Maybe STAB Pursuit coming from 118-122 attack is enough to keep Trick away. It might, considering most Trick users are weak to it. Of course I also don't understand why this topic hasn't been dropped yet.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 9a - Secondary Ability Discussion
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Poison Heal is a kickass secondary ability, not only because of the individual benefits I've already mentioned previously, but also because it takes advantage of the fact that Auto Magic Coat exists. Both of them together can stop the secondary cold.
Poison Heal is arguably more broken than Guts.
Remember Stallrein? How much does Stalrein heal per turn with Hail + Leftovers?
12.5%.
How much does Poison Heal recover per turn?
12.5%.
Is CAP9 immune to the most prevalent weather effect in OU?
Yes.
Propose to me how we will do anything but create another stall-whore given a moveset like:
CAP9 @ Toxic Orb
~ Substitute
~ Protect
~ Rapid Spin
~ Crunch
Not only will this pokemon perfectly obliterate the opponent's stall, it can actually defeat common counters that only pack one SE move.
Now you could argue you'd just run into another CAP9 eventually and you'd both end up resetting the field. It doesn't really matter, because in such an instance you will remain at full HP and can simply wipe out the next attempt to set up hazards. Point is, it can stall for 32 Turns in a Sandstorm. Woe be unto you if you aren't also packing the anti-stall centralizer CAP9, since chances are they can keep their hazards up if you aren't. If you have your own hazards, you can just wait until Starmie, Celebi and co are in Crunch KO range.
Remember Stallrein? How much does Stalrein heal per turn with Hail + Leftovers?
12.5%.
How much does Poison Heal recover per turn?
12.5%.
Is CAP9 immune to the most prevalent weather effect in OU?
Yes.
Propose to me how we will do anything but create another stall-whore given a moveset like:
CAP9 @ Toxic Orb
~ Substitute
~ Protect
~ Rapid Spin
~ Crunch
Not only will this pokemon perfectly obliterate the opponent's stall, it can actually defeat common counters that only pack one SE move.
Now you could argue you'd just run into another CAP9 eventually and you'd both end up resetting the field. It doesn't really matter, because in such an instance you will remain at full HP and can simply wipe out the next attempt to set up hazards. Point is, it can stall for 32 Turns in a Sandstorm. Woe be unto you if you aren't also packing the anti-stall centralizer CAP9, since chances are they can keep their hazards up if you aren't. If you have your own hazards, you can just wait until Starmie, Celebi and co are in Crunch KO range.
I'd rather not have a second ability. Guts I think is very broken, and Deck has just convinced me Poison Heal is probably pretty broken too. If we give it either of these, it'll be an unstoppable force or an unmovable object; both of which completely ignore the concept. If it weren't for it's amazing stats whatnot they might be acceptable, but as it is...
There are some other options to consider, but I'm really thinking that just having one ability is the way to go.
There are some other options to consider, but I'm really thinking that just having one ability is the way to go.
I'd rather not work with another custom ability; we should try to keep a limit on what we create from scratch.
As for the Ability itself, I'd like to see an offensive Ability, hence why I'm supporting Guts; Guts still Stops the Secondary perfectly well, while offering a different tack to do so.
As for the Ability itself, I'd like to see an offensive Ability, hence why I'm supporting Guts; Guts still Stops the Secondary perfectly well, while offering a different tack to do so.
Is Sandstorm the effect in OU with the most pokemon that resist it?
Yes.
Granted, most of these fall to STAB EQ, but what of Skarm, who walls this set to even more ends than the others? What of Bronzong? Something like Metagross could beat the Sub+Protect with Bullet Punch + Other.
Unlike the list of pokemon that are common in OU, that are not killed by hail. The list of common ones is... Zero. Mamoswine is about the most common, and he's not used much.
Stallrein only works, in part, because it's immune to the weather that sustains it. Although this isn't Sandstorm, the fact is, you should have taken T-Tar and Hippowdon out before bringing Stalrein in.
I'd rather wait for 32 turns, then slughter CAP9, by stalling with Skarmory, Hippowdon, ect, ect, than have CAP9 be able to OHKO almost everything in the game with Guts.
Plenty of things beat Sand-Stall CAP9. Few things beat Stallrein, because far more in OU is immune to Sandstorm, and has the bulk to shrug off CAP9's other attacks, while also having the power to either force it to switch out, meaning it has to come in later safely, or force it to stall for 32 turns, doing nothing, or attack, doing nothing important, because of Slack Off/Roost, before being killed, or at least, Whirlwinded away.
Guts is more broken. I've supported that Hail Stall > Sand Stall. If people say guts CAP9 would make Uber, his is kinda like a flowchart for what I just explained.
If Guts = Uber (Under Offensive, it could sweep whole teams without Skarmory/Maybe Bronzong)
And
Sand Stall > Guts
Sand Stall = More Uber
However
Hail Stall > Sand Stall (3 common immunities < 1 rare one)
Therefor,
Stallrein = Uber (Which it isn't, annoying, yes, beatable, yes)
I support Inner Focus. It isn't broken, it adds a nice bonus so flinchhaxxors and Fake Out users don't get cocky (in other words, it stops the secondary secondary!) and while I don't see every artwork having it, we can always rename and create a clone ability (like Vital Spirit vs. Insomnia,) right?
Inner Focus is simple, a decent filler, and a good ability for stopping the secondary.
Inner Focus is simple, a decent filler, and a good ability for stopping the secondary.
OK, first of all I will admit foolishness on my part for omitting Hippowdon. I was under the impression that Skarmory, Forretress and Gliscor were OU's premier physical walls and that if CAP9 could 2HKO these with physical attacks after a Guts boost, it could 2HKO everything, making nothing a safe switch-in, making CAP9 get a guaranteed kill just like YacheChomp in the days of D/P. I also noticed on the CAP server that people don't seem to like my damage calcs for Forretress and Gliscor because the moves used hit them on a 4x weakness. I can tell you now though that a Guts boosted Earthquake still scores a 2HKO against Forretress and a Guts boosted Crunch has a small chance of 2HKOing Gliscor after Stealth Rock.
Also, it seems that a lot of people were missing my point. I can claim right now that a Guts abuser with base 9999 attack can still not be broken, provided that it gets base 1 in every other stat and no priority moves whatsoever (which is actually one of the reasons why Heracross fails as a Guts abuser). Likewise, Rampardos' lackluster stats outside of attack are why it is NU and not Uber. All the other Guts pokemon (OU or otherwise) lack either the defences or the speed to be broken with Guts. As a result, any attempts at a Guts sweep are easy to stop, unlike with a CAP with either Hariyama-esque defences and Gliscor's speed or Swampert-esque defences and Infernape's speed.
I still stand by the principle that we should never be forced to nerf a CAP's movepool just to prevent it from being broken or overpowered and that is why I have been opposing Guts. If there is evidence that a Guts abuser with good stats across the board and especially in attack and speed is not broken, then I have nothing left to argue.
EDIT: One last issue I have is the comparison between a Guts user and a Choice Band user. The drawback with the Choice Band user is more severe than the drawback with the Guts user, ie it is worse to be locked onto one move that will inevitably be ineffective against something than it is to lose 12% of your HP each turn. That's why CBTar 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Punch is less threatening than Guts CAP9 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Punch.
Also, it seems that a lot of people were missing my point. I can claim right now that a Guts abuser with base 9999 attack can still not be broken, provided that it gets base 1 in every other stat and no priority moves whatsoever (which is actually one of the reasons why Heracross fails as a Guts abuser). Likewise, Rampardos' lackluster stats outside of attack are why it is NU and not Uber. All the other Guts pokemon (OU or otherwise) lack either the defences or the speed to be broken with Guts. As a result, any attempts at a Guts sweep are easy to stop, unlike with a CAP with either Hariyama-esque defences and Gliscor's speed or Swampert-esque defences and Infernape's speed.
I still stand by the principle that we should never be forced to nerf a CAP's movepool just to prevent it from being broken or overpowered and that is why I have been opposing Guts. If there is evidence that a Guts abuser with good stats across the board and especially in attack and speed is not broken, then I have nothing left to argue.
EDIT: One last issue I have is the comparison between a Guts user and a Choice Band user. The drawback with the Choice Band user is more severe than the drawback with the Guts user, ie it is worse to be locked onto one move that will inevitably be ineffective against something than it is to lose 12% of your HP each turn. That's why CBTar 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Punch is less threatening than Guts CAP9 2HKOing Skarmory with Fire Punch.
This is a humdinger, isn't it?
Inner Focus and Insomnia could work, but I don't think anyone would choose those over Auto-Magic Coat...
Surely Mold Breaker is an option, I remember it being mentioned earlier, but I don't remember why it got discredited. At the very least, it would be an alternate option which has its advantages, e.g. a CBing EQer who gets round common levitator...
Just throwin' it out there, that's all!
Inner Focus and Insomnia could work, but I don't think anyone would choose those over Auto-Magic Coat...
Surely Mold Breaker is an option, I remember it being mentioned earlier, but I don't remember why it got discredited. At the very least, it would be an alternate option which has its advantages, e.g. a CBing EQer who gets round common levitator...
Just throwin' it out there, that's all!
Problem with this line of thinking is that you could just slap on a flameorb and have a very dangerous sweeper that has nothing to do with 'stopping the secondary'.
However i have a question. I know this cap is gonna be tested in isolation and all that, but why are we ignoring the current cap's? Isnt fidget the utility poke that was made for special effects? Yet no one mentions it at all.
I believe this is because we test each CAP separately so on the testing ladder where CAP9 is allowed, all other CAPs will be baned.
I vote for no other ability at all. I don't feel like CAP9 needs any other ability, except for moves, to completely fulfill its role. It won't be the ability that will make CAP9 make all its job, but its moves in general also. This pokémon will have a high speed afterwards, and has now a secure way of switching in, so he has all the reasons to stop any Taunt / Trick / Encore with its own hands.
However, Guts is still a nice ability, but maybe his role gets forgotten because of the ability.
However, Guts is still a nice ability, but maybe his role gets forgotten because of the ability.
I really dislike the idea of Klutz and Sticky Hold. If they want to be trick "immune" then they should just use a choice item themselves rather than ensure that they can't use their item or that they have an extremely conditional ability.
Guts is the best seconday ability for the CAP!
Synchronize is a worse AMC. Why would anyone use it?
Giving this thing Magic Guard would be over the top in my opinion. Giving it Steadfast/Inner Focus isn't a good idea either. It does nothing for the theme. CAP 9 isn't supposed to stop all secondary effects, but rather secondary moves, moves with no base power (though you could make a case for including moves with useless bases power like rapid spin and knock off). Fake Out imo is not a secondary move.
Guts allows this thing to be a serious threat if you decide to status it. I feel that Auto-Magic Coat was a really terrible ability for the CAP because most statusers are also status absorbers, or don't care about their status. Blissey hardly cares about its own toxic. Standard Restalk Rotom-A doesn't care about taking his own w-o-w. Roserade doesn't care much about sleeping itself. Magic Coating something isn't much of a status/secondary deterrent. Guts makes the CAP a viable (though counterable) threat, which really makes people decide not to use secondary. Even if you do slap a flame orb on it, how is that different from poison heal? You are still status absorbing.
Guts is the best seconday ability for the CAP!
Synchronize is a worse AMC. Why would anyone use it?
Giving this thing Magic Guard would be over the top in my opinion. Giving it Steadfast/Inner Focus isn't a good idea either. It does nothing for the theme. CAP 9 isn't supposed to stop all secondary effects, but rather secondary moves, moves with no base power (though you could make a case for including moves with useless bases power like rapid spin and knock off). Fake Out imo is not a secondary move.
Guts allows this thing to be a serious threat if you decide to status it. I feel that Auto-Magic Coat was a really terrible ability for the CAP because most statusers are also status absorbers, or don't care about their status. Blissey hardly cares about its own toxic. Standard Restalk Rotom-A doesn't care about taking his own w-o-w. Roserade doesn't care much about sleeping itself. Magic Coating something isn't much of a status/secondary deterrent. Guts makes the CAP a viable (though counterable) threat, which really makes people decide not to use secondary. Even if you do slap a flame orb on it, how is that different from poison heal? You are still status absorbing.
Let's think about this.
AMC already blocks all status and leech seed on the switch (I think). What other secondary effects does that leave? These are the ones I can think of, in order of importance:
-Trick
-Entry Hazards
-Stat-up and recovery moves
-Taunt
-Phazing moves
-Weather (rain and sun, not the auto-weathers)
I believe those cover pretty much all of the commonly used secondary attacks, besides status. I believe we should choose an ability that can pick up AMC's slack in these areas, so that in case the metagame moves away from status and towards these other abilities, CAP 9 will not be made less useful. The problem is, no in-game abilities cover these weaknesses, besides extremely situational and mostly useless ones like Sticky Hold and Suction Cups. And we might as well not give our CAP an ability at all if we're stuck with those.
But we do have quite a few options for custom abilities. Some of these are from the first thread, some are ones I made up:
Reverse Psychology: Reverses the effects of Trick, Encore, Taunt, Torment.
Pincushion: If the opponent sets any entry hazards while this Pokemon is on the field, this Pokemon absorbs them. This includes hazards set up as this pokemon switches in. It does not absorb hazards already set before it switches in.
Even Ground: While this Pokemon is on the field, the opposing Pokemon may not increase any of its stats. This includes stat-up effects from moves like Meteor Mash. However, already modified stats are unaffected.
If these abilities are deemed too strong/weak, I would prefer that this CAP has No Secondary Ability over something like Guts or Poison Heal, as both of those abilities are only tangentially related to the concept at best and allow this CAP to fill roles it wasn't meant to (sweeper and staller, respectively).
To those saying Guts is not too powerful, look at it this way: it's like a choice band that has life orb recoil instead of a sweeping-ending block on coverage. The only thing stopping Pokemon that currently have Guts from rampaging through the metagame is poor speed (Ursaring, Heracross, Machamp) or poor attack/movepool/defenses (Swellow). And even Swellow, who is by all accounts a shitty Pokemon except for its speed, receives enough of a power boost from Guts to allow it to rampage through UU. The only thing capable of stopping it is a steel or rock type, which prevents it from being broken in that tier. However, there is no such full-stop for Dark/Ground in OU (one of the reasons I argued for it back in the typing poll; it's a good offensive type) as the STABs are only walled by Skarmory (and we can easily pack a coverage move for it; Fire Punch or, if Deck Knight's build is chosen, Fire Blast) and only the rare Hippodown has enough raw defenses to take hits (and it is 2hko'd after some residual damage anyway).
AMC already blocks all status and leech seed on the switch (I think). What other secondary effects does that leave? These are the ones I can think of, in order of importance:
-Trick
-Entry Hazards
-Stat-up and recovery moves
-Taunt
-Phazing moves
-Weather (rain and sun, not the auto-weathers)
I believe those cover pretty much all of the commonly used secondary attacks, besides status. I believe we should choose an ability that can pick up AMC's slack in these areas, so that in case the metagame moves away from status and towards these other abilities, CAP 9 will not be made less useful. The problem is, no in-game abilities cover these weaknesses, besides extremely situational and mostly useless ones like Sticky Hold and Suction Cups. And we might as well not give our CAP an ability at all if we're stuck with those.
But we do have quite a few options for custom abilities. Some of these are from the first thread, some are ones I made up:
Reverse Psychology: Reverses the effects of Trick, Encore, Taunt, Torment.
Pincushion: If the opponent sets any entry hazards while this Pokemon is on the field, this Pokemon absorbs them. This includes hazards set up as this pokemon switches in. It does not absorb hazards already set before it switches in.
Even Ground: While this Pokemon is on the field, the opposing Pokemon may not increase any of its stats. This includes stat-up effects from moves like Meteor Mash. However, already modified stats are unaffected.
If these abilities are deemed too strong/weak, I would prefer that this CAP has No Secondary Ability over something like Guts or Poison Heal, as both of those abilities are only tangentially related to the concept at best and allow this CAP to fill roles it wasn't meant to (sweeper and staller, respectively).
To those saying Guts is not too powerful, look at it this way: it's like a choice band that has life orb recoil instead of a sweeping-ending block on coverage. The only thing stopping Pokemon that currently have Guts from rampaging through the metagame is poor speed (Ursaring, Heracross, Machamp) or poor attack/movepool/defenses (Swellow). And even Swellow, who is by all accounts a shitty Pokemon except for its speed, receives enough of a power boost from Guts to allow it to rampage through UU. The only thing capable of stopping it is a steel or rock type, which prevents it from being broken in that tier. However, there is no such full-stop for Dark/Ground in OU (one of the reasons I argued for it back in the typing poll; it's a good offensive type) as the STABs are only walled by Skarmory (and we can easily pack a coverage move for it; Fire Punch or, if Deck Knight's build is chosen, Fire Blast) and only the rare Hippodown has enough raw defenses to take hits (and it is 2hko'd after some residual damage anyway).
- Status