is annoying, yes. But the goal is absolutely not to make damage several times. You just want to break through your opponent's team, and to do so, you have to hit hard. And that's exactly what Overheat allows you to do. It's not that important to have a -2 in SpA if your opponent doesn't have anything in his team to take the hit, cause you will then make one KO.
For Fire Blast, now... You have more chances to hit two Fire Blast in a row than to hit one Focus Blast... Ok, focus blast is very inaccuracte but still, it is really often played. And anyway, if you must count on your opponent's misses to win, then there is a problem.
And anyway, as I also said before -and I also have the impression I will be forced to write it several times before it's understood- Vulpix itself is not the real problem. Yes, it can hit hard, but the real problem is his ability which can offer several turns of sweeping to his mates, and they won't be stopped as in ORAS by the threat of Fletchling's acrobatics.

Also, Vulpix does not get Solar Beam.
Idk why I have to write this in every post.
Then the water point; Rocks & Ground still do 100%.
*enter the obvious Diglet arguement here*( Arena Trapped Vulpix = dead Vulpix = strategy failed)
Vulpix Energy Ball, as I also mentioned before, doesn't Ohko things without 4x weakness. (Onix dies, the rest gets to live)
And the statement "makes XYZ types fear to switch in"; every pokemon does that.
Never said that Vulpix learns Solar Beam and to be honest I didn't see anybody saying that since you first said that Vuplix doesn't learn SolarBeam.
Anyway.
The fact that Vulpix can 2HKO the rock/water mons is actually important. Really important. To be honest, it's almost as if it could OHKO, because it means that you won't be able to switch safely with water/rock-types which would almost have been the only switch-ins to stabbed-fire-type sun-boosted moves (apart from other fire types, as we said before).

I don't really run into Spritzee that often. Nor Chinchou. Also, 12% chance to 2HKO = 88% chance to 3HKO. I wouldn't speculate on 12%.
For rocks, use defog. Rocks are not an arguement.
I expect you to use defog/rapid spin.
If you lose the field control, then it is a situation brought by your own (lack of) actions, so you cannot blame that on Vulpix in my honest opinion.
Chinchou and Spritzee are both top-tier mons in LC. Tentacool is almost never played. That mon isn't bad by itself, but it lack recovery and that's a problem when you compare it to staryu. And anyway, if sun forces you to run Tentacool even though Staryu should almost always be better, then sun is a problem in the meta.
For rocks, you actually don't always have the choice. Sometimes, the rocks have been placed, you have KO'd the rock setter and then come Vulpix. The thing is that because of Vulpix' power + rocks, you won't be able to send Spritzee safely. And that's a problem too.

The main point about sun is that it is a temporary advantage that can be stalled and played around.
You KNOW your opponent needs to refresh the sunny weather.
You KNOW that once you got rid of Vulpix, the entire strategy falls with it.
Sunny weather is something that you can predict and calculate, and the rest is teambuilding.
Having a staller is as important as having a defogger/spinner.

Common ways of dealing with sun teams are Diglet, Tentacool and mons that cover the most common types fire/poison/grass. Mons with sturdy/sash can take on sunny sweepers.
Especially since HP Fire gets a boost in the sun.

Alolan-Vulpix does a great job in setting counter-weather.
Nothing more fun than actually switching in Alolan-Vulpix into a bulbasaur that was preparing solar beam.
Imagine that sun lasts 40 turns. Would you say that, because it is a "temporary advantage" it doesn't matter ?
Of course, you will tell me that sun doesn't last 40 turns so who cares. But I will answer you "and if 8 turns were already enough ? Wouldn't it already be as if it lasted 40 turns ?".
So yes, sun is temporary. But as sun teams are very offensive, 8 turns already are really long and hard to "stall". And anyway, you will have to KO Vulpix soon enough, because it will come again and have 8 more turns of sun if you don't.
Oh, and there are other sun setters than Vulpix (even though they are far less good).
By the way, if Vulpix dies, it is true that it will be difficult for you to have sun again. But don't forget that, if Vulpix dies, you still have 7 turns of sun. 7 turns that might allow you to weaken your opponent's team so much that you won't need sun anymore to win.
 

I doubt it 2hkos decent water/rock types. Staryu yes, even tho I would disagree with that beeing better than Tentacool. What is recovery worth when you take more damage than you can recover? Meanwhile, Tentacool takes 4 hits of Vulpix. Spins, sets up T-spikes, gets scald, gets haze.
If people don't want to use solutions that would fix their problem, then it's their own fault tbh, just like people who don't run any defog/spin and complain about rocks/hazards beeing broken. The same thing with Diglett- Arena Trap+Sash, can switch in Vulpix, survives, traps, and Earthquake.
If your opponent really selected a move instead of switching Vulpix out, that's about it with the sunny weather.

Yes, hazards are there to break sash/sturdy, so it's important to have control over the field.
Using taunt/magic coat can do alot. I just trolled someone with sewaddle. It gets Chloro and magic coat, bouncing back the stuff of my opponent, placing a friendly sticky web to deal with bulbasaur/bellsprout. Opponent ragequitted.
Prankster taunts are also great to have.

Also, some stallers use protect to stall more turns. Quite decent to get around any kind of weather faster.

And about the inacurate/drawback moves; yes, people use them alot, but stuff like draco meteor and overheat will result in a switch-out and you can use that to switch out yourself or predix the switch and get a nice pickoff or do some setup boost/sub/hazards. People also complain alot when this stuff misses.

And for the chloro mons: Bellsprout is pretty decent when using Growth in the sun. Still requires a setup, and unless you are completely unaware, you can make counterplays.
I mean you see the team of your opponent, you know what's going on, and when to intercept stuff. One key point would be not to get worn out.
Some opponents speculate on you running out of options and then they run their sunny sweepers late in the game. So beeing carefull with your checks is a give

I recently came arcross a decent baton-pass team of torchic-nummel that did quite well vs Bellsprout+Ponyta in the sun.
Boosts can easily negate the power of sunny teams.

Trick room does well against Chloro. Revert speed, sub, boost, win.
 
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All the types of teams your are speaking of here are quite gimmicks. I mean, trick room in LC is a gimmick. Tentacool isn't much better than a gimmick either (doesn't have any real offensive pressure, his only real advantage on Staryu is to have the ability to "counter" Fighting-types, but Timburr wins the 1v1 and Mienfoo will just pivot/knock off and wear it down, and I won't even speak about Croagunk which can just destroy Tentacool). A baton-pass with Torchic and Numel probably is gimmick too. Sewaddle isn't good in this meta either. At least, that's not a mon played very often. That's not what the meta is made off. The meta is made of "good" teams, and the real point of this suspect is to know if these "good teams" can handle sun reasonably or not. The only good example you gave there was Diglett. But Diglett can't switch-in in front of Vulpix, even if it is sashed because of flame charge. And losing Diglett without dealing any damage probably is the worse idea to have. So no, you can't just switch-in on Vulpix.

Bellsprout doesn't actually need a set-up that much. LO Weather ball in sun or SolarBeam already are amazingly powerful. And for Prankster... The most common user is Cottonee... Will you really stay with Cottonee in front of a Poison-type to use Taunt ? I personally don't think it's a very good idea...

tl;dr: Don't use things that aren't played as examples of things that can handle sun. It will just show how centralizing sun is, as you are forced to run something that you would never run otherwise.
 
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GOAO

Banned deucer.
ok i'll try to go though some of sun wins in SPL
OP x Madoka: madoka got p lucky with the miss/crit, op would've been able to stall for more turns with less risk if he'd successfully taken down the opposing foo or kept his own alive. not to mention madoka missplayed as always but not my point lolo
ict x star: sun lost but shouldve won so yea. star had it 105% with aipom but he got shut down by 15 def foo (not very common).
levi x op: op had a near guaranteed win before choking (not sure if you wanna call it a choke cause he didnt know bulba was growth but yh he had the game won).
star x zoro: zoro's team was weak to lots of things, his FC ponyta check was nohp nodef timburr, his z tot pump check was the X button, even FC vulpix itself could be a big problem. what i'm trying to say is that his team was very matchup based and he paid for it, not really sun's fault.
kingler x zf: kingler had it before zf got lucky with freeze + tie.
for most of the games, sun wasnt REALLY the problem. the one unwinnable game at matchup was zoro's but then again his team was matchup based and he got an unlucky matchup.

for most of the games, sun wasnt REALLY the problem. the one unwinnable game at matchup was zoro's but then again his team was matchup based and he got an unlucky matchup. I think this highlights how sun is much stronger in theory than in practice, and timer does definitely come into play in most matchups, because it makes outpredicting sun more rewarding than, for example, outpredicting a set up shellder.
 
I doubt it 2hkos decent water/rock types. Staryu yes, even tho I would disagree with that beeing better than Tentacool. What is recovery worth when you take more damage than you can recover? Meanwhile, Tentacool takes 4 hits of Vulpix. Spins, sets up T-spikes, gets scald, gets haze.
If people don't want to use solutions that would fix their problem, then it's their own fault tbh, just like people who don't run any defog/spin and complain about rocks/hazards beeing broken. The same thing with Diglett- Arena Trap+Sash, can switch in Vulpix, survives, traps, and Earthquake.
If your opponent really selected a move instead of switching Vulpix out, that's about it with the sunny weather.

Yes, hazards are there to break sash/sturdy, so it's important to have control over the field.
Using taunt/magic coat can do alot. I just trolled someone with sewaddle. It gets Chloro and magic coat, bouncing back the stuff of my opponent, placing a friendly sticky web to deal with bulbasaur/bellsprout. Opponent ragequitted.
Prankster taunts are also great to have.

Also, some stallers use protect to stall more turns. Quite decent to get around any kind of weather faster.

And about the inacurate/drawback moves; yes, people use them alot, but stuff like draco meteor and overheat will result in a switch-out and you can use that to switch out yourself or predix the switch and get a nice pickoff or do some setup boost/sub/hazards. People also complain alot when this stuff misses.

And for the chloro mons: Bellsprout is pretty decent when using Growth in the sun. Still requires a setup, and unless you are completely unaware, you can make counterplays.
I mean you see the team of your opponent, you know what's going on, and when to intercept stuff. One key point would be not to get worn out.
Some opponents speculate on you running out of options and then they run their sunny sweepers late in the game. So beeing carefull with your checks is a give

I recently came arcross a decent baton-pass team of torchic-nummel that did quite well vs Bellsprout+Ponyta in the sun.
Boosts can easily negate the power of sunny teams.

Trick room does well against Chloro. Revert speed, sub, boost, win.
Time to respond. Hello there. Welcome to LC fren. Keep in mind that just because it works on ladder against a couple of low ranking people, does not necessarily mean it's viable. For example I have my first "heat" team ever consisting of counter sash zorua+memento to SD pass to z-rain dance physical anie/LO physical abra+max hp gambit diglett+clamp explosion bulky shellder. I have had solid success with actually winning a room tour and getting to like 1300 with the team but that does not mean it works. You can use z-celebrate squirtle and have OP tell you squirtle is a great mon, but it's not and OP is a lier just like my dad.

TR rn is not viable (Sorry Fille and Elec.) but it is true. Mons lose very important coverage if they run protect. Which means you can't hit another mon so if you don't run into sun and say you have an abra with hp fight, gleam, psychic, and let's say you put protect over energy ball; standard low ladder set. Spdef Bray walls you now, and gets free stamina boosts off. Mons like chou also don't die after rocks, getting juice back up and allowing it to t-wave/scald->sucker you and KO.

I agree with your torchic point as LO torchic is actually ridiculously good rn as a late game cleaner. However not as much of a fan myself of curse or SD pass, but it is an option I will respect. It is harder to pull off though.

Magic coat is not viable bar AG Gen 6 cause Darkrai Spam and this is LC. Taunt has very few viable users. Mons viable I can think of. Like aipom, foo, onix, that's about it honestly.

Neither of these should be your answer to hazards though when there are incredible spinners rn in the metagame; Staryu and Kabuto being the best 2 imo

Bellsprout in sun hardly evers run growth due to its ability to 2hko the meta bar lax. There is no reason when options like sleep powder and knock off are there. Sure it was good in XY, but just run growth or celebrate bulba if you want stat boosts rn imo. Unless you like switch it up, go like bulky evio growth sprout+z-poison or z-celebrate bulba as vulla bait.

As for missing moves yes. But that is approximately a 6:1 ratio in terms of theoretical hit:miss

Can't trap pix cause of flame charge which has been said couple of times which is what makes sun over the edge rn imo. Essentially 16 sun turns min if you play it right.

And btw energy ball 2hkoes or ohkoes every viable rock/water/ground type in the meta rn. Don't feel like doing all the calcs. But mentions to onix, kabuto, staryu, chou, bray, drilbur, corphish, diglett. All 2hkoed with rocks up of course for onix sturdy so ain't no switching those in to deal with pix.

That's about it. If you need advice or suggestions or w/e there's a question forum fren. A little more evidence would be very nice if you plan on posting than I trolled somebody on ladder. I know it's fun, SO much fun sometimes. But like maybe some calcs, replays, or cute pictures of the pokemon would be rad. [:
 
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Hey guys, I just came across a very good poke of an opponent:

Slowpoke: Regenerator (heals by switching out), gets slack off & calm mind

Test done with Modest Vulpix, Timid Vulpix does even less damage:

196+ SpA Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-14 (35.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

196+ SpA Vulpix Overheat vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 8-9 (28.5 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

And that thing heals when switching out due to Regenerator ability.
Ofc, the 6.25% crit chance has to be calculated in, but I wouldn't bet on random hax in competitive battles.

Meanwhile, Solar Beam Bellsprout still deals with it. Not ohko, but enough to bypass the Regenrator heal.
196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 20-26 (71.4 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Compare this to my Tentacool;
196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
If you guys still think Sunny Teams would be broken, I recommend suspecting Bellsprout instead of Vulpix.

I also came across a very interessting Magnemite with Sturdy+Berry Juice+Recycle+Endure, with Endure helping against stealth rocks when Stury would not trigger. Had HP Fire (which is boosted in the sun), rip Bulbasaur. :/

The next thing I'll look into will be Vegetarian mons who just eat the Solar Beam. Trying to find some viable setup there.
The thing is that not every opponent runs sunny teams, so the mons I use have to be viable against basically everything.
Tentacool does a very good job so far.
 
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The examples you are giving here are better than the previous ones, but they still are far from being perfect.
Slowpoke isn't a really bad mon, but it has competition: even though it has access to Regenerator and is a Psychic-type, which can help against Fighting-types, it still has a lot of downsides. First, the Psychic type gives him a weakness to Knock off, which is more or less used by all the Fighting-types of the meta. And Slowpoke counts a lot on the Eviolite to tank hits. It also has a lot of competition in Staryu, which is far more unpredictable and has access to Rapid Spin + a great speed. Slowpoke also lacks power as you can see:


116 SpA Slowpoke Psychic vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

It's good to be able to tank Vulpix. But it is better if you can really threaten it, and that's not really Slowpoke's case.
Anyway, as I said before, the point of this topic isn't to find answers in unusual mons. The goal is to see if Vulpix is too good for the meta or not.
(Same for the others: Magnemite Recycle + Endure really is classic and it isn't played with HP fire anyway. The Scarfed one yes. But on the Sturdy juice, you need both of your stabs. And for Sap sipper... eh... Same thing as for Solar Power: no good mon has access to this ability. And anyway, apart from Goomy, they are usually destroyed by Weather ball)

Well, anyway, now that I have responded, I will give my own opinion: For me, the thing that pushes sun over the edge is the fact that even the "counters" to these teams will actually fear something from the mon they are supposed to counter. Let me show you:

Bellsprout: Vullaby gets 2HKO by Acid Downpour + Sludge bomb. Sashed Abra falls asleep due to Sleep Powder. Same for Magnemite by the way. And also for Pawniard.
Priority users (Doduo/Meowth for instance) won't do that much if Bellprout has the Eviolite. And anyway, Doduo won't be able to kill.

Bulbasaur: Pretty much the same as Bellsprout. It doesn't run Acid Downpour usually but Celebrate can really destroy things. And Growth is even more violent.
The main difference is probably that Bulbasaur usually is bulkier than Bellsprout, so it's even harder to kill it just with priority.

Oddish: Twinkle tackle is annoying, and even though it is quite a known set now, it still doesn't have many switch-ins.

Vulpix: Now we're getting at the point. That mon has access to a lot of usable moves. Flame charge, Fire Blast, Overheat, Energy Ball, but also Hypnosis, Quick attack which can allow to break sash/sturdy and make the sweep easier for Bellsprout for instance, even disable. If you keep all these moves on mind, you see there really are few safe switch-ins. And about the fact that it's easy to rk it... unless your mon is Diglett, your opponent won't be forced to stay in. To be honest, each time I play against sun, that's the main fear I have: that the opponent conserves Vulpix to come later in the match to get 8 more turns of sun.
By the way, about diglett... It can't switch-in on Vulpix even if it is Sashed because of flame charge (or Fire Blast + Quick attack, even though it might be a bit gimmick compared to Flame charge). So your opponent will never be "forced" to stay with Vulpix (at least, at the beginning of the match). And that means that, if he plays well, he can get at least 16 turns of Sun. This is imo far too much to stall with protect or even with anything else (apart from Munchlax, maybe) because of the power of the sun sweepers.


That is why I will probably vote BAN.
 
I don't know why people are saying that Vulpix is a "threat" outside of providing sun. It's like there are two separate, completely opposite conversations going on here in the LC fourm.

We get this in this thread here:

Hi i rarely post in these threads but vulpix can totally be a threat by itself.
Vulpix itself is incredibly hard to switch in to. Sun boosted F blast assuming no miss is absurd, 2hkoing a majority of the tier as well as energy ball for water types of course.
And yet this is going on next door:

I don't think either Pokemon is worthy of A- without the support of the other (Vulpix does have some viability as a wallbreaker on its own, but its not A- rank, while Bellsprout is just utter ass), so I think the most sensible thing is to move them both up to A-
Vulpix does have some sets like Life Orb and Choice Scarf to fit onto general offense outside of Sun, whereas Bellsprout is almost entirely dependent on Vulpix to succeed. However, non-support Vulpix sets suffer as standalone Pokemon due to how easily forced out they are due to terrible bulk and only decent Speed, coupled with how punishing being forced out is to them because of the weakness to hazards. We shouldn't take these alternative Vulpix sets into account for the same reason we don't take into account a Scarf set for Snivy's ranking (though less extreme); they're pretty much C+ level sets, and aren't worth considering for a nomination to A- or A.
It confuses and frustrates me, and it is focusing too much on Vulpix. Talk about SUN please.

Something that should be discussed more is Hail Scarfers, which can still check Sun teams as well as ever. We even now have Vulpix-A as a scarfer which may be interesting because it hits more than 21 speed. Amaura, Snover, and Vulpix are good mons in their own right. Amaura in particular can switch into Bellsprout with little problems and threaten your average Sun team between Ice Move - Thunderbolt - Ancient Power. Just something to actually make this a decent post.

Again, I'm still on the fence, but I was lurking this thread and just got annoyed and felt the need to post.
 

Gummy

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I was going to wait until I got reqs to write a post, but I'm pretty sure that's not happening so here I am!!

The thing with this suspect is that sun is an entire team archetype, and that you can't build WITH it, rather entirely around it. So some people see that as a reason why it shouldn't be banned. Some people want sun to stay because "if you play well you can still win". Look at Drifloon and Swirlix: beatable! But stupid and banworthy. I think this is sun's case. Is it impossible to beat? No. Is it inherently broken? No. Does it rely on RNG or take away competitive element? You'd immediately say "no", but sometimes there are straight up unwinnable matchups for teams that are good otherwise when it comes to sun. You can't haze or whirlwind or roar away the threat, because as someone else said that I don't want to dig through text for, Bellsprout/Bulbasaur/etc aren't present for their own setup. Vulpix is a weak link, but keeping it alive is stupidly easy and switching to Bellsprout is as well. Once Bellsprout is in, and Vulpix is still alive, it may as well be gg right there--very few mons can revenge kill at this point, and those that can are generally unviable (meowth, skitty, etc). Needing to run around for EIGHT TURNS for the sun to wear off is difficult when you only have 6 team members, and you'll probably want at least half of them alive to actually win. Of course, you could say, "well, just prevent the vulpix from living and setting up sun twice!" but when the job is to keep vulpix alive and that job is accomplished by literally just switching, that becomes significantly harder. Diglett isn't even terribly reliable, since pix can just Flame Charge or even Quick Attack if dig is weakened enough.

This isn't even getting into Poisonium Z. With the combination of Weather Ball, Solar Beam, Sludge Bomb/Acid Downpour, and any combo of a 4th move (growth, sleep powder, etc), literally no "sun check" switches in unless it sucks. What I mean by that is that, yes, Grimer-A switches into Solar Beam, but what if the sun user looks at your team and thinks, "well, OHKOing their wincon Staryu right now is tempting, but since i respect my opponent to have half a brain, I'm assuming he's going to switch to the only mon on his team that tanks a sbeam, and i am going to click weather ball". And when I say "if it sucks" I mean that Hippopotas hard counters sun but it SUX.

at this point though im just rehashing points and saying things that aren't in order and my opinion is: ban sun, it's beatable and probably will be the most controversial ban if we do it, but its unpredictability (for the most part) and ability to beat its checks is 2good.
 

Coconut

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Hello and welcome to the Little Cup forum, where everything is random and nothing makes sense.

That being said, I'm going to briefly explain to you why this looks like this as briefly as I can. Consider the idea that other people have different opinions on the matter of the suspect. No, not the banning of chlorophyll vs vulpix, more on the vein of should Vulpix be banned or not. Corporal Levi is an avid believer that Vulpix is not broken, hence his posts would reflect that Vulpix is not very good. On the other hand, many of the other people that you quoted would most likely be voting ban in a suspect test, and as a result, believe that sun is very straining on the current metagame. As for the use of viability rankings in your suspect post, I find that a lot of people do not seem to understand the purpose of the viability rankings, so I'm going to explain, extremely briefly, one of the most important things that the viability rankings attempts to frame, that being splashability. While you might be familiar with the concept, when a Pokemon is splashable, it means that it fits onto most, if not all teams very easily and somehow improves the team. This is what separates the things in S and A+ from the things in lower A to higher B. Vulpix and to a similar degree Bellsprout are not mons that are easily thrown onto a team. Vulpix does not function nearly as well without things that run Chlorophyll. That is why it is being suspected: the amount of support that it provides. Bellsprout on the other hand, requires this support to function properly, and without is a below average pokemon on a team. The suspect is on Vulpix; not sun. While I agree that more discussion should be taking place by more members of the community, I think the point you are trying to make is a little misguided.

By the way, Alolapix should not run a scarf set, the other setters just do that plain better as they both hit 14 speed; all they need to outspeed the unboosted metagame. Alolapix's best attribute is the ability to set Aurora Veil and support it's teammates with Light Clay, which provides extra turns.

Hope that helps, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask me by shooting me a VM or messaging me on PS!
 
I get this is different from the VR, but the discrepancy between the two (Vulpix moving down because it is not a great stand alone mon, and here saying that it is one of the best wallbreakers) is a little silly.

The suspect is on Vulpix; not sun. While I agree that more discussion should be taking place by more members of the community, I think the point you are trying to make is a little misguided.
That's fine - but doesn't what you say here contradict this below?

Because of the overbearing presence of Sun teams in today's metagame, the LC council has decided the playstyle deserves to be properly examined in the form of a suspect.​

Yes, the suspect is Vulpix, but what we are trying to analyze here is the support Vulpix provides, not the mon in a vacuum. Basically, please discuss sun as an archetype, not how Vulpix does if you just slap it onto a team with 5 random other Pokemon

It still really isn't clear what this suspect is from being a lurker. Is it a combination of Vulpix being an ok/decent mon by itself while supporting other threats? Is is the Sun playstyle as a whole? Is it really about Bellsprout and Cholorphyll sweepers?

The first page leads me toward the sun support being the suspect, but this page leads me to being Vulpix is broken by itself...very confusing for a lurker.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
I'm of the opinion that while Vulpix may not be broken, it can certainly be annoying to switch into, and that may be what pushes the sun archetype over the edge for some users. Boosted Fire-type attacks under sun hit hard, Energy Ball coverage, Will-O-Wisp being annoying as always, and a way to deal with faster opponents are all useful. While some users may believe that Chlorophyll users are manageable, dealing with that and with Vulpix is a reason why some users seem to be voting ban, which is what you are seeing in this thread. Hope this cleared up your confusion.
 

macle

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The first page leads me toward the sun support being the suspect, but this page leads me to being Vulpix is broken by itself...very confusing for a lurker.
people are just dumb, there's no way that vulpix would be suspected if there was no chlorophyll sweepers


To share my opinion, I think sun without bellsprout is manageable (hell maybe even sun with sprout is manageable). I laddered with a team without sprout and it was ok but nothing great. I would rather have more diversity in team archetypes in the metagame so I'm leaning towards no ban.
 
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