CAP Updates: Crucibelle Discussion (Crucibelle)

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snake

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Crucibelle
Abilities: Regenerator / Mold Breaker / Liquid Ooze
Stats: 106 / 105 / 65 / 75 / 85 / 104

Crucibelle-Mega
Ability: Magic Guard
Stats: 106 / 135 / 75 / 85 / 125 / 114
Changes: ±0 / +30 / +10 / +10 / +40 / +10
Crucibelle is a really great Pokemon. Regenerator is a fantastic ability for it, allowing it to use Head Smash and mitigate recoil damage. It also allow Crucibelle to keep its health up throughout the match and Mega Evolve when it wants to. A decent speed tier, high powered STAB moves, U-turn, and Trick lets it act as a good Choice Scarf abuser.

Crucibelle-Mega, on the other hand, abuses recoilless Head Smash and Wood Hammer, can set up using Coil, pivot into hazards and out with U-turn, and can set up Stealth Rock in a pinch. Its inability to deal with Steel-types, some Ground-types, most physically defensive walls, status, and faster Pokemon keep it in check most of the time. As of this post, most metagame trends have kept it out of favor a little bit, but it's still nonetheless a very solid project.

I'm going to be honest here. Crucibelle is such a recent and successful project that it doesn't need any competitive changes. The purpose of this thread will be purely to update Crucibelle's ORAS movepool into a Gen 7 movepool. So without further ado, here are your questions:

What flavor moves, if any, from Generation 7 should Crucibelle receive? Be sure to include reasoning for why they aren't competitive.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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What flavor moves, if any, from Generation 7 should Crucibelle receive? Be sure to include reasoning for why they aren't competitive.

Gen 7's move additions are so incredibly all over the place that most of it does not fit at all with Crucibelle. Sure, there is Accelerock, but I'm pretty sure that it has far too much competitive usage to really be a consistency move, and its an exclusive. The only move that I think we should really consider adding is Brutal Swing. While it is a physical move, is base power is so low that it doesn't really serve as great coverage, even if it hits the occasional Psychic type, and it already has STAB to hit the two major ones right now: Aurumoth and Tapu Lele. Flavorwise, it could fling its pot around in both base and mega form.

Edit: Second Quanyails suggestion of Baneful Bunker. Not too much usage on it.
 
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What flavor moves, if any, from Generation 7 should Crucibelle receive? Be sure to include reasoning for why they aren't competitive.

There's only one move that I think would fit- Brutal Swing. It has low BP and doesn't do any favors for Crucibelle. Here are some moves I considered but rejected.

Accelerock- Crucibelle doesn't have priority, so this is too competitive.

Purify- It would be fine, but Z-Purify is an Omni-Boosting move, so bad idea.

Psychic Terrain- I would like to see this one, as it gets some Psychic moves already. However, nothing that learns it can breed with Crucibelle, so it would be impossible to give it to her outside of events or Smeargle.
 

Quanyails

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I'm looking at Baneful Bunker, given that Crucibelle lives in an inkpot. It's not a recommended move on Toxapex, but I question how much use Crucibelle would get out of it. Inflicting Poison on a Protected attack is a nice bonus, but is it worth the move slot? Edit: A discussion on Discord later, and I'm convinced it won't do too much for Crucibelle. 'u'

I'm on mobile, so I'll add more later.

Edit:

Yeah, Accelerock is STAB priority, and I think it'd be cool it Crucibelle got a little more than a consistency update, but, well, this isn't one.

I can go either way with Brutal Swing. I don't see Crucibelle wildly swinging its arms, but it is reckless enough to use Head Smash.

I can't really see other Gen. VII moves that fit, unless I've missed something.
 
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Deck Knight

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Crucibelle is basically perfect as is, and only Baneful Bunker sort of fits as non-competitive flavor. Even then, that's Toxapex's signature move so do we really want to go there for its own sake?

I don't see the flavor applications of Brutal Swing here. As I pointed out in the Arghonaut thread, Brutal Swing is primarily learned by Fighting types and more "violent" themed Pokemon like Dragons and aggressive Bug types. Crucibelle doesn't really fit, the only thing vicious about it is its viscousness.
 
Shell Smash could work since it already learns Explosion so it means that it can burst out of its pot pretty violently

Nope :p

I'm gonna say that I'm againts Baneful Bunker mostly because it's a move that's designed around Toxapex down to the animation, it basically uses all of its 12 legs to seal itself into a makeshift bunker and extend all of its poisonous spikes as a mean of defense. The only thing that Cruci even comes close to that is its pot and even then it only becomes spicky after Mega Evolving.
 
I might suggest adding Toxic Thread as it's a poisonous sucker but, idk if it would work as it's ariados' signature move.
 

BP

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Okay To be completely honest Crucibelle doesn't really need anything. We gave it basically everything it needs. good work CAP
 
Honestly, there isn't much to be said here. The community has opted not to do a competitive update, and Crucibelle's recent creation means its movepool is already pretty up to date.

Here are the Gen 7 Rock- and Poison-type moves for reference:
Accelerock, Acid Downpour, Baneful Bunker, Continental Crush, Purify, Toxic Thread

And here are all of the TM changes. Bolded moves are already learned by Crucibelle.
TM##: Gen 6 -> Gen 7
TM01: Hone Claws -> Work Up
TM28: Dig -> Leech Life
TM59: Incinerate -> Brutal Swing
TM67: Retaliate -> Smart Strike
TM70: Flash -> Aurora Veil
TM76: Struggle Bug -> Fly
TM94: Rock Smash / Secret Power -> Surf
TM98: Power-Up Punch -> Waterfall

Personally, nothing is really standing out to me. Baneful Bunker is somewhat interesting, though.
 

BP

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Accelerock seems like something nice even though it is competitive. I think getting a priority move would increase the viability of its Coil set.
 
Accelerock seems like something nice even though it is competitive. I think getting a priority move would increase the viability of its Coil set.
We already agreed that there would be no competitive update. I think that Accelerock would be lovely, but it is competitive, so we can't add it.

Work Up is a nice general move that a lot of Pokémon get via TM. Coil outclasses completely. Other than that, only Brutal Swing makes sense.
 

Dogfish44

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Alright, new Gen7 Moves:

Accelerock
Anchor Shot
Aurora Veil
Baneful Bunker
Beak Blast
Brutal Swing
Burn Up
Clanging Scales
Core Enforcer
Darkest Lariat
Dragon Hammer
Fire Lash
First Impression
Fleur Cannon
Floral Healing
Gear Up
High Horsepower
Ice Hammer
Instruct
Laser Focus
Leafage
Liquidation
Lunge
Moongeist Beam
Multi-Attack
Nature's Madness
Pollen Puff
Power Trip
Prismatic Laser
Psychic Fangs
Psychic Terrain
Purify
Revelation Dance
Shadow Bone
Shell Trap
Shore Up
Smart Strike
Solar Blade
Sparkling Aria
Spectral Thief
Speed Swap
Spirit Shackle
Spotlight
Stomping Tantrum
Strength Sap
Sunsteel Strike
Tearful Look
Throat Chop
Toxic Thread
Trop Kick
Zing Zap


Really not much new. I think there's value in considering Accelerock, Baneful Bunker, Purify, and Tearful Look.

Accelerock is fairly obvious on flavour, so this is mainly a question of 'would the competitive side of things hit us over the head with a trout for this?'.

Baneful Bunker makes a flavour win through the artwork, rather bluntly. The only question I have on this one is 'is it worth taking Toxapex's Sig Move', for which I'm uncertain.

Purify I think the idea of being a crucible makes great sense, especially with Cruci's slightly psychic influences, but as with Accelerock, I question the competitive aspect of a +1 across the board.

Finally, Tearful Look. Crucibelle gets Fake Tears, and fellow Rock-types Sudowoodo and Bonsly grab it.

And voila, my 2c.
 
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jas61292

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To be honest, I don't think there is really anything that good to add here. Crucibelle doesn't need anything, and I find claims of signature moves being good flavor dubious at best. There are really no gen 7 moves that fit it, and I feel adding anything is really just adding something for the sake of doing something, when something is not needed.
 

BP

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To be honest, I don't think there is really anything that good to add here. Crucibelle doesn't need anything, and I find claims of signature moves being good flavor dubious at best. There are really no gen 7 moves that fit it, and I feel adding anything is really just adding something for the sake of doing something, when something is not needed.

Jas just shut this down. I agree with 100%. Curcibelle doesn't need to be updated. It is perfect the way it is at the moment.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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So it seems like many people think that the exclusive move of Baneful Bunker wont work, so there's nothing new to add. I disagree, as Brutal Swing is still a very solid candidate for a flavor move. The sheer way that Crucibelle is played, with the focus on Head Smash supports this. For those believing that it cant really swing anything, it has that nifty pot that can be used as a bludgeon. Plus, there are Pokemon that can use the move that really don't have limbs such as the Honedge line, and most Snake-like Pokemon get it through swinging their tails.

In defense against Deck Knight's claims, The distribution of this move is really all over the place. Yes, it is learned by a number of Fighting types, Dragons (mostly of the legendary/pseudo-legendary kind), and violent bug types, but there is so much more to it. There is a Pokemon of every type that learns this move through TM, and a suprisingly good number of these are Rock and Ground type Pokemon. Additionally, the argument that its only learned by violent/aggressive Pokemon sorta falls flat. There are a large number of Pokemon that learn this move who cannot be considered violent or aggressive, the Sentret line, the Lickytung line, Goodra, Lopunny, and even the santa ripoff Delibird. Delibird is neither violent nor aggressive, that's for sure. And there is no evidence that Crucibelle is not either of those things. It just makes sense to give it Brutal Swing.
 
Sigh... I really don't think one move is that big of a deal, though I will say I don't support giving Cruci any new moves. However, for people who keep complaining about that Crucibelle has the pot to swing... I would like to ask you to get off the pot you're clearly on and read the move's description.

Brutal Swing: The user swings its body around violently to inflict damage on everything in its vicinity.

I ask a simple question: Is the pot part of Crucibelle's body? According to the dex entry it received, no. No it is not.

X/OR: They create their own ceramic shell by firing clay in areas with high geothermal activity.

Overall, the pot is clearly not part of Crucibelle's body, which means it shouldn't be classified as fitting the standards of Brutal Swing. And even if it was, realistically here, are we expecting it to get out of the pot it's sitting in, pick it up with its sludge "hands," and then actually hold it long enough to hit something over the head with? I simply don't find that realistic.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Sigh... I really don't think one move is that big of a deal, though I will say I don't support giving Cruci any new moves. However, for people who keep complaining about that Crucibelle has the pot to swing... I would like to ask you to get off the pot you're clearly on and read the move's description.

Brutal Swing: The user swings its body around violently to inflict damage on everything in its vicinity.

I ask a simple question: Is the pot part of Crucibelle's body? According to the dex entry it received, no. No it is not.

X/OR: They create their own ceramic shell by firing clay in areas with high geothermal activity.

Overall, the pot is clearly not part of Crucibelle's body, which means it shouldn't be classified as fitting the standards of Brutal Swing. And even if it was, realistically here, are we expecting it to get out of the pot it's sitting in, pick it up with its sludge "hands," and then actually hold it long enough to hit something over the head with? I simply don't find that realistic.
Is Timburr's log a part of its physical body? No. Is Farfetch'd stalk a part of its physical body? No. Is Dhelmise's anchor a part of its physical body? According to the Pokedex, no. Do all of these Pokemon have the ability to use the Brutal Swing? Yes. These Pokemon can all use there weapons in Brutal Swing, as they can use their weapons as an extension of themselves. I see no reason why Crucibelle couldn't do the same? And Crustle literally has to get out from under its stone slab to be able to use Shell Smash. Does that not seem unrealistic? Yet, it has been done. I don't see how the realistic argument holds up.
 

Deck Knight

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Brutal Swing is one of those moves that's just difficult to qualify in terms of what gets it, my own speculations notwithstanding. There's no reason for Crucibelle to either get it or not get it. While I don't want to add a Gen 7 move just for the sake of adding one to each CAP Mon, Brutal Swing is innocuous enough for me not to be bothered all that much.

Accelerock is a big no, though. Anything with 135 Atk and STAB priority is dangerous, and Mega Crucibelle has Coil to boot. You might say it's difficult to fit on a set, but priority always has that little edge to it. It also makes Band Crucibelle that much better as a revenge killer, so it's clearly highly competitive and outside the scope of this update.
 
Is Timburr's log a part of its physical body? No. Is Farfetch'd stalk a part of its physical body? No. Is Dhelmise's anchor a part of its physical body? According to the Pokedex, no. Do all of these Pokemon have the ability to use the Brutal Swing? Yes. These Pokemon can all use there weapons in Brutal Swing, as they can use their weapons as an extension of themselves.
Alright, fair point. I didn't realize those Pokémon got the move. I concede the point about the pot's being a weapon not disqualifying it.

I see no reason why Crucibelle couldn't do the same? And Crustle literally has to get out from under its stone slab to be able to use Shell Smash. Does that not seem unrealistic? Yet, it has been done. I don't see how the realistic argument holds up.
So now I'll reiterate was I was trying to get at earlier, but wasn't very clear with. To start this off, let me preface it with that the following argument really only applies to the base form, as the Mega Form actually comes out of the pot and stands up. The base form, however, is 100% undeniably sitting in its pot, without legs visible in the slightest. In fact, if you look at the left side of the pot (original art can be found here among other places), the pot actually appears to be filled with sludge. With that established, this is my main issue with the move Brutal Swing being used with the pot: the sheer number of steps in using the move would be quite more than your examples of Dhelmise, Timburr, and Farfetch'd. Look at your examples; their weapons are already in hand, ready to be swung at a moments notice. Compare that to what Cruci's base form would have to do. First, it would have to get out of its pot. Then, it would have to pick up the pot, which is still filled with the sludge ostensibly, and carry it over to the opponent to hit it. Then, it would need to get back in the pot.

Try and picture just for a second if this was the anime. Does it seem feasible that Crucibelle's base form would be able to execute the move fast enough for the opposing Pokémon to not evade it? I personally cannot picture that, which is why I don't believe the move is realistic.
 

Deck Knight

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To be fair, why does Crucibelle need to use its hands and bash with the pot when it's sticky and viscous enough to just use Brutal Swing like a modified Rapid Spin, staying within and adhered to the pot and using its own momentum to create the centrifugal force that's clearly apparent in the move, given it hits enemies and allies alike in doubles formats?

Anyway, like I said, take it or leave it on Brutal Swing, but it's the least problematic of Gen 7's new moves in that it's not signature, poorly distributed, or level-up exclusive.
 

G-Luke

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So the entire point of the thread is to argue as to how Crucibelle uses its pot?

Anyways, echoing what most say in that Crucibelle truly doesn't need anything, and the thread should be closed, and something else that truly needs updated should commence like Kitsunoh
 
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snake

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Time to hit the polls everyone!

Accelerock is a competitive move. Priority is something we should not see on Crucibelle.

No one really seems too sure about Baneful Bunker because it's taking Toxapex's signature move for itself. There haven't been too many strong arguments for it, so I'm leaving it off the slate. Also, I've apparently been reading it wrong for the past 7 months (been reading it as Baleful Bunker...).

Brutal Swing is going to get polled because some of you think Crucibelle needs to go reverse Zelda and break everything else with an urn.

Expect a poll shortly on Brutal Swing only. Remember that there is always an option for no change. A perfectly acceptable outcome is to leave Crucibelle as it is.
 

snake

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Crucibelle's poll has ended. You can see the results here. Crucibelle will not be receiving any changes.

Thanks to everyone who participated!
 
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