CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Gregar]

Decided to read some discussion and see where the discussion went.

There's not really anything in the Disalowed list that I disagree with.
They make sense: they would break Necturna. It would maybe not be super overpowered, but it would be too versatile and too good at all jobs. All teams need a dedicated counter. It's basically the reason Deosxys-S was asked to leave BW OU.
Besides, if you really want a certain move and feel Necturna needs it, sketch it!

As for the Controversial list, there's some stuff I feel strongly about.

long version

I think physical BoltBeam would be pushing it a bit. The calcs show that Ice Fang makes Dragonite die instantly. Trust me, I would like nothing more than to see a Dragonite die, but this might be pushing it. When Multi Scale Dragonite dies, every other flying/dragon and Gliscor die too. This is, in my humble opinion, insane. Keep in mind, Sketching it is still possible, if you really want it.

For the same reason, I feel Ice Punch is pushing it. It's too much.

Ice Shard, on the other hand, I have a problem with for two reasons. It's not as powerfull, but it has priority. We all know how annoying that is. I will use Dragonite as an example, because it's the hardest dragon to take down in one shot. Ice Shard hits on switch or in revenge, regardless of Dragon Dances. It cannot retaliate with Extreme Speed, because Necturna is immune to normal attacks. It HAS to switch. Remember, other dragons aren't as bulky and don't have multiscale. Granted, Gliscor may tank a hit, but it will have nothing to force Necturna out, other than Fire Fang or Acrobatics.
The second reason is a lore reason. I know that we don't do those here, but Donphan's line is the only evolution line that gets Ice Shard that is not Ice-typed. Why would a plant get it?

I don't see an immediate problem with Thunder Fang, because it's slightly easier to nullify, thanks to Ground pokemon and Volt Absorb and the likes. I don't mind Thunder Punch for the same reason.

The most controversial one on the list is probably Power Whip. It's the big bad STAB attack of the Grass type. And I see no problem with giving Necturna Power Whip. Sure, it's powerfull, but it doesn't auto-kill anything that isn't super effective. Heatran, one of the pokemon we decided to make a Necturna-counter, is 4x resistant to it. Skarmory is 4x resistant to it. Ferrothorn is 4x resistant to it. There's so many more, because Grass is a type that is good in certain situations, Swampert or Gastrodon, but not too great in others. As long as Nocturna doesn't become too versatile with it's natural movepool, I have no problem with Power Whip.

In short:
Ice Fang Disallowed
Ice Shard Disallowed
Ice Punch Disallowed
Thunder Fang Allowed
ThunderPunch Allowed
Power Whip Allowed

The "Need Discussion"-list has some weird attacks on it. I will only elaborate on those that I feel that need some explanation on my part.

long version

I don't really mind the Flying moves. There might be someone looking to break them, but the Necturna-counter-club appears to handle them just fine. Steel-types are resistant, and Flying attacks don't seem too daunting without STAB.

Extreme Speed is a big no-no in my book. Belly Drum Extreme Speed seems a bit crazy. Add Horn Leech to that moveset, and you have a Killer on your hands. I don't like to take that risk.

Super Fang is a dangerous move that can turn a solid counter into a mere check. Imagine a special set: Quiver Dance, Giga Drain, Shadow Ball and Super Fang. You send out Blissey, which could sponge this particular set easily, but Super Fang takes away a solid 50% of your hitpoints. That's 357 points of damage. How many Special Sweepers can do that to a Blissey?

Fake Out and the Steel-type attacks are fine by me.

In short:
Acrobatics Allowed
Air Slash Allowed
Drill Peck Allowed
Fake Out Allowed
Super Fang Disallowed
ExtremeSpeed Disallowed
Flash Cannon Allowed
Meteor Mash Allowed

 

[Cooky]

Why would anyone use thunder fang on anthing it isnt competitive really. also the whole ice fang controversy is sorta undermined by return / stone edge OHKOing Dragonite / Hydreigon (most of the time) anyway with +1 LO Adamant after SR

Not like it really matters since steels eat it and everyone has a steel or two going.

 

[JGSabino]

I don't get why Special CAP 2 shouldn't be dealing with Skarmory with Special Electric-type moves... Just saying.

About the Ice-type moves, I think they should all be disallowed. While I think Skarmory should only take Physical moves, Hydreigon is decent against both Physical and Special and it should only be defeated through a Sketch move. Also, CAP 2's Attack is way better than its SpA.

 

[Spork]

Swap Super Fang for Sub and you beat Blissey anyway ;) In fact, you can't beat Blissey at all with that Super Fang / Quiver Dance set you mentioned. Yeah we should allow Super Fang, she can't generally do >50% to her checks without having set up or having used Sketch specifically to lure and kill them, and with Sketch and a good attack stat she has much better ways of dealing damage or stallbreaking. I might be missing something, but I can't really think of any situations where I might use it? Allow it I think.

SJCrew is correct about Power Whip I think. At this stage, Gliscor is not a good check for Necturna anyway - it can check some physical variants if it's an Acro set (Ice Fang is pretty pitiful without investment, and fails to 2HKO (I think) after an SD), but it's very unreliable, I'd say - and of course Conkeldurr is already beaten by Leaf Blade (and needs Payback in order to do any damage anyway). But then, we should really be wondering why we want these pokemon to act as checks. Shouldn't a boosted, neutral STAB hit really be able to at least 2HKO most defensive pokemon? Isn't this the case for basically every Set-Up Sweeper in OU? I would argue that the extra power Power Whip provides is good, maybe even necessary to a physical sweeper's success - the amount of KOs it misses without it (which isn't really that many) makes it pretty inferior, IMO, when there are things like Salamence and Lucario that could be run instead, and its surprise factor doesn't really serve as a good enough reason because it's basically always checked by the same things. Allow Power Whip ftw!

Extremespeed is kinda tricky IMO, because If it had Extremespeed, certain sets (Choice Band!) would probably always use it. I don't really think it needs Priority hugely, because of its somewhat good defenses and defensive typing and hits a nice speed tier (for a bulky offensive poke), but the ability to 2HKO faster threats is very tempting when combined with a choice band, and most of the successful Banders in OU do indeed. Also, in its defense, we should remember that Extremespeed doesn't necessarily make Necturna t harder to revenge, because physical boosting sets almost always boost speed anyway, and Extremespeed does little damage to Scizor - I don't think it would be used on a set like Shift Gear or Shell Smash, and would likely be used solely with a Band. One of the main problems with ExtremeSpeed, however, is that it can 2HKO Hydreigon on the switch (it seems a lot of these controversial moves always seem to pick on poor Hydreigon...) and while Close Combat does this anyway (likely a staple with Choice Band, alongside Sacred Fire), and while being able to sometimes beat its counters is just another facet of Sketch, I think Extremespeed offers it a way to beat too many things at once, and would certainly influence the attacking moves we Sketch (Fire is almost always superior). A set like Power Whip - Stone Edge - V-Create/Sacred Fire - ExtremeSpeed is basically impossibly to wall in OU, and while that is true of many Choice Banders (a Choice Bander's power is not what generally determines its brokenness, because they require perfect prediction), I think it hurts the concept to offer so much power to a single set, and to influence our Sketch move so obviously. I think it's controversial, but I do honestly lean towards Disallow ExtremeSpeed (sorry!).

@bmb. Flash Cannon really is not a distraction in my opinion, I really fail to be distracted by it. It really should be allowed I think. But of course, since nobody's going to use it either way, I don't think anybody would really notice if it was disallowed :P. Air Slash is of course pretty weak and uncomplementary, but I do think it's a bit more 'distracting' than some other moves, and it also has a place on the potential, ahem, Leech Seed set (sorry , polljump!) that could affect the Sketch choice. I don't have a strong feeling on it though, it should probably be allowed, but again it wouldn't be used anyway so I won't fight a general consensus. Meteor Mash and physical flying aren't worries either imo, since one has bad coverage and the other has bad base power. Acrobatics could see use on some kind of White Herb Shell Smash set though imo, because its coverage isn't exactly terrible alongside grass.

>Ice

Obviously supporting physical Ice Moves is a losing battle, but it does kinda hurt when I'm snapped at for calling the Gliscor KO practically irrelevant - of course Gliscor as a pokemon in OU isn't irrelevant, but as a check to Necturna, yeah, it kinda is, especially if we allow Power Whip. Very few sets, even the physical, are threatened by or walled by Gliscor, and Gliscor is a very unreliable switch-in anyway because of all the special sets Necturna will be running. And when it comes to Dragonite, I again don't really understand the horror at the OHKOs. Dragonite is KO'd with Stone Edge easily after SR (No! You should never count SR! What are you doing?!) and is 2HKO'd by LO Stone Edge one the switch without SR or a boost. Obviously, Ice Fang makes all that significantly easier, but my argument is that in common battle conditions, or with even remotely good prediction skills, Dragonite is not going to switch in to Shift Gear Necturna with Stone Edge anyway. Salamence dies to +0 Stone edge anyway.

The thing about Ice is that its coverage overlaps significantly with Rock and Grass, which we already have, and doesn't help at all with steels. Physically boosting Necturna is going to have big problems with 3-move coverage like Grass/Ice/Ghost or Grass/Rock/Ice, and ultimately Ice doesn't really add anything much. I would argue that that the most relevant thing about Ice moves, and one of the only relevant things, is the Hydreigon kill.

Seriously, even after all that, I genuinely don't 100% think Ice is a good thing to give Necturna. I just want to make sure we're on the same page about it. bmb's point about 'Ice only being used for something negative, and rarely something positive' does ring somewhat true. I only think we should be more realistic about what advantages it does actually offer.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

There have been a lot of competing visions going on in this thread since my last post, primarily about the Ice- and Electric-type controversial moves. I definitely think that there's enough competing intellectually-backed logic on both sides to merit their location.

I, however, do think that BMB's post is something people should read more closely (at least the top parts). A lot of people believe that "if it isn't broken, it should be allowed", and while that is typically true, there is a concept that needs adhering to. It is my sole responsibility to arbitrate whether an added move hurts the concept (most likely when it makes one type of Sketched move better than others) or otherwise distracts from the concept by adding moves with strategies that distract from the abuse of Sketch. You'll see me comment on moves below with regards to this distraction. Try to keep that in mind when looking at both my decisions and the moves that we're trying to better qualify. Note that this is not a flavor reason; I think that distracting from the concept is a very real problem we need to address in attacking moves. Maybe the distractions aren't as serious as, say, giving the CAP Multitype, but they exist nonetheless.

Anyway, that said, I am allowing Ice Fang and Thunder Fang. After looking at everything, these moves are weak enough that it isn't a big deal. Consider the calcs I posted before about ThunderPunch/Fang and Ice Fang. Consider also that Grass/Ghost/Electric coverage is still walled by Ferrothorn (a popular Steel we didn't really anticipate would do well vs. CAP 2), walled by Magnezone (yeah zone!), and more importantly walled by Hydreigon. Skarmory can even avoid a 2HKO, so it's nothing major. Ice Fang is largely the same, as now you can't hit Heatran for neutral damage, and despite nailing the Dragons, leaves you open to a host of Steels that you would rather have other moves for. Furthermore, the difference in power between Stone Edge and Ice Fang will lend to the former being potent regardless for neutral coverage and damage output despite not being Ice. Note that ThunderPunch and Ice Punch are still controversial.

Next, priority moves. Ice Shard is a pretty terrible move for CAP 2 without STAB and even at +6 with Belly Drum. First of all, Belly Drum enables Scizor to pick off CAP 2 without issue. Outside of that, the move isn't that great, and CAP 2 lacks the capacity to really get through Steels easily without the use of Sketch. For this reason, Ice Shard is allowed, although I personally don't think it adds anything to the CAP (nor does it really distract since it's significantly worse generally than Shadow Sneak). ExtremeSpeed would actually be stronger than Lucario's with a +2 boost, but the big difference is that Lucario has Fighting STAB to deal with Steels. I don't actually think ExtremeSpeed is as big a deal as some people make it out to be, so for now ExtremeSpeed will be controversial. Fake Out is different than these because it lends itself to different strategies that in themselves tend to not make much sense alongside the abuse of Sketch. I was thinking of Fake Out almost-leads with Spikes Sketched or something, but these seem very gimmicky and not really helping the concept any. Indeed, they may actually be distracting, and so Fake Out is disallowed.

Flying-type moves have sort of random coverage alongside CAP 2's STABs. They give neutral hits on Hydreigon and Ferrothorn, but require boosting and the use of Flight Gem in the instance of Acrobatics to really go anywhere. Without STAB, things like Air Slash and Drill Peck will never get used seriously. That said, I think the whole Acrobatics thing lends itself to people trying strategies that distract from the concept and specific abuse of Sketch, so Acrobatics is disallowed. Air Slash and Drill Peck are really bad and won't see serious use if anyone is even motivated to put them on movepools (poor flavor for what it's worth), but they don't do anything bad to CAP 2 so Drill Peck and Air Slash are allowed.

Flash Cannon is arguably the worst coverage move that CAP 2 could use, and Meteor Mash is unreliable to the point that I think anyone using it will be doing themselves a disservice. Since I can't find any competitive or conceptual reason to disallow these moves, I will allow Meteor Mash and Flash Cannon.

Super Fang is the last move to address, then, and really, it doesn't hurt CAP 2's concept any. It gives options to slow and bulky support CAP 2, which is a part of CAP 2 that needs as much help as it can get. I think there is a lot of benefit to Sketching support moves, and there's a lot we can learn from those movesets. I'd like to encourage them, so I will allow Super Fang. If anything, it is furthering the concept in ways we want to explore. That's good.

P.S. Deck I'm not allowing Bulldoze sorry. :P

I'll leave this open for a bit more to see what people have to say about these last changes I've made. Then I will be closing the thread and making the Attacking Moves Poll. This is also your last chance to post about a move that isn't addressed in the OP but is competitive. If I have forgotten anything, it needs to be discussed here. If it's not in the "Allowed" list at the end of this thread but is competitive, then it is "Disallowed" by default. Keep that in mind.

 

[capefeather]

The main issue that I had when discussing the priority moves and some of the other moves was with respect to 4-attack sets. You have the two STABs, the Sketched move, and then something else. If Necturna can play hit/run/pick off to beat one or more of its checks easily, is that what it needs to be viable, or could it be something that pushes it above other sets as the most viable set? This is why I wasn't sure about the priority moves. I'm not sure that Stone Edge (for instance) would be the shoe-in for the fourth move.

I think that your calcs show that Ice Fang is just powerful enough, and so I probably won't be voting for Ice Punch. However, considering how ThunderPunch plays out against Skarmory and Heatran, I'd say it's enough to be allowed. (lol idk how many voters even read this stuff but it's there)

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Fair enough, as long as we have a decision. I'll be pragmatic and move on, still a lot to get through. Though, I highly doubt most of the new allowed moves will be chosen for final movepools anyway, so we'll wait and see.

As for the current controversial moves, I really don't see why we can't just allow Power Whip given the support that it's had and the reasoning that's been given. The two elemental punches I still say should be disallowed. They're distracting moves full stop and don't offer anything significant over the fangs, especially if we don't actually *want* them to be used. Also, Extremespeed is bad but it's still better than Shadow Sneak. Powerful priority of any sort isn't something I want to give to Necturna outside of Sketch, on principle.

Though honestly at this point I think that these four are most likely to just go to the vote. There really isn't anything else to discuss at this point.

 

[Bughouse]

I just have to add that Belly Drum sets are not guaranteed to be revengeable by Scizor if Necturna is given Extremespeed.

Extremespeed hits before Bullet Punch, and at +6 Extremespeed does about 50% to standard CB Scizor. That means that your opponent basically cannot bring Scizor out to the field earlier, for fear of taking previous damage. Also, repeated switch-ins on Stealth Rocks wear down Scizor quit a bit.

To be honest, I don't know what Pokemon in OU would be able to take on all Belly Drum sets reliably if Extremespeed is added to the mix. Ferrothorn can handle them all, I guess, as long as we remain completely committed against giving Necturna any Fire/Fighting moves. But if for example, Brick Break were allowed, Necturna at +6 would 2HKO the entire metagame. But Ferrorthorn can't switch in until the turn AFTER the Belly Drum, because of the threat of Sacred Fire.

Also, I think we need to be careful to not over-rely on Steel-types to counter or at least check each of Necturna's sets. Magnezone will be a very common partner of CAP2.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay then. In closing, I've been convinced that ExtremeSpeed adds too much to Belly Drum sets and I don't think it actually helps the concept any. CAP 2 does not need that sort of priority, and the time it's most useful, it lets it achieve a bit too much. For that reason, I am changing ExtremeSpeed to disallowed.

Anyway, we've covered everything that I think we should. I'm going to put this to poll now. Thanks for your contributions, everyone!