Metagame Benjamin Butterfree

Hazard stacking is very strong in this meta! Crustle and Forretress are pretty much guaranteed 2-4 layers thanks to Sturdy, probably more if the opposing lead is passive/when Custap gets released. Ferrothorn and Scoliopede are promising, too.

Also, Ultra Beasts may lack pre-evolutions, but Beast Boost is a deadly tool in an OM where knocking out an opponent may provide a second, weaker opponent with identical weaknesses right afterward. Same with Magearna and even Moxie Heracross, both of which can snowball on squishier teams after a Shift Gear boost or using Choice Scarf.
 

SaturnZelda

formerly TylerWithNumbers
I have a question. Every time your Pokémon de-evolves, does it activate abilities such as Beast Boost and Soul-Heart?
 
I have a question. Every time your Pokémon de-evolves, does it activate abilities such as Beast Boost and Soul-Heart?
No, they will only activate when it actually faints. (The engine, both on the server and the client, has no way of bringing a Pokémon back from 0 hp, so the format has to prevent this until you run out of devolutions. Only then will Destiny Bond, Beast Boost etc. activate.)
 

SaturnZelda

formerly TylerWithNumbers
No, they will only activate when it actually faints. (The engine, both on the server and the client, has no way of bringing a Pokémon back from 0 hp, so the format has to prevent this until you run out of devolutions. Only then will Destiny Bond, Beast Boost etc. activate.)
Oh, okay. Thanks!
 
Does Intimidate activate each time a Pokemon devolves? If so, Krookodile and Luxray might be a bit more viable for their 3 stage Intimidates.

An interesting thing to see is if Rain remains the best weather, all the other weathers have 2-stage setters (Hippowdon for Sand, Ninetales for Sun, Aurorus & Ninetales-Alola & Abomasnow for Hail) and has multi-stage speed boosted abusers (Excadrill, Stoutland and Sandslash for Sand, Venusaur, Shiftry, Exeggutor for Sun, Beartic and Sandlash-Alola for Hail) that can help the NFEs to remain as threats, while Rain's setters and best abusers only have access to their weather abilities for 1 stage.

Speaking out Stoutland, CB Stoutland seems pretty strong in general, as even Lillipup could probably contribute a bit offensively after being worn down, and Herdier supplies a second Intimidate (assuming that triggers when devolution happens) or backup Sand sweeper after Stoutland goes down.

Trapping in general seems better than ever. Magnezone with either Specs or Scarf seems like the ultimate way to frustrate Steel-types with 3 stages of Magnet Pull, though Magnemite would probably have a hard time contributing without Scarf, and Dugtrio in theory should have a larger trapping range now that it has the possibility of following up being KO'd with a Diglett (potentially Sash'd if Dug took prior damage, or CB maintaining some power).

Some sets I think might be worthwhile:
Scolipede @ Eviolite / Insect Plate / Toxic Plate / Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Protect / Endeavor
- Pin Missile / Poison Jab

If you plan on using Endeavor, use it with Focus Sash. Once devolution happens you get a full heal for sash which can help set up Endeavor and an extra turn of laying spikes. Pin Missile and Poison Jab are its main STAB options, as the whole evolution chain has access to these moves so Scolipede and the NFEs aren't entirely passive.
Crobat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Super Fang
- Brave Bird / U-Turn
- Defog
- Roost

Super Fang means even Zubat is capable of causing pain, and you also get a 3-stage defogger to keep hazards under control. Could maybe fit some other utility options like Toxic, Tailwind or Taunt here, and could be EV'd for max Def or SpD instead for increased longevity across all 3 stages.
Ninetales @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Hypnosis / Psyshock / other

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain / Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Growth / Sleep Powder

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Explosion
- Seed Bomb / Solar Beam
- Swords Dance / Defog

Two 3-life Chlorophyll sweepers with plenty of setup and support options available, and naturally Ninetales as a 2-life sun setter that can keep sun going for quite a while. Ninetales is a glorified Drought-bot, if it or Vuplix does anything more than provide Sun then they have exceeded expectations. If Venusaur is using Sleep Powder, Ninetales really should drop Hypnosis for something else.
Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast / other move
- Trick

Scarf Gengar looks better than ever with two moderately fast forms with decent SpA across all 3 stages for revenge-killing and cleaning. Focus Blast might not be preferable as only Gengar has access to it. Specs might work for Gengar too, but the NFE stages might struggle with faster teams.


Edit: Also, will there be any considerations of dropping some Uber Legendaries at some point? With only 1 life, the weakest Ubers might not be as strong as they used to against all the multi-stage Pokemon available
 
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Does Intimidate activate each time a Pokemon devolves?
As I recall, AAA/BH mechanics is that if you have an Intimidate Manectric and Mega Evolve it then you get a second Intimidate even though the ability "hasn't changed". I would expect the same here.
 

charizard8888

Catch The Wave
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Megazard Y as we all know is a Special powerhouse capable of breaking walls with ease
(I hope it works in this way such that the prevos get Solar Power)
Charmeleon and Charmander can take advantage of Drought with Soalr Power after Zard Y faints and hit real hard for a NFE and LC mon's standard
They get all the moves except for Solar Beam, you can replace it with Air Cutter or Ancient Power so that Charmeleon and Charmander get all the moves but I like Zard Y with Solar Beam


Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Fang / Psychic Fangs


Though the Speed boost gets lost and you have to use Protect again but still the evolutionary line can do loads of damage
Waterium / Darkinium Z on Sharpedo is another option to grab a KO
 
The engine, both on the server and the client, has no way of bringing a Pokémon back from 0 hp, so the format has to prevent this until you run out of devolutions. Only then will Destiny Bond, Beast Boost etc. activate.
A recent client change means that a patched server can show a Pokémon reduce to 0 HP and still devolve it. However, all this means for ROM is that I removed the 1 HP workaround; I haven't actually considered activating Battle Bond/Beast Boost/Destiny Bond/Moxie/Soul Heart on a devolution, although it could be done...
 
So i am curious how does lunar dance/memento work do u faint or do u just devolve?
also, this thread just like dancer lol has been inactive, so i want to throw up some dissussion

What are some threatening pokemon in the meta, based on their full evolution line?

edit: removed replay i showed, look at chartung's instead
 
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7benjaminbutterfree-258523
they are useless, unless used on a pokemon with no pre-evolutions left.
You weren't looking closely at the replay. Healing Wish did in fact activate, it just didn't accomplish anything since Bisharp was already at full health. I did some testing, and based on the following replays (1, 2, 3, 4), I figured out how it actually works: if a Pokémon other than the pre-evolution of the Healing Wish user is active at the end of the turn on which Healing Wish is used, the new Pokémon will be fully healed.
 
What if I select a move my pre-evolved form doesn't know, and then am forced to devolve before the move is used?
What if a pre-evolved pokemon can't learn any of the moves the evolved form knows?
What happens if a pokemon is in the middle of a multi turn move, and then devolves and loses that move?

My suggestion would to treat each lost move as being permanently disabled. It would solve all of those scenarios without extra complex logic.

If I change a pokemon's type with soak, will it's type revert when it de-evolves?
if I change a pokemon's ability with skill swap, will it revert when it de-evolves?
Does leech seed, ghost curse, taunt, encore, or disable continue to work after it de-evolves?
 
What if I select a move my pre-evolved form doesn't know, and then am forced to devolve before the move is used?
What if a pre-evolved pokemon can't learn any of the moves the evolved form knows?
What happens if a pokemon is in the middle of a multi turn move, and then devolves and loses that move?
If I change a pokemon's type with soak, will it's type revert when it de-evolves?
if I change a pokemon's ability with skill swap, will it revert when it de-evolves?
Does leech seed, ghost curse, taunt, encore, or disable continue to work after it de-evolves?
As currently implemented on ROM:
If it can't learn any of the moves then it is forced to Struggle.
If it's in the middle of a multi-turn move then it should be able to finish that move.
When a Pokémon devolves its type and Ability are reset, just as with any other forme-changing effect.
Other volatiles are not removed when it devolves.
 
some interesting effects that i found after playtesting

-Focus Sash only activates on the the smallest stage of the evolution chain, but Sturdy activates on every pokemon that has it
-Similarly, Ash-Greninja only transforms if it KOes the smallest stage of an evolution chain
-Correcting a post that i made over a year ago, Ash Greninja does not devolve into Frogadier, instead it faints normally

If a mon runs Eviolite, will it get the boosts after de-evolution?
Sorry for the very late response, but yes it does

i made this post to hopefully get some discussion rolling
 
How does Explosion or Self-Destruct work if the Pokemon isn't in a lower evolution state? Does it still deal the damage since it doesn't faint? Is Golem-A viable this way?
 

MattL

I have discovered a truly remarkable CT which this box is t-
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Just like last gen, I think the way to go is using the meta against itself. Having your Pokemon de-evolve can be a liability, even if the pre-evolution is good, if the opposing team is actively equipped to take advantage of it. For example:

https://pokepast.es/258efe74b893ee3e

This was thrown together quickly but illustrates my point. The key is to take advantage of your opponent's pre-evolutions, and obviously the best way to do that is with setup Pokemon with Moxie-esque abilities. None of these Pokemon have any pre-evolutions, which is intentional - I don't want the opponent taking advantage of my pre-evolutions, which an HO team wouldn't be able to handle.

Standard suicide lead.
Chose Speed-boosting Sum CM Blacephalon because it sets up on the Chansey line, and being able to boost Speed allows you to not be revenged by Weavile if you have a Sub up. Forces Scizor lines and many other things out, allowing you to set up.
The Magearna set was chosen for similar reasons, and Magearna is incredible here with its bulk, coverage, and ability to quickly boost Speed and Special Attack. Sets up on the Weavile line and many other things.
Celesteela is probably the next best choice. Ground immunity, bulky, boosts Speed quickly, and is able to snowball Attack boosts. Celesteela is still heavy enough after Autotomize, especially since pre-evos are lighter, and you have the Z anyway to get a solid 160 power hit off.
This team needs a Scarf for immediate Speed control, and Kartana is perfect because aside from it being able to revenge kill tons of things, it can also clean up very easily late game by snowballing.
Scarf Rotom-W completes this team very nicely. Much needed Water and Fire resist, Volt Switches around, and also Tricks the opponent a Scarf, making them even more setup fodder for Blacephalon, Magearna, or Celesteela. Scarf Twave also provides an emergency out, though this could be Wisp.

Again, this is very preliminary and theoretical, but I feel like a lot of the standard "my mons have good pre-evolutions!" teams would get massacred by this team or a similar variant.

Edit: apparently Beast Boost only activates after the basic pokemon dies so this team doesn't work... oops
 
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Just like last gen, I think the way to go is using the meta against itself. Having your Pokemon de-evolve can be a liability, even if the pre-evolution is good, if the opposing team is actively equipped to take advantage of it. For example:

https://pokepast.es/258efe74b893ee3e

This was thrown together quickly but illustrates my point. The key is to take advantage of your opponent's pre-evolutions, and obviously the best way to do that is with setup Pokemon with Moxie-esque abilities. None of these Pokemon have any pre-evolutions, which is intentional - I don't want the opponent taking advantage of my pre-evolutions, which an HO team wouldn't be able to handle.
No, they will only activate when it actually faints. (The engine, both on the server and the client, has no way of bringing a Pokémon back from 0 hp, so the format has to prevent this until you run out of devolutions. Only then will Destiny Bond, Beast Boost etc. activate.)
As far as I'm aware the philosophy of this team doesn't really work if Beast Boost doesn't activate until the final evolution is KOed? Abilities like Beast Boost and Moxie only activate after the final de-evolution faints. I think snowballing sweepers are actually overall less effective in this meta as in standard play, as your sweep can be cut short since a mon can attack the same turn that it gets de-evolved. And if you run a de-evolving sweeper with Moxie or something you lose all your boosts upon de-evolving anyways. Sturdy also seems like a really effective ability in this as well, and it could easily result in an evolutionary line taking like 5-6 hits to actually take out.

I think the concept of "taking advantage" of pre-evolutions with setup sweepers doesn't really work in this metagame from what I've played of it. Setting up sweeps is very difficult since certain mons can take many hits to kill thanks to their de-evolutions and they can stop your sweep.
 

Ivy

resident enigma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributor
Yeah, as it's implemented now (and presumably forever), any ability that activates on KO both by an attacker (beast boost, moxie, etc) and the one being KOed (Aftermath) only trigger when the Basic Pokémon dies.
 

dragicmagic

Banned deucer.
If a Pokémon changes type, such as through porygon z's conversion, will it go back to normal when it devolves?
 
If a Pokémon changes type, such as through porygon z's conversion, will it go back to normal when it devolves?
I would think it would go back to its original typing given that stat changes go away after devolving. I could be wrong and I don't have a replay to back me up.
 
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