CAP Updates: Priority Discussion

snake

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Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"

I'm going to come back with more thoughts, but at the present moment, Arghonaut hilariously flops at its concept.

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Ok so it's gotta check the current top 5 Pokemon...right now that's Tapu Lele, who STABs and terrain completely shut it down; Aurumoth, who more commonly runs Psychium Z, dents it with Psychic anyways, and can even take advantage of it through Weak Armor; Mega Metagross, who uses Zen Headbutt; Tomohawk, who can Roost stall, Haze away boosts, and hit it with Flying-type STAB, and Landorus-T, who now commonly runs Flyinium Z. While Unaware definitely helps it check some of the boosting variants, and it's typing is good to check Pheromosa, it's not following its concept right now.

The main question is, will it ever be able to check at least 3 of 5 (majority) of the current top 5 Pokemon? It's a very fluid concept that sometimes the answer will be yes, and sometimes no. Therefore, it's hard to give it meaningful updates to fulfill this concept because: if we update Arghonaut around these Pokemon, and some of them are banned, we don't know if the update really helped its concept in the long run.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
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Which 3 CAPs do you believe least fit their concept (metagame role), such that their concept needs active reconsideration (or in some cases establishment)? This is not intended to judge the individual merit of prior concepts, but rather "does this Pokemon perform a role that matches its intent, and if not why not and where should it go consistent with Update Principles?"

I'm going to come back with more thoughts, but at the present moment, Arghonaut hilariously flops at its concept.

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Ok so it's gotta check the current top 5 Pokemon...right now that's Tapu Lele, who STABs and terrain completely shut it down; Aurumoth, who more commonly runs Psychium Z, dents it with Psychic anyways, and can even take advantage of it through Weak Armor; Mega Metagross, who uses Zen Headbutt; Tomohawk, who can Roost stall, Haze away boosts, and hit it with Flying-type STAB, and Landorus-T, who now commonly runs Flyinium Z. While Unaware definitely helps it check some of the boosting variants, and it's typing is good to check Pheromosa, it's not following its concept right now.

The main question is, will it ever be able to check at least 3 of 5 (majority) of the current top 5 Pokemon? It's a very fluid concept that sometimes the answer will be yes, and sometimes no. Therefore, it's hard to give it meaningful updates to fulfill this concept because: if we update Arghonaut around these Pokemon, and some of them are banned, we don't know if the update really helped its concept in the long run.
Kinda bouncing off of what Snake just said how will we be tackling concepts that are utter flops? (Plasmanta, Argho etc.)
 
I think some of the issues with some of the concepts is they were made specifically for the meta at that time with no real futureproofing or other niche. The five Pokemon that Argonaut was made to counter are no longer the top threats while Fighting as a typing has gotten a lot worse due to fairies, Voodoom's in the roughest spot out of all the CAPs (and iirc the allies it was made to work with are no longer in OU), Volkraken has found another kind of role, so it isn't too doing too bad, and iirc wasn't Plasmanta designed to lure in stuff weak to Gyarados and die so it gets a free switch-in? If it does that alright then it too isn't as big of a design fail. (Plus the concept isn't unsalvagable, just needs a good amount of work)

So, as asked previously, what do we do for the concepts that are unsalvagable due to no longer being relevant? Do we try out a new concept using the framework we have for them or just focus on developing a niche/role for them that builds on what they can already do with few changes?

Also: Several Gen 4 CAP projects have custom abilities/moves. Are there plans to remove those since they are no longer allowed on CAP projects?

Also2:
I also want to bring up Naviathan here. I believe Naviathan is a good example of a Pokemon that currently has actual tools to fulfill its concept ("two different boosting options"), and succeeds with one half of its concept, but currently does not succeed with the other half. I think this discussion will heavily focus on making its Physical boosting sets more viable to match its concept goal. This may be through improving its tools on that side or giving Naviathan something to boost its offensive power physically.
I remember that design process (still think Water Veil was a mistake btw) and recall a lot of fear about the Dragon Dance set being too overpowered and preemptively nerfed during a few stages of the process. or at least during the movepool stage) So I do agree: it shouldn't take a ton of work to get it to fulfill its concept since it's mostly there already.
 

reachzero

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As we discussed in the Policy Review thread, we will deal with CAPs with impossible (at least now) Concepts in terms of their metagame role, the function they have come to actually play in the CAP metagame. No one uses Latias or Lucario in CAP, least of all with Volkraken, but Volkraken has come to be recognized as one of the premier Choice users in the metagame, whether serving as the most effective Scarf user or blowing stuff up with Specs. Trying to re-introduce Latias and Lucario into the Volkraken update would be silly and anachronistic, so presumably we would update Volkraken as though it's role (pseudo-concept) is "premier Choice user". By the way, even though this isn't the place for discussing individual abilities, bringing up Stakeout is silly because Analytic already does the job more than well enough, and Volkraken is already very, very strong.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Project_Mars said:
Also: Several Gen 4 CAP projects have custom abilities/moves. Are there plans to remove those since they are no longer allowed on CAP projects?
As far as I know, no. Since they are a large piece of history for the CAP community, and an essential part of how each of these Pokemon function, it wouldn't really make any sense to eliminate Mountaineer, Rebound, Paleo Wave, and Shadow Strike. But, I could be wrong.

Back on topic, I agree with the idea that CAPs with concepts that flopped should use their "alternative concepts", such as reachzero's example with Volkraken. And giving Stakeout to Volkraken would spell doom for the metagame, simply put. The only way we could make Volkraken use Stakeout in a balanced way is through lowering its offensive stats, which is off the table due to established rules.
 

Deck Knight

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Arghonaut's concept was made for a Gen 4 meta in which both Psychic and Flying types were not nearly as prominent as powerful, and Fairy wasn't even a thing. The real question would be what metagame role is Arghonaut currently trying to fill. Arghonaut has a ton of competition from Bulky Waters and doesn't even have Scald to back it up (for reference, even QUAGSIRE uses Scald off its crap SpA. Argh's base 70 isn't great but it works.) What Argh does have going for it is that it's as bulky as Swampert but its 75 SPe lets it outrun and Taunt a lot of the Base 70 supportive mons, and it's got Recover for reliable recovery.

Argh still has plenty of potential, the question is simply how to unlock it.

There are no plans to alter any of the custom abilities/moves on the old CAPs. They are a part of their lore now and part of how they function.

- - - - -

I think the feedback in this thread has been wonderful.
Before we go to the actual polling, I'd like some process feedback.

The original idea was that we have our 6 UL's select in order of their victory from the "most complex" CAPs first and we end with the "least complex." Right now here is what that's looking like:

Most Complex
1. Competitive / Viability Ability Updates + Competitive Move Updates
2. Competitive Move Updates Only
3. Flavor Updates Only
Least Complex

Do these 3 Categories sound like useful polling options?
Intelligent Community Consensus in this thread for example would have examples that look like:

1. Aurumoth, Arghonaut
2. Tomohawk, Plasmanta
3. Stratagem, Colossoil

So snake_rattler and reachzero would pick amongst Category 1 Pokemon, and it would go down until all Category 1 updates were complete. Then whoever is up gets first choice of Category 2 Pokemon and the cycle continues.

I understand some CAPs are more "controversial" than others, however with a vote there is no guarantee how many of each CAP is going to end up in each category. I also am wary of people simply voting for "Top, Middle, Low" Priority instead because it skews the workflow if everyone has a huge sudden distaste for Strategem or something and vote it "Top" priority hoping they can air a grievance sooner rather than later.

I also think the vote should be binding in some sense. If people really want to discuss abilities for a certain CAP, they should vote it into Category 1. That is no guarantee of a change, we should always have an option for "No Ability Change" in the actual poll after the discussion, but I do think voter choices should have tangible impacts.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Rather than separating Ability updates from Move updates within the polling options, I think we should mesh them together and rank the updates based on how significant they will be overall. Whether a mom gets an Ability or Move update (or both) should be established in the next stage of the process, when we propose specific ideas. Therefore, I think the options should be more along the lines of

1. Major Competitive Update
2. Minor Competitive Update
3. Flavor Update Only

for each Pokemon.
 
As box said, the updates should be ranked by significance before taking Ability or move updates into account. Having a "No Ability Change" option during the corresponding polls should be there as well.

The order for updates could work in the following order: Major Competitive, Minor Competitive, and Flavor-only for the six Pokémon mentioned above. Regarding flavor-only updates: will the other non-priority (such as the first three, Krilowatt, and so on) CAPmons receive the tasty updates once the competitive updates are covered?

DarkSlay The Major/Moderate/Minor priority sounds much better, as some viable updates fit the flavor of certain CAPmons like Syclant and Icicle Crash, as well as a few other CAPs. Cyclohm falls under that as well because it's reasonably balanced while aging quite well, even among Fairies.
 
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DarkSlay

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This may be the lawyer-to-be in me talking, but I really, really don't like the implications of the labels "Major/Minor/Flavor". I feel as though "Flavor" is way too limiting of a term which could potentially bar unseen discussion in the near future. Take the following example:

Syclant is a pretty well-balanced CAP, and is thus placed in "Flavor". Syclant discussion comes up, and someone mentions Icicle Crash as a flavor move. Icicle Crash is widespread on physical Ice Pokemon (Weavile finally got it), and it goes with Syclant's concept, so its lack of availability makes it eligible for an update. X user points out that Syclant is "Flavor Only" and Icicle Crash is a good competitive move, and thus should be barred from inclusion and discussion.

What now? There's a legitimate point of bringing up Icicle Crash, since it matches well with Syclant, but our previous label may bar that move ultimately (which barring a discussion, at the very least, is silly). Therefore, I propose that the labels be changed to "Major/Moderate/Minor".

Major: This is reserved for CAPs who will have open discussions on an ability change and major competitive movepool updates.
Moderate: This is reserved for CAPs who who will have open discussions on major competitive movepool updates.
Minor: This is reserved for CAPs who will have open discussions on minor competitive movepool updates.

I believe these terms get the point across more aptly without having issues of further limitations.

(Sorry for the nit-pick topic...but you know me. \o/)
 

Deck Knight

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During an ongoing discussion between the GLs, ULs and some CAP Staff members, the general consensus of options is Major Update, Minor Update, and Consistency Update.

Major Updates have a very broad scope and could dramatically alter how the CAP plays in the metagame, Minor updates are less broad in scope but still centered around chiefly competitive outcomes. Consistency updates are the least broad and cover updates like the aforementioned Icicle Crash Syclant which blurs the line between being strictly competitive and strictly adhereing to what Gen 7 Ice types "look like."

The term Moderate is problematic in my opinion because neither Major or Minor are very well defined in its presence. It's a middle ground on both function and purpose. Major / Minor / Consistency breaks it down into two options defined by function and viability and one option where competitive implications are allowed, but not the primary function of the update.

With this framework in mind, we are still discussing the most efficient method of determining what order to focus on each CAP, so use this time to discuss Major / Minor / Consistency for each CAP and whereabouts they lie in the context of the CAP metagame.
 

reachzero

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Let's take this category by category.

Major updates required
I understand "major" to refer not to the number of changes made, but to the impact of the changes made. A move like Roost or Quiver Dance is a huge change, even if it's the only one made. I think a good baseline to establish would be something like "let's try not to add or subtract more than two major elements".

Aurumoth: Aurumoth is crazy powerful and needs to be toned down a bit

Tomohawk: Not likely to destroy your whole team, but warps the metagame to a crazy extent. Totally shuts down a huge number of physical threats as it is now. Could use one or two significant adjustments.

Voodoom: Needs a true niche in the worst way. Could use a few major improvements to give it incentive in addition to coverage help.

Revenankh: Has a good chassis, but doesn't fit together well coherently as it is now. Could use strong ability help.

Minor Updates Required
Kitsunoh: a small boost in survivability would go a long way here.

Arghonaut: I think one or two additions would be enough to make Argho a top competitor again.

Plasmanta: Badly needs one more coverage move, but one is enough.

Naviathan: could use a little better power on its physical side to keep pace with Gyarados, which 100% outclasses it at the moment. Depends a lot on what we do with Tomohawk, Arghonaut and Pyroak.

Malaconda:. This one is weird because Mala is actually really good at what is does, has complete movesets and a top flight ability, yet struggles in the metagame because the sort of Pokemon it switches in on has become an endangered species. Could use some help, but what that help would look like is harder to answer.

Consistency Update Only:
These Pokemon are basically fine as is.

Syclant
Krilowatt
Stratagem
Pyroak
Fidgit
Cyclohm
Colossoil
Necturna
Mollux
Cawmodore: Caw is fine and definitely not too strong.
Volkraken
Crucibelle
Kerfluffle
 

G-Luke

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Hi. To give my input, I believe most things have been discussed to death, so I wont waste time and go over them again. I just have to comment on couple things.

Krilowatt isnt busted to me at all, and the suggestions to remove Magic Guard to make other sets viable and Kril more versatile wont bring any good. Instead, I think we should focus on playing on its typing and ability strengths to make it more versatile. Krilowatt is used exclusively as a special attacker, even though its ability, stat spread and even typing supports defensive and pivot spreads. Rotom-W and Lanturn are both Water/Electric types that use their good defensive typing to pivot into threats. While Kril lacks an immunity ability, Magic Guard's status immunity makes up for it. I think Movepool additions to make it more versatile and fit with its concept more, as removing Magic Guard will do more harm than good.

Simple Thoughts

Syclant Just some nice flavour additions to keep it consistent with Bug and Ice types of this generation.

Fidget As is its severly outclassed as a support mon. A new secondary ability, access to other support options and / or buff to Persistent

Revenranhk Needs new abilities formost. New moves - both flavourful and competitive - are in order.

Arghonaught Flavourful additions to movepool. Possible competitive Hidden Ability as well

Kitsunoh A few touch ups in movepool and ability, as it has the the potential to do well.

Voodoom Divine intervention
 
Yeah, removing Magic Guard on Krilowatt won't help matters, as it will only make the shrimp useless, or at least even further outclassed by Rotom Wash.

Revenankh needs at least one new Ability, while Arghonaut would really appreciate having access to some (formerly) illegal Egg Move combinations. As stated before, Voodoom needs SmogSmog's deus ex machina to save it. Kitsunoh could use some work as well, since its Abilities no longer cut it in the hyper-offensive metagame we're dealing with.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I'm not playing playing CAP since the new gen, but I want to give some opinions:

Arghonaut: I'm not sure if a new ability will be good, but adding the combo Bulk Up + Recover, may be a good starting point

Fidgit: Maybe updgrading Persistent of 1 or 2 turns could be a good idea

Kitsunoh: I always thought that it's outclassed in every role, so a new ability could be a good idea

Krilowatt: Why you want to remove Magic Guard? 83/84 + Life Orb is not so much...

Malaconda: Definetely needs of something that could rise its viability

Revenanhk: Definetely needs of a new ability

Vodoom: Definetely needs of a lot of things that could rise its viability
 
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snake

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Fidgit As is its severly outclassed as a support mon. A new secondary ability, access to other support options and / or buff to Persistent
I wouldn't say it's severely outclassed, but it could use a minor update if not consistency. Persistent doesn't need a buff. Do you want to see a mon be able to set up Electric Terrain and Rain, one for 10 turns (if running the boosting item) and one for 7 turns, then U-turn out into Raichu-A? Might not be the best example, but there are big implications to buffing Persistent.


Picking an offensive move for Necturna's sketch move is vastly inferior to picking a status move. While they have merit on Necturna, I feel like a minor update to its natural (non-Sketch) movepool would help to incentivize picking an offensive move instead of the extremely common Sticky Web and much rarer Geomancy or Shell Smash. The point of Necturna is to be able to be unpredictable with its Sketch move, but if it's straight up terrible at using offensive moves, it becomes very predictable instead.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
I wouldn't say it's severely outclassed, but it could use a minor update if not consistency. Persistent doesn't need a buff. Do you want to see a mon be able to set up Electric Terrain and Rain, one for 10 turns (if running the boosting item) and one for 7 turns, then U-turn out into Raichu-A? Might not be the best example, but there are big implications to buffing Persistent.
But Persistent is a bit limited against other weather and terrain extenders (2 turns against the 3 of the extenders).
Also the moves upgraded by Persistent (Gravity, Trick Room, Heal Block, Safeguard, or Tailwind) lose one turn when activated, so we have 6 turns against the 8 of the extenders (when activated from an ability).
Also, I'm not counting if Fidgit needs to leave the field is not necessary
 

Deck Knight

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As far as my general stances, which I take from a position of discussion rather than if I personally want changes:

Major Updates:
Revenankh
Arghonaut
Voodoom
Tomohawk
Aurumoth
Cawmodore
Naviathan

I view Major Updates as the kind of Pokemon I think warrant a serious, extended discussion of their current metagame role or their ability to perform in it. Some of the changes I think these CAPs need are relatively minor, but I think the *discussion* should be more extended.

Minor Updates:
Fidgit
Kitsunoh
Krilowatt
Malaconda
Plasmanta

I feel these CAP Pokemon do have a few issues they need addressed, they are relatively minor in scope even if they might have major competitive implications.

Consistency Updates:


Syclant
Pyroak
Stratagem
Cyclohm
Colossoil
Necturna
Mollux
Volkraken
Crucibelle
Kerfluffle

I feel these CAPs are more or less excellent as is, and updates here primarily involve marginally competitive additions and low-impact discussions.
 
I heavily disagree with (and am quite frankly baffled by) the notion that Fidgit is "severely outclassed" and that Persistent needs a buff. I was going to wait until I had all my thoughts down to post, but I'd really like to stop that bandwagon from leaving the station unless we can see some concrete evidence as to why these changes are warranted.

edit: Here are my thoughts on the major/minor/consistency updates. When it comes to the primarily competitively-oriented updates (major and minor), my opinions are definitely on the conservative side. As such, this list probably won't come as a surprise to those who have talked with me personally on the matter.

Major: Aurumoth, Tomohawk, Voodoom

Whether or not you find Aurumoth broken, I think almost everyone can agree that this mon warrants a serious discussion of its capabilities in the current metagame. Aurumoth has managed to get even better this generation; it now has three highly effective abilities, it lost a major offensive check in Talonflame, it benefits from the introduction of Psychic Surge both offensively (boosts Psychic STAB) and defensively (nullifies priority), and the introduction of Z moves combined with its ridiculously expansive movepool have made it even more threatening. Even for the best players, playing against Aurumoth in a higher level tournament setting where you don't know its set is next to impossible due to the myriad of sets it can run effectively. Don't get me wrong; I'm not looking to gut this mon completely, but I do believe that Aurumoth exerts a negative presence in the metagame overall and that its movepool and abilities should definitely be discussed.

Tomohawk's presence is felt massively when teambuilding for virtually every playstyle, and while I don't find any one of its sets to be individually overbearing or broken, its sheer versatility makes it one of the most dominant Pokemon in the metagame, and I feel that a major discussion is warranted. From what I can gather, there's a pretty solid consensus that the Tomohawk discussion at least needs to happen, but there's a major disconnect as to what sorts of updates should happen (even amongst the more experienced players). This suggests to me that Tomohawk deserves a close inspection and discussion of both its movepool and its abilities from a competitive standpoint.

As it currently stands, Voodoom has no viable niche in the metagame, and its concept gives us very little to work with. This Pokemon warrants an in-depth discussion because we need to figure out some sort of consensus as to what direction we take this mon. I'd like to stress that this doesn't mean we absolutely must buff this Voodoom to some arbitrary degree, and I highly encourage everyone to consider all potential routes we can take before hopping on the "yo let's give voodoom nasty plot and sludge bomb so it doesn't die to fairies LOL" bandwagon.

Minor: Arghonaut, Revenankh

Arghonaut and Revenankh are in a similar boat. They both struggle a lot in the current metagame to the point where they're only effective on highly specialized teams at best. What separates them from Voodoom is that they have quite a few redeeming traits and tools for us to work with, and some minor tweaks should be enough to bring them to a more usable state. This is a bit more straightforward for Revenankh because its concept can (theoretically) still drive discussion for updates, but we'll need to discuss Arghonaut's direction a bit more carefully since its concept is basically unusable in the current metagame with a Water / Fighting typing.

Consistency: Everything else

My major/minor list was a lot smaller than that of most other people. It's an unpopular stance to take, but all of the remaining mons have a viable niche in the metagame, however small. Yeah it'd be sweet if Plasmanta had more coverage, yeah it be cool if Kitsunoh had some kickass ability instead of Frisk, but I haven't and don't plan on advocating to buff mons just for the hell of it or based on my own personal whims when they're really fine as is. I also don't believe it's our duty to try and "fix" every past concept that didn't go as planned unless it has a observably negative impact on the current metagame (see Aurumoth). If the mon is reasonably viable in its current state, however mediocre it may be, I'm going to urge us to stick with consistency updates. I largely agree with cbrevan's post. He explained a lot of the Pokemon which are middling in viability better than I would.
 
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DarkSlay

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MAJOR

Givens:
Tomohawk
Aurumoth
Voodoom
Revenankh


In-Depth:
Arghonaut - Thought this may be a given too, but people appear torn, so I'll expand. Arghonaut has a very specific concept that, quite frankly, is going to be very hard to do given today's Gen VII standards. Competitive update discussion should be pretty strenuous, including the potential for a new competitive ability.

Plasmanta - Also surprised with people lowering their ranking for this guy, might be one of the best examples of a CAP failing to do any portion of its job and has legitimate competition issues. Discussion should be thorough for this guy.

Naviathan - This is a borderline CAP for me, might need to have some discussion on how to treat it. As it stands, it operates in only half of its intended capacity, and there are a few ways of tackling its updates.

---

MINOR

Givens:
Malaconda
Krilowatt
Kitsunoh
Fidget

In-Depth:
Cawmodore - Cawmodore's definition under these parameters is hard to define. I think there's legitimate reason to talk about its ability, but if there is no ability change, then there's extremely little that can be done to differentiate Cawmodore from even Minor and Consistency Updates. The move section won't be in-depth as other CAPs, but ability discussion could be vital here.

Necturna - Necturna is interesting, since I feel as though while it currently has one or two viable sets, what it sets out to accomplish is a bit hampered in today's metagame. Kind of a borderline case too (like Naviathan with Major).

---

CONSISTENCY (NOTE: So long as it does not bar competitive additions.)

Syclant
Pyroak
Stratagem
Cyclohm
Colossoil
Mollux
Volkraken
Crucibelle
Kerfluffle
 
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snake

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On mobile, will edit in my stances later. If anyone's interested, I agree with DS's nominations most closely.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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Alright, lets do this in order:

Syclant: I can't really see any major issues with it as it is right now, and the only thing it really needs a HA. See no reason to give it anything higher than a Consistency Update.

Revenankh: It has some good tools to use, but just really doesn't have a good glue to really make it very good. I think an ability can really fix this dilemma, and it needs some more options. A Major Update will do it some good.

Pyroak: This is one that has been disputed a bit, but I think its move options are fine for now, other than some minor stuff. What really needs work is replacing Rock Head, as I personally think that Battle Armor is fine as is. It also needs a HA, so I'll put it as Minor Update for now.

Fidgit: Fidgit has actually benefitted greatly from this generation, as it can now exploit Trick Room very efficiently. Nothing on it seems in dire need of an update, other than that HA, so a Consistency Update should be fine.

Stratagem: Pretty much the same as Syclant, as it still performs really well. A Consistency Update is all it needs.

Arghonaut: Its concept can no longer really work in the metagame of today, so we need to identify it alternative concept, and give it the tools it needs to achieve said concept. Another ability other than Unaware would be mornice too. A Major Update is needed on it.

Kitsunoh: I don't know an incredible amount about Kitsunoh, but the common consensus is that it needs a bit more in the movepool, and I don't really oppose that opinion. I'll put it as Minor Update.

Cyclohm:
In two words, its fine. Even with Fairies, its still does its job really well. No more than a Consistency Update is needed.

Colossoil: Like Cyclohm, it is fine in executing its concept, and the introduction of the Fairy-type hasn't hampered it in the slightest. It only wants a Consistency Update.

Krillowatt:
It doesn't really fufill its concept due to his perfect amount of coverage, so aligning his movepool with this idea is a fairly good idea. A Minor Update should achieve this best.

Voodoom: The Most Major of Major Updates. That is all.

Tomohawk: There are some very specific tools that make Tomohawk almost too good, and Prankster may also fall into that category. It somewhere between Major and Minor, but I am leaning towards Major Update. I don't think Prankster is the big source of the problem, and should only need movepool updates.

To be continued...
 

snake

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Major Updates
Aurumoth - I wouldn't mind if this stays as a very relevant sweeper, just not on the level it's on right now.
Tomohawk - Same as Aurumoth, I wouldn't mind if this stays as a premier physical wall / LO breaker, but it needs to step it back just a little.
Voodoom - Needs a niche, we all want something major out of this
Revenankh - Flops spectacularly in the meta rn, so it's a little hard to see what it needs. Still, it could use a more consistent ability.
Arghonaut - It's a good counter for specific threats, but it's definitely lacking in a few areas, so it's definitely in the major change section
Naviathan - CM set is really good; DD is really bad. There's more than one way to address its main problem, its damage output (not its Speed!).

Minor Updates
Plasmanta - Desperately wants another coverage move complement its STABs, but it's still pretty solid as it is.
Malaconda - Honestly, it needs stats. A few more points in Attack and Defense would help immensely. However, we've restricted ourselves from that, so movepool is probably where we're going to have to look.
Kitsunoh - Honestly, it needs a new ability. Frisk is good for scouting, especially in the age of Z Crystals, but Limber just never comes into play. A good ability could compensate for its well rounded stats that just honestly aren't doing it many favors right now.
Cawmodore - Not sure what I want from this, but mostly I'd like for it to pressure one playstyle more than another instead of almost screwing everything if it gets the BD off.
Necturna - Like I said before, I'd like to see a move that could help incentivize running an offensive move. It's ability doesn't really do much, but honestly that's probably a good thing.

Consistency Updates
Syclant - Has a wide movepool anyways, two good abilities, excellent stats
Stratagem - Wide movepool, could see a new move here or there
Cyclohm - Still walls everything and picks off checks with wide coverage
Krilowatt - Lacks some of the key Electric- and Water-type moves that it should get, there's not too much that needs to go on this mon. Magic Guard is definitely not a problem though.
Colossoil - Flame Orb is cool, doesn't need much
Mollux - In my opinion, CAP's perfect mon
Volkraken - Awesome Choice Specs/Scarf user
Crucibelle - Doesn't need anything
Kerfluffle - I think it needs Mega Launcher guys

Still in Consistency Updates, but I wanted to separate these two off for a sec
Pyroak - Ok, I get that Rock Head is a dumb ability on Pyroak. But where's this "Pyroak needs a 'good' ability" coming from? I've seen it on PS a lot and a little bit here. Battle Armor doesn't get as much credit as it deserves. You cannot crit Pyroak. The mon with 120 / 105 / 90 defenses, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Lava Plume, and a type combination that leaves it with a few neutral weaknesses but not too many actual 2x weaknesses. Sure, the Stealth Rock weakness is annoying, but Pyroak can stop hyper offense teams cold if played with correctly. Fire / Grass / Ground coverage isn't that bad either, and it gets a bunch of utility moves like Stealth Rock and Aromatherapy. Pyroak is completely fine as it is; there's no reason to give it anything to increase its viability. Therefore, I place it in Consistency updates.

Fidgit - This CAP is honestly pretty fine as it is. It's got a bunch of hazards, hazard removal, two STABs that hit common spinners, U-turn, pretty excellent defensive stats and a good Speed stat. Persistent is a good ability as it is. There's no reason to make it last more turns; if you don't believe me, I'll play Trick Room against you, and you'll be glad it's only two more turns. Making it affect moves that have boosting items turns Fidgit from a good utility mon to FieldSetter9001, especially since some moves can last ten turns with the boosting item. Imagine your opponent taking half damage for basically 10 turns - that's a reality with Light Clay + this new Persistent. The only way I could see Persistent being buffed is that if it doesn't work at all with boosting items, but I really don't like this solution at all because it's overly complex. I might move this to minor if I change my mind about having another ability over Vital Spirit, but as it is now Persistent needs no changes.

EDIT: After reading spark's and cbro's posts, I feel like I need to define my major / minor competitive breakdown.

Major ranges from "Auru/Tomo/Voodoom help these are either S or D rank" to "Rev/Argho/Navi fail at a given niche really bad and deserve attention" but I don't think they're minor updates because they'll probably need more than one move or a "good" help them out. Minor updates are more of "here, have another good move OR a good, not OP ability that'll help you out some." The only exception to this is Cawmodore, who I feel like we need to take a look at, and everyone would appreciate discussion on it and how it functions in the metagame. Hopefully clarifying my stance will be beneficial everyone participating in the project.
 
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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Just a note on Mountaineer, Persistent, Rebound, Shadow Strike, and Paleo Wave, about the only updates anticipated are making the attacks usable with Z-Crystals on the standard power chart, and keeping the abilities consistent with Rebound acting as Magic Coat on switchin and Persistent specifically boosting field effects with no other boosters.

So Tailwind is fine, TR is fine, the "Room" moves and Gravity qualify, but weather and terrains do not as they have a boosting item.

Naturally the relevant threads are the best place to discuss this, but this is the generally held consensus.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Major Updates
Aurumoth - Aurumoth needs to stop causing the 50/50's it induces.
Tomohawk - Tomohawk has too many options and this should be lessened. The problem isn't any particular set it's all the sets together.
Voodoom - It just needs something be it wallbreaking capabilities or baton passing.
Arghonaut - Argho isn't bad but it's not good at all, it needs some nice utility moves and perhaps a new ability to help defensively.
Naviathan - DD navi is bad because it lacks power and struggles to compete with other set up sweepers such as Gyarados or Salamence.

Minor Updates
Kitsunoh - Right now it's not a good scout because it lacks the ability to safely switch into a bunch of pokemon, a new ability could hopefully fix this.
Malaconda - I'm not sure what this CAP really needs as I haven't used it much but I do find it underwhelming as a Spinner and a Wall.
Plasmanta - Really just needs better coverage to pair with it's STABs
Krillowatt - A few new moves could go a long way in krillowatts case.
Revenankh - Revenankh has an amazing typing and decent movepool, however it's speed works against it so much. Something to make it's speed less of a problem would be useful.

Consistency Updates
Pyroak - Why do people want one of the top Caps to get buffed?
Fidgit - Doesn't need anything other than flavor. Have you played against 7 turns of TR?
Syclant - It has an amazing movepool already coupled with an amazing ability... what more would you want?
Stratagem - Another CAP with an amazing movepool
Cyclohm - Another cap with an amazing movepool
Colossoil - It got better this gen, doesn't need anything competitively.
Mollux - It got better this gen, doesn't need anything competitively.
Volkraken - Still a good pokemon, doesn't need anything competitively.
Crucibelle - Not much to give Crucibelle.
Kerfluffle - I would've put this in minor updates but I don't know what you could give kerf to make it stand out more in this Meta. The other fairies just show it up "It's caught inbetween Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele".
Necturna - Sketch is really powerful, I don't think this really needs much.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
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To me, the changes these categories are describing should be defined by how much they alter the way a CAP performs in the metagame. As such, I'm interpreting major changes as those that would drastically alter the way a CAP performs in the metagame, significant changes to a CAP's established identity, or large changes in how viable a CAP is in the metagame. Mainly, these changes should be done to address a major flaw in a CAP's balance or usage, . Furthermore, I'm using the term minor changes to describe the CAPs I believe need substantial updates to movepool or abilities to remain competitive in their current roles. The main difference to me between major and minor changes is that one is attempting the correct a serious issue in a CAP's design, while the other is concerned concerned solely with keeping the CAP relevant this generation. Simply put, one's addressing design problems which will probably change how a CAP works, while the other is tackling relevancy issues to make sure the CAP continues to work. As a result, consistency for me will be defined as almost janitorial duties we'll be performing to make the CAPs more polished in the current generation. I predict there would be considerable changes done with these Pokemon, but they'd be more along the lines of adding a handful of viable moves from later gens as opposed to complex changes. In short, major updates for the the CAPs that really need major changes to function properly, minor updates for the ones that need the change to remain relevant, and everything else is under consistency.

Now that I've defined what these categories mean to me, I'll sort the CAPs into them along with some reasoning and feedback.

Starting off with major changes, the few CAPs I see potentially falling under this category are Aurumoth, Tomohawk, and Voodoom.

Aurumoth is the least balanced CAP in the current metagame, and presents enough of a problem to the meta that some aspects that define it necessitate a change. Ability and movepool will both need to be looked over thoroughly to find the best way to balance Aurumoth without gutting it or doing too little. Not much else to say here other than Illusion is a god awful ability.
Tomohawk is one of the defining forces of the CAP metagame, and is in large part responsible for how the tier has developed for the last several years. While I don't believe Tomohawk is the unhealthy element many have made it out to be, it's certainly as centralizing as a Pokemon gets in CAP. I won't go into whether or not that centralization is healthy for the meta at large here, so I'll just say this- regardless of what we actually do with Tomohawk, there is going to be an intense discussion about what it should and shouldn't do, and because of that discussion and the possible changes Tomohawk may be seeing I'm labeling it as a major.
Voodoom is the CAP I predict to see the largest number of changes, both in quantity and performance, simply because it is without a doubt the least viable CAP, and has been the least viable at least since XY. I've seen the best teambuilders and best players the CAP metagame has to offer try to make Voodoom work, and none of them have ever been successful. The metagame is just so hostile to Voodoom I find it hard to believe we can salvage it with anything less than major changes. If we make Voodoom halfways usable without changing everything about it I'd call that a win.

Continuing on to minor updates, the big three I see falling under this category are Arghonaut, Revenankh, and Kitsunoh.
Arghonaut currently has no real role in the CAP metagame for a number of complex reasons, but they can all be traced to its horrendous matchup against many of the largest threats in the metagame. I think the update process for it will have to accept that and instead focus on defining what Arghonaut is meant to do. However, unlike Voodoom where the current CAP is simply ass, Arghonaut already has a lot of strengths to work with, and as such should only take a few tweaks here and there to make work.
Revenankh is similiar to Arghonaut, but is much more defined in what it can do and what it's established identity is. Unfortunately, Revenankh is another case of matching up very poorly with top threats, and is again something the update process for it will most likely have to accept. A handful of well thought tweaks to movepool and maybe ability will go a long way towards keeping Revenankh relevant, and we shouldn't have to gut the mon to do so.
Kitsunoh is the odd bird out of the three Pokemon I mentioned, as it's actually a decent Pokemon to use and has a good established identity. However, I believe Kitsunoh is by far the weakest out of the remaining CAPs because it's simply okay at what it does. I've always felt like Kitsunoh has tended to stay afloat by banking on its three best aspects, high speed, great typing, and decent support moves, while the rest of it's package is relatively mediocre. Kitsunoh, in my eyes, will need more of an overhaul than anything else in consistency to remain viable this generation, which is why I've placed it as minor. That said, it is the CAP i'm the least confident in ranking, so I can see good arguments for it being grouped with the rest of the consistency changes.

And with that, everything else is a consistency update. I'm sure many won't agree with, but outside of the above mentioned CAPs, I think the rest of them can easily fit under this category because of one major reason: they already work in the current metagame. If the Pokemon work in the metagame, are viable and have the tools to remain viable, I don't believe there is much for us to do besides adding some generational updates. This is apparent with CAPs such as Colossoil, Cyclohm, Volkraken, Mollux, Crucibelle and its mega, Pyroak, Stratagem, and Syclant, who have consistently been some of the top performing CAPs in the metagame, and have an extremely solid established identity that needs real change. Changing these Pokemon in a significant way is just begging for us to make a mistake and ruin something good we already had.

Now, I've seen quite a few people include some of the more middling CAP mons as minor or major changes, which is a stance I wholeheartedly disagree with. There is nothing wrong with Plasmanta, Krillowatt, Naviathan, Necturna, and Fidgit, and I really do mean it when I say this. Simply put, these Pokemon perform well enough in the current metagame that changing them is unneeded due to the number of strengths they have. They may not be the greatest performing or the most viable, but any perceived lack of ability is because of a hostile metagame or a niche that will never be destined to be dominating. Plasmanta is an incredibly powerful Pokemon thats held back mainly by its middling speed and bulky Ground-types, specifically Colossoil. If at any point the metagame slows and AV Colossoil is not suffocating the tier in usage, I can assure you that it'll be a major threat. Krillowatt is very similiar to Plasmanta, but in my opinion more limited than it because its entire movepool is unfocused. Arguments on removing Magic Guard seem to be based on the fact that LO Magic Guard has been its defining set since creation, but that's not because Magic Guard outclasses Trace; it's because Trace is just a shitty set that has nothing supporting it in Krillowatt's movepool. Krillowatt really only needs two moves from generational updates to remain viable, maybe even a lot more viable, but overall I think Krillowatt can skate by with a very minimal amount of changes. Naviathan is being discussed because Dragon Dance is an underwhelming set and CM has trouble breaking stall when it's Dugtrio bait. That said, Naviathan's Calm Mind set would be a perfect stallbreaker if it wasn't weak to Dugtrio, and it's Dragon Dance set suffers mainly from damage output issues, which can be resolved with very minor changes to movepool. Again, in a less hostile meta Naviathan would be a very good metagame pick, so depending on how far you want to go with pushing Dragon Dance it's either a minor or consistency update.

Necturna is the biggest can of worms we could possibly open. I could not recommend any changes that make Necturna less reliant on Sketch this early in the generation; unlikely every other CAP Necturna has an insane amount of potential sets we've yet to see. Also, Necturna has a very strong niche already as the hands down best Sticky Web setter, so viability and relevance is hardly and issue for it. There's many other reasons I have for not wanting Necturna getting more tools, but I'll save it for the update process for it. Fidgit is another suggestion I don't understand. I guess people are assuming because theres three gen's worth of utility moves we're going to be loading them into Fidgit like an overstuffed taco, which I honestly hope we don't do lol. Fidgit already defines twoplay styles in CAP, and has proven over the last year or so that it can perform in roles indepenent of setting a field condition, so there really is no need to change that. For now I'll be considering Fidgit a consistency update until I see some actual evidence that it needs a buff of any sort.

Another Pokemon I'd like to address specifically is Cawmodore. Echoing what reachzero said, there is no need to change it. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, that points towards it being unbalanced in anyway, nor is there anything that points towards it being an unhealthy aspect of the tier. I don't buy a single one of the arguments that center on Cawmodore being an instant lose if it sets up, an instant loss if you don't pack a dedicated check, or that it simply sets up on too much. To me, none of those argument have any evidence to support them in the current metagame, because each on of them would result in a top tier Pokemon if they were true, and Cawmodore is far from being a top tier Pokemon. It has a host of weaknesses and pitfalls that are more apparant than they were last gen, which really demonstrate how flawed it would be to change it.

The last CAP I want to talk about is Malaconda; while I don't disagree with the claim that it is a very lackluster Pokemon in the current metagame, I have to point out that Malaconda is one of the most specially bulky Pokemon in the tier, with a serviceable defensive typing and a host of other strengths that really lend itself towards trapping and removing a handful of Pokemon. Unlike the other underwhelming CAPs I've listed as minor, Malaconda is competent in the small niche it fulfills in the current metagame, and has the potential to become significantly more viable independent of what we do.

So uh, tl;dr: major changes for balancing, minor for the mons that need a bump in usability, consistence for everything else thats perfectly usable in the meta. I'm not a fan of changing mons for the sake of changing mons, and I won't advocate a major/minor change unless there's solid reasoning behind it. Reasoning > all in my book.
 

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