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BH Balanced Hackmons

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by E4 Flint, Nov 20, 2016.

  1. Rumors

    Rumors

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,126
    So, for funsies, I'm curious, how many viable teams are affected by the Primaldon ban? Anyone wanna submit data to me, since I kinda wanna gather it up for curiosity sake and find out. Just want to know how many teams needed significant changes out of your selection of viable teams, and, of those, how many were using Don itself.

    For example, I had five teams out of eight viable teams directly impacted, with four of them using Don itself. Those numbers don't count my silly, meme, experimental, out-dated, and bad teams.


    ---------


    Meanwhile, Primaldon's removal is gonna have some major changes. Some predictions of mine are...

    -Fire and Ground-typed offense get really diversified and reduced in power, since, if I remember correctly, no other Fire or Ground types have such high base Attack nor mixed offenses. Expect to see Reshiram, Mega-Blazekin, Charizard-Y, Red Orb Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega-Garchomp to fill in.

    -Random Water-coverage will be less common since it really doesn't hit much beyond 'Don that's relevant. This means Burns will probably be less common due to fewer random Scalds.

    -Fur Coat becomes less common. It's still a really good ability with plenty of use, but the opportunity cost for running something else isn't so steep.

    -Fire-immunity loses viability, for the same reasons. Primordial Sea may stick around to really tick off Red Orb Groudon if it tries to hang out, but that'll be specific anti-Groudon stuff mostly, I think.

    -Zygarde-C and Giratina become a bit less common, especially as Fur Coat users, since there isn't so much pressure from Banded Deo Land V-Creates.

    -Electric-tyes see viability increase. Zekrom especially, as most Ground-types will be weak to its Dragon STAB. Manectric and Xurkitree no longer need a Water-typed move just for Primaldon, freeing up their moveslots and prediction quite a bit and lets them be more flexible. Ampharos-Mega might start seeing some use.

    -Likewise, Volt Switch sees an increase in viability. Volt Switching onto Zygarde is a lot less detrimental than onto Primaldon, especially with Choice.

    -Ferrothorn loses viability? At least FF Ferothorn. Blazekin's STAB is super-effective, so if it ends up being the main Fire-type, might see more FF Venusaur instead. Prankster Ferro becomes more viable though by virtue of better opportunity cost now.

    And uhhh... I'll probably think of a dozen more but, well, don't have them on my head right now. Tired from work and all!
  2. SuperSkylake

    SuperSkylake

    Joined:
    May 6, 2016
    Messages:
    221
    I think a lot of sheer force mons will feel better since they don't have to run coverage to beat pdon. Mewtwo can drop Earth Power, relying on the much stronger Blue Flare to hit Steels, and allowing FF steels to improof their sets, while not having to run earth power or steam just to hit pdon with (they can now run a boosting move, spore, and retain good coverage with stab move+blue flare+ice beam).

    Steel types just got a good amount better since they don't have to always be trying to pivot out against a predicted switchin to pdon

    Mega Garchomp's wallbreaking sets will become some of the toughest ground attacks to switch into. Unfortunately though, the PH set from gen 6 won't, because of Core Enforcer. Though perhaps a bulky PH Tapu Fini set may become more viable, since there is no pdon to switch into a moonblast and just pwn it with a banded Thousand Arrows.

    One mon that will be hit in viability is Mega Swampert, whose Fur Coat set could handle most physical pdon variants, even the ones that carried Fleur Cannon just to bop Dragons. I don't know what will become of it now, I suppose it will mostly return to the role of imposterproofing sweepers with Sap Sipper. It makes an okay Fur Coat wall, but it has very few resistances, and the bulk from other more common FC users is much better.

    Magic Guard Mega Diancie should see a bit of a rise in viability. Pdon had enough bulk to live any move from the smash+flair blitz+light of ruin+head smash at +2. I predict Mega Diancie will become overall better in this meta, especially since it can now run V Create more safely to dent steels a lot better than did Precipice Blades while not having to worry about being stopped in its tracks by pdon.
  3. Chessking345

    Chessking345

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    26
    So with PDon gone I tried to make a team utilizing the above specs Pogre which appreciates PDon gone (Red Orb is still annoying). Any suggestions/recommendations will be great! I know this team isn't that good :P
    Team (open)

    [​IMG]
    Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Primordial Sea
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Water Spout
    - Steam Eruption
    - Volt Switch
    - Ice Beam

    So this was the first mon I added. Obvious reasons.
    [​IMG]
    Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Primordial Sea
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Water Spout
    - Earth Power
    - Volt Switch
    - Moongeist Beam

    And another one, with slightly different moveset that complements the first Pogre, EPower to hit Red Orb Don, Moongeist to hit Sturdinja and stuff.
    [​IMG]
    Groudon @ Red Orb
    Ability: Electric Surge
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - V-create
    - Thousand Arrows
    - Roost
    - Bolt Strike

    Red Orb Groudon easily improofs Pogre #1 while just being a great attacker with V-Creates under sun. Electric Surge to avoid sleep and boost Bolt Strike.
    [​IMG]
    Garchomp-Mega @ Safety Goggles
    Ability: Desolate Land
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - V-create
    - Thousand Arrows
    - Dragon Hammer
    - Slack Off

    I was looking for a strong ground type to improof Pogre #2 and so Garchomp-Mega was picked. Desoland improofs while powering up V-Create.
    [​IMG]
    Zygarde-Complete @ Darkinium Z
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
    Sassy/Impish Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Wish
    - Parting Shot
    - Stealth Rock
    - Defog
    To improof the two previous mons I used Zygod. It easily takes V-Creates and Dragon Hammers while providing the team with SR, Defog, and Wish support (most useful with the two POgres). Darkinium Z lets it use Z-Parting Shot while Regenerator makes it a good wish passer.
    [​IMG]
    Giratina @ Griseous Orb
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Sassy Nature
    - Spectral Thief
    - Core Enforcer
    - Shore Up
    - U-turn
    Lastly my team needed a set-up check so I used Unaware Giratina. Set is obvious(?). Also can help Zygod sponge hits after Parting Shot
    Phat Albert and Anaconja like this.
  4. RNGIsFatal

    RNGIsFatal

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    697


    I have initially thought the game would be much like it was in Generation 6.

    But I keep forgetting the fact that we have full EV's and stuff like Psychic Surge / Sungeist.

    Anyways,


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    These high-BST squad were already the most notable threats that one must prepare for, and after Primal Groudon is gone, they will have one less rival when it comes to competing the title of "unpredictable wallbreakers". MMX will run mixed wallbreaker set as usual, and I think MMY will start running mixed sets as well to get past stuff like Solgaleo and Registeel, since it can no longer be reliant on Pdon nor Magnet Pull. Now, Mega Rayquaza will still be inferior to both Mewtwo's outsides Aerilate because when it comes to other sets like mixed Adaptability or something, it is harder to Imposterproof, always need to run something like V-create, outsped by Mewtwo's who Mega Rayquaza competes as an attacker, and is worn down easier due to Stealth Rock weakness.


    [​IMG]

    This is an interesting 'mon we got here; I ignored Mega Garchomp for a while because full EV forced it to run Choice Band to grab guaranteed OHKO on Pdon, but its dual STAB still let it 2HKO almost anything. But I see couple major issues with Garchomp: first, -ate invalidates any kind of setup that Garchomp attempts to execute, and second, imposterproofing this guy is even harder than imposterproofing Mega Rayquaza to certain extent, especially if one is using Mold Breaker. That is the point where you should run Fairyceus to improof and trigger the hell out or jrm. Third, Garchomp is very reliant on forcing switches. P much nothing in this metagame resists Thousand Arrows while being able to handle Dragon-type moves... but after all Choice Band Dragon Hammer doesn't OHKO Giratina or Zygarde-C, and the only reliable OHKO it can make is using Ground-type move against Solgaleo and Registeel which means the whole situation becomes very prediction reliant, and thus, Garchomp must be brought in safely against Steel-types and force switches to effectively break walls, otherwise it will be hit by Core Enforcer / random coverage & status moves / etc.


    [​IMG]

    I will be honest with this, I have been running this on almost every team now because just stapling V-create onto this princess thingy allows it to theoretically hit everything like a truck. I tried walling Diancie with prim sea Celesteela but Life Orb Boomburst has a roll to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and stuff, and that is the point when I realized absence of Primal Groudon will leave Diancie in top of top-tier threat position just like it was in Generation 6. Red Orb Pdon is still a thing but it takes much more damage from that good old AV Regen Pdon so it will stay and press recover every time it switches into Boomburst, so it isn't even reliable solution due to its tendency to screw momentum.
    tl;dr: Diancie appreciates Pdon being gone while Steel-types may start running Flash-Fire to counter Diancie because Pdon is banned and what is wrong with running Flash Fire now lol.


    [​IMG]

    I'm not sure if this thing will change a lot. Kyogre will be just the same as it used to be imo. PH sets will be checked easily, Fur Coat is imposter fodder, but AV Ogre will remain as a goat set.


    [​IMG]

    Okay I tried exploring this chicken a little bit but it is bad. I would say full EV keeps Blaziken from making a comeback. It fails to outspeed offensive threats without Scarf while Tinted Lens doesn't even OHKO Mega Rayquaza and needs Stealth Rock to get in a close range to OHKO MMY. Running Band is gonna be a dead weight against offense and unlike Pdon, it will still struggle breaking Giratina and Zygarde even if they don't carry Fur Coat.
    tldr: Band sucks against offense and scarf is dead weight against walls. Never a good replacement for Pdon


    [​IMG][​IMG]

    People say "these two fat dragons will lose niche because they will no longer sponge V-create spam with Fur Coat". I disagree with that. Pdon always managed to break these two guys using Pixilate / Refrigerate / Sheer Force / Contrary. Giratina and Zygarde-C rather appreciates Pdon being gone because they can now run something other than Fur Coat AND actually end up successfully walling something. PH Giratina will return as one of the best walls (prevalence of PH Giratina already implies this) that completely negates chips from walls and absorbs mediocre damage while dealing with No Guard shenanigans, while Zygarde-C can abuse its bulk to function effectively with Unaware, Soundproof, or even AV Regen.


    [​IMG]

    Loves life
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  5. ElMustacho

    ElMustacho

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    146
    You forgot Xurkitree.

    Xurkitree is the ugly, forgotten brother of -ate Diancie, Rayquaza and Kyurem B/W. But oh god it hits stuff hard beyond reason. Unlike the other -ate it can have terrain on its side which is disgusting.

    Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Galvanize
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Boomburst
    - Moongeist Beam
    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam

    I ran this with Electric Surge support. You may say that MMY overwrites that but from my experiance MMY doesn't switch on actually anything. The whole strategy is nuking the opponent with Boomburst and the other 3 moves target exactly 4 pokemon.
    Moongiest Beam on Shedinja, Earth Power on Imposter and Groudon Priamal, Ice Beam on Zygarde.
    Anything else dies to Boomburst.
    Even if they have, like, Giratina that resists Boomburst you don't have to predict at all.
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina in Electric Terrain: 293-345 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 280-330 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
    You see? Resist outdamages SE! It's outrageous!
    It scores OHKO on AV Solgaleo. WTF.
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo in Electric Terrain: 478-564 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Xurkitree is unexplored, I tell you. With a Ground type mon gone, it is going to wreak havoc on the tier.

    The imposterproof is Volt Absorb Gyarados-Mega.
    IronedSandwich likes this.
  6. wishes

    wishes ms. creme if you're nasty!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

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  7. RNGIsFatal

    RNGIsFatal

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    Somebody correct me if I am wrong by any chances, but in BH Discord, MnM Discord and other places, we have been attempting to fix the issue because Techno Blast should originally not be affected by -ate. In other words, it should be fine as it is.
    thesecondbest, tegrof19 and wishes like this.
  8. Kris

    Kris
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    That’s the correct mechanic. I implemented it.

    wishes

    E: to clarify, any moves that have the chance to change type are not effected by -ates.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  9. jrm115

    jrm115

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    is this a newly discovered thing? it looks like its gonna fuck most self improof sweepers, like galvanize pdon normalize gengar sash deo=a galvanize sceptile, and other perfectly viable things. is it gen6/7 specific or???
  10. Kris

    Kris
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    It’s been known since gen 6, it was just never implemented correctly
    motherlove likes this.
  11. tegrof19

    tegrof19

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    to clarify, judgement is the same correct?
    RNGIsFatal likes this.
  12. MAMP

    MAMP

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    yes, same with weather ball and revelation dance
  13. The_Real_w2www

    The_Real_w2www

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    The idea behind this team came when in chat somebody asked “is regirock viable if it uses sand stream?” I answered that “it still dies too fast”, because this was my experience whenever i went up against a regirock in low ladder. But then a few days later, I decided to try to make a viable regirock set. It’s defense is stellar but i needed a way to fix that horrible sp def. So I slapped on both assault vest and sand stream before realizing that without recovery, it still dies. Thats when it dawned on me. In order to make regirock viable, i need to have somebody else set the sand for it, that way it could run regen. Thats when I made this surprisingly decent sand team.


    ROCK AND ROLL (open)


    Regirock @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Spectral Thief
    - Sunsteel Strike
    - U-turn
    - Diamond Storm

    Tyranitar-Mega @ Safety Goggles
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Shore Up
    - U-turn
    - Knock Off
    - Spore

    Heracross-Mega @ Choice Band
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - U-turn
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Hammer
    - V-create

    Groudon @ Red Orb
    Ability: Download
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - V-create
    - Precipice Blades
    - Shift Gear
    - Bolt Strike

    Aerodactyl-Mega @ Life Orb
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Head Smash
    - Brave Bird
    - Volt Tackle
    - Flare Blitz

    Aggron-Mega @ Smooth Rock
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Sunsteel Strike
    - Shore Up
    - U-turn




    1.Regirock, the main star. His main role is an offensive pivot. This boi can tank a suprising amount of special attacks all day long. But Its movepool still requires a lil more work.

    2.Tyranitar-Mega, the first sand setter. Nothing special, just some knock off + spore shenanigans. Can be used to outplay normalize.

    3.Heracross-Mega, THE BIG DADDY. While going through a list of sand related moves, I came across “Sand Rush”. I decided to slap it onto a slow nuke and Heracross was my choice. And boy did meet my expectations. This thing kills nearly everything. MMY? DED. Most ray sets? DED. Zygod? DED. Any normal type? DED. Steel types? DED. And on top of that, walls like Giratina or m-Audino can’t even switch into because its guaranteed 2HKO. Tl;dr this bug squishes shit.

    4. Groudon, imposter proofing. This boi is here for imposter proofing my heracross and basically most of the team. Sun resets the sand, preventing my opponent from using it. Also deals with pesky steel and water types.

    5.Aerodactyl-mega, the small daddy. A great late game cleaner after everything has taken a beating. Great for pressuring anything slower

    6. Agron-mega, my second sand setter, my usual lead. Set up stealth rocks to grab some easy damage. Sunsteel for some damage. Nothing special.


    So ya this team is hella fun. The only problem is that its not all too reliable against set up sweepers. Most of the time I can tank through it, but sometimes the team gets shredded. So uh ya any suggestions to the regirock would be highly welcome and ya.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
    Silver_Lucario42 likes this.
  14. Rumors

    Rumors

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    Regirock is pretty much only viable in sand or with Assault Vest in normal situations. It likely has some niche uses beyond that, but its otherwise generally outclassed by Registeel.

    Though, if you're experimenting with sand, maybe considering looking at this for inspiration. It's a Gen VI team, as I've not tried sand yet this gen, so grains of salt and the only purposes for this is using for ideas. (Or using on the LCOM ladder this month, but shh.)

    Show Hide

    Aerodactyl-Mega @ Smooth Rock
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 4 SpD / 100 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Diamond Storm
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - U-turn

    Cresselia @ Safety Goggles
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Heart Swap
    - Baton Pass
    - Recover
    - Wish

    Regirock @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Heal Order
    - Parting Shot
    - Entrainment
    - Defog

    Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Safety Goggles
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Spore
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psystrike
    - Secret Sword

    Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - King's Shield
    - Knock Off
    - Circle Throw
    - Sucker Punch

    Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Thousand Arrows
    - V-create
    - Extreme Speed
    - Trick


    -Aerodactyl is an offensive sand setter, outpacing most offensive threats and able to attack or pivot out with low risk to itself. If they pivot on your pivot, so what? You can dictate their switch with yours. This set was invented by Keep It Playful who, sadly, has been inactive for a while now. There was a reason for the weird spread, but I no longer remember why. Not that it matters in full EV meta though.

    -Cress was standard anti-set-up and Wish support. Not likely too viable in the current meta due to Moongiest and Power Trip, so I'd maybe sub something like Mega-Audino if I was going for minimal changes to the team.

    -Bouncyrock. Entrainment can maybe be swapped for Core Enforcer these days, but Entrainment does hit Fairies... Other than that, standard Magic Bounce wall. Needs sand up to stand up to special attackers and can easily bring in Mega-Dactyl to reset it.

    -Mewtwo sets hazards, sleep threats, and pokes at things. Might not quite be threatening enough completely unboosted in full EV meta though and may warrant tweaking or replacing entirely.

    -Yveltal is a Poison Heal set from the mind of Adrian Marin. This is a perfect carbon copy of his if memory serves right. General pain in the rear that disrupts the enemy team's flow so much. Set works perfectly fine in current meta as I've used it on modern teams, though recommend swapping Sucker Punch for Spectral Thief.

    -Primaldon doing yet another set stupidly well, being basically a Scarf + Band set. Its banned in both Gen VI and VII, so this one doesn't quite work anymore. Originally, in X/Y, this Pokemon was Terrakion since it benefited well from the Sand boost, getting bulkier in the process plus more dangerous. No promises Terrakion works in Gen VII in any role or niche though as I've yet to try it.

    Use or adapt this team at your own risk, merely sharing for informational and inspirational purposes. Team also needs more Shore Up.

  15. RNGIsFatal

    RNGIsFatal

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    697
    [​IMG]
    Doublade @ Eviolite / Rocky Helmet / Safety Goggles
    Ability: Mummy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Spectral Thief / Knock Off
    - Defog / Entrainment / Toxic
    - Milk Drink
    - U-turn

    Hmm...
    It has been a while since I started using this. Mummy pretty goat ability, it just throws fingers to all AV regen users like Solgaleo and Rocky Helmet helps chipping them even better. Say, Solgaleo takes like 45 from MMY's Moongeist, touches this Doublade, and has its Regenerator suppressed, then it's go'n think twice before coming in again. Also this kid does nice job handling Regigigas because Regigigas needs like +5 or +6 (not sure) to OHKO Doublade with Knock Off which means Doublade can use Entrainment. Also touching Doublade means Regigigas will lose A LOT of health after Poison Heal is gone.

    I mean, I'm talking about Mummy in general. P dank ability. Stops U-turn spams and screws momentum. If you would, try this and let me know if this works well.
    tegrof19 and IronedSandwich like this.
  16. Kadabrium

    Kadabrium

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
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    628
    why use this over giratina? it doesnt do that much better against the mainly special attackers that giratina is weak to.
  17. Willdbeast

    Willdbeast

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
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    138
    Also this maybe isn't as relevant this gen but if you can switch into the fake of a fake speed -ate mon it basically forces them out (although I'd run a different mon for that aka one that doesn't die to V-create).
    I'd also consider using something that doesn't mind knock off so you can switch into knock off PH Audino and friends without risking too much.

    Not sure if a similar set has been posted but I'll go ahead with this anyway (seriously who can remember all this rubbish?):

    [​IMG]
    Solgaleo @ Steelium Z / Saftey Goggles / Generic bulkymon item
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Anchor Shot
    - Core Enforcer
    - Stealth Rock / Hazardy things
    - Roost

    This set came about as a result of trying to find a reliable bulky hazard setter. Core Enforcer helps with Magic Bounce users and it's STAB Anchor Shot scares away Magic Bounce fairies who would otherwise thwart your efforts and also prevents silly mind games switching between Magic Bouncers and fairies etc as well as having good pp to reliably threaten Audino over a long match. Steelium allows a possible OHKO on Mega Audino and my team needed a Trick blocker.

    Flash Fire maximises its usefulness as a wall allowing it to check most contrary and if you're feeling cheesy trap them as they click Overheat. Being immune to will-o-wisp isn't a bad thing either. Goggles helps more with beating Spore contrary shenanigans.
  18. OM!

    OM!

    Joined:
    May 1, 2016
    Messages:
    346
    What about Contrary Blaziken since it has STAB Superpower and V-Create?

    Also, will Ho-Oh now regain more usage with a Contrary Dragon Ascent, V-Create, etc. set? Or Magic Guard? I know STAB 1K Arrows was an issue for it since it wasn’t immune. Superpower would allow it to handle Tyranitar-Mega, and Ice Hammer lets it hit Zygarde Core.

    Also, people can just Illusion Groudon with a Red Orb and be Imposter proof. Something Groudon-Primal didn’t like to have to change its ability for (cough Galvanize cough). Download is too situational.
  19. Rumors

    Rumors

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    1,126
    So, I kinda started compiling a list of super-niche Pokemon for my own usage. But, then I thought, I might as well put it in a readable format and share it with others so that someone else might be able to make use of the information. I'm posting this here because I'm not sure it's Central Resource worthy, since this is the kind of information the average player probably won't get much use out of (they need to focus on not-super-niche Pokemon). So, here I am, presenting an unofficial "E-Rank" and "F-Rank" tiers. Primary requirements for getting on here is not being in the current VR and having some sort of function. I've probably missed some stuff or have some stuff missplaced, feel free to shout at me about that.

    "But these Pokemon all suck, why are you even mentioning them."

    Well theoretical complainer, that's kinda the point. These are Pokemon that, the majority of them, suck a lot of the time, but can shine on the right team or situation. So yes, they'll probably suck for your uses, but someone else might find value from them in the right instances. ...and I mean actual, competitive value, not just meme stuff.


    E-Rank (open)

    E-Rank Pokemon are those that have notable niches, can mimic other Pokemon rather well while displaying unique qualities to set it apart from what its mimicking, or does a few unique jobs other meta Pokemon can't do. However, they all have some major flaw or another that holds them back from being typical picks for most teams and therefore often have the team built around them or are chosen last to make-up for a team with unusual weaknesses.

    The main differentiating fact is an E-rank Pokemon can pair with most teammates with a little bit of work while F-rank Pokemon only fit on very specific teams with very particular needs.

    Pokemon (HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe Typing / 2nd Typing ) - This is an example of how things are listed.

    Absol-Mega ( 65 / 150 / 60 / 115 / 60 / 115 Dark) - As a pure Dark-type with relatively high attack power, Absol makes for a good Prankster-immune Sashsmash user as it already doesn't care about the loss in bulk. It can also run a number of other offensive sets, such as Pursuit trapping Specs Psychic Terrain Mewtwo-Y. Its base 115 speed is a little on the slow side for a glass cannon, however, limiting its usefulness unboosted.

    Aegislash-Blade (60 / 150 / 50 / 150 / 50 / 60 Ghost/Steel) - Good typing and offenses that give it a huge amount of potential to run a number of threatening sets that could be physical, mixed, or special. However, slow speed practically relegates it to Trick Room and its awful bulk makes it hard to use safely.

    Aggron-Mega (70 / 140 / 230 / 60 / 80 / 50 Steel) - Largely serves as an alternative to Steelix-Mega that lacks the weaknesses of the Ground-type and therefore runs sets similar to it. Aggron, however, also loses out on the benefits of the Ground-typing too.

    Alakazam-Mega (55 / 50 / 65 / 175 / 105 / 150 Psychic) - Serves as an alternative to Mewtwo-Y, trading some power for speed. Its main gimmick is it outspeeds nearly all other threats, notably other Mewtwo-Y, making it very difficult to revenge KO unless the opponents have some way to slow Alakazam down or boost their own speed.

    Blissey (255 / 10 / 10 / 75 / 135 / 55 Normal) - Lack of Eviolite means its outclassed by Chansey. It does non-Eviolite sets better, but as Chansey wants Eviolite 99% of the time, and Blissey cannot mimic non-Imposter sets well without it, it's generally not used unless you don't mind alerting your opponent that your Imposter might be carrying a niche anti-anti-Imposter item like a Plate. However, it is still the second best bulky Imposter in the meta.

    Camerupt-Mega (70 / 120 / 100 / 145 / 105 / 20 Fire/Ground) - A dirt slow, special attacking alternative to Primal Groudon. Its primary use is for Trick Room teams, but it can also mimic most of Primal Groudon's special attacking sets as well. It also serves as one of the slowest pivots in the meta, although lacks the bulk to specialize in this regard.

    Chandelure (60 / 55 / 90 / 145 / 90 / 80 Ghost/Fire) - Good attacking power and unique Ghost/Fire typing gives it some interesting uses that is easy to self-Imposter proof, granting it some better match-up options than Gengar, at the cost of some worse ones. However, low bulk and speed make it difficult to use well.

    Charizard-Y (78 / 104 / 78 / 159 / 115 / 100 Fire/Flying) - A special attacking Aerilate user with STAB on Fire-attacks, giving it better STAB coverage than Rayquaza-Mega. Its lack of speed, lower power, and difficulty going mixed leaves it a bit wanting in serving as an Aerilate abuser. Charizard-Y can perform non-Aerilate sets as well, often using tweaked Reshiram sets, with reasonable effectiveness due to its power, but struggles with its speed.

    Blaziken-Mega (80 / 160 / 80 / 130 / 80 / 100 Fire/Fighting) - Perhaps the best physical Contrary typing in the meta, it also stands poised to potentially try to claim Primaldon's legacy. It mimics many of the now-banned Pokemon's sets, usually replacing Ground with Fighting attacks, although its lower overall power and bulk make it unable to fill its big brother's shoes completely.

    Darkrai (70 / 90 / 90 / 135 / 90 / 125 Dark) - Fastest special attacking pure Dark-type in the tier, though its power and bulk leave it in a bit of an undesirable position due to a lack of high-powered Dark-type STABs.

    Darmitan-Z (105 / 30 / 105 / 140 / 105 / 55 Fire/Psychic) - Its typing makes it a great check to certain Mewtwo sets, namely those carrying a combination of Psychic, Fighting, Fairy, and Fire moves. It also has the typing to act as a good general Contrary check, as the only Contrary staple that it doesn't resist is Dragon Ascent. However, its other sets function very similarly to Solgaleo, who is not weak to Stealth Rock and sports a better set of resistances in general, making it difficult to find a team Darmitan better serves.

    Gardevoir-(Mega) (68 / 65 / 65 / 125 / 115 / 80 Psychic/Fairy| 68 / 85 / 65 / 165 / 135 / 100 Psychic/Fairy) - Primarily serves as mega-evolution abuser, running sets such as Simple Shell Smash before evolving to get Pixilate for a sweep. It also has a relatively good Contrary typing with its STABs. However, it finds stiff competition with Diancie-Mega as a Fairy and Mewtwo-Y as a Psychic, making it difficult to find its niche, especially with it being considerably slower than either of them.

    (Primal) Groudon (100 / 150 / 140 / 100 / 90 / 90 Ground| 100 / 180 / 160 / 150 / 90 / 90 Ground/Fire) - Fur Coat sets act as a decent check to Primal Groudon, but its main allure is to use a Red Orb to achieve the otherwise banned Primal Groudon form. It also runs fire and forget abilities such as Download, Intimidate, and Misty Surge when using Red Orb.

    Heatran ( 91 / 90 / 106 / 130 / 106 / 77 Fire/Steel) - Its typing makes it a great check to certain sets, particularly Refrigerate and Pixilate users. It can also run an anti-Imposter set with such abilities and Earth Plate Judgement. Despite its typing and usable 600 BST, its stats are not distributed well for the meta and its 4x Ground weakness on an otherwise good-typing make it tricky to utilize.

    Houndoom(-Mega) (75 / 90 / 50 / 110 / 80 / 95 Dark/Fire| 75 / 90 / 90 / 140 / 90 / 115 Dark/Fire) - Unique typing and passable sweeping stats makes Houndoom useful as a niche consideration do to its unique STAB-combination only being notably walled by Diancie, Tapu Fini, Greninja, and itself. It also can run a mega-abuse set with Drought as the pre-evolved form, giving it the ability to take advantage of Solar Power. However, Houndoom's stats are in a similar boat as Mega-Absol's in that it's a bit too frail for its speed tier.

    Lati@s-Mega (-ias 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 150 / 110 Psychic/Dragon| -ios 80 / 130 / 100 / 160 / 120 / 110 Psychic/Dragon) - Has a great Contrary typing and Latios has good power to back it up, while Latias takes a somewhat bulky route. The nerfing of Soul Dew has seriously reigned in their power, however. Couple with lowish speed for a sweeper and they have difficulty claiming a niche over Mewtwo-Y or Rayquaza-Mega.

    Lucario-Mega (70 / 145 / 88 / 140 / 70 / 112 Fighting/Steel) - Reasonably good mixed-offenses and a unique typing are mostly held back by an odd base 112 speed. Lucario is unpredictable, can hit hard from either side, and only has natural walls in Slowbro-Mega and Aegislash.

    Manectric-Mega (70 / 75 / 80 / 135 / 80 / 135 Electric) - Fastest STAB abuser of Galvanize and one of the fastest attackers in the meta. Competes with Xurkitree for the role, who can wall break much better but is also much slower. Manectric's lowish power, lowish bulk, and poor STAB options outside of Galvanize keep it from doing anything but speedy Galvanize sets, however.

    Marshadow ( 90 / 125 / 80 / 90 / 90 / 125 Ghost/Fighting) - Unique STAB-typing that is also trivial to Imposter-proof. However, the Pokemon is hampered by its poorly distributed BST of 600, leaving it fairly underpowered in many situations and its most redeeming qualities are its relatively high speed and signature Z-move.

    Palkia (90 / 120 / 100 / 150 / 120 / 100 Dragon/Water) - Unique typing with few weaknesses allows Palkia to act as a good Fur Coat check to many Primal Groudon and other-Fire-type attackers. It also functions as a dangerous rain abuser and can additionally run almost any set Primal Kyogre can pull off. Vulnerability to Core Enforcer holds it back, however.

    Regirock (80 / 100 / 200 / 50 / 100 / 50 Rock) - A surprisingly effective wall on sand teams or with an Assault Vest, particularly against the likes of mixed Mega-Rayquaza. Its typing, however, is easy to exploit in the current meta, making it difficult to utilize well.

    Salamence-(Mega) (95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100 Dragon/Flying | 95 / 145 / 130 / 120 / 90 / 120 Dragon/Flying) - Largely abuses mega-evolving to get an Aerilate set after using an ability like Simple. It also serves as a bulkier alternerative to Mega-Rayquaza, allowing it to use its typing defensively for Fur Coat or AV Regen sets.

    Thundurus-Therian (79 / 105 / 70 / 145 / 80 / 101 Flying/Electric) - A Galvanize user that has an immunity Ground-type moves aside of Thousand Arrows, but it picks up a weakness to Stealth Rock in return. Lowish speed for an attacker and lack of bulk make it difficult to utilize well.

    Umbreon (95 / 65 / 110 / 60 / 130 / 65 Dark) - Bulkiest Dark-type without an exploitable secondary typing nor a major weakness to Low Kick. With its poor power, it's practically forced into using Foul Play to threaten opponents directly. However, unlike Gyarados, it doesn't resist Sunsteel Strike, forcing Umbreon to give up the slot most of the time. Best served on teams that need a Fur Coat or Unaware Dark-type but can't afford doubling down on other weaknesses.

    Victini (100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 Fire/Psychic) - An excellent Contrary typing for both physical and special sets. Victini, however, is seriously held back by its even stat distribution with a merely passable 600 BST. It can also act similar to Darm-Z, trading a small amount of bulk and a large amount of special attack for a great deal of speed and physical attack.

    Volcanion (80 / 110 / 120 / 130 / 90 / 70 Fire/Water) - Unique typing gives it great defensive properties, such as 4x resisting Ice and Fire. However, said typing is also vulnerable to key threats, such as Stealth Rock, and its a bit weak on the special defensive side.



    F-Rank (open)
    F-Rank Pokemon are the Pokemon who have one very specific job to do and only succeed at doing that one job. A few can function in two roles, though the second role is almost always limited to very particular anti-Imposter needs. These are Pokemon that can work if your team absolutely needs them, but are completely outclassed in all other situations.

    The main differentiating fact is an E-rank Pokemon can pair with most teammates with a little bit of work while F-rank Pokemon only fit on very specific teams with very particular needs.

    Buzzwole (107 / 139 / 139 / 53 / 53 / 79 Bug/Fighting) - It used to be ranked but... WHAT DOES IT DO!?!?!? WHAT DID IT DO!?!?!?!?

    Charizard-X (78 / 130 / 111 / 130 / 85 / 100 Fire/Dragon) - It performs pure-physical sets utilizing its typing a little bit better than Reshiram does, enough to warrant using in those cases. However, Reshiram outclasses it in mixed, special, and defensive sets.

    Celebi (100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 Grass/Psychic) - Has a great Contrary typing and is the only notable Psychic type immune to Spore and Leech Seed without abilities, but its underwhelming stats leave much to be desired.

    Golurk (89 / 124 / 80 / 55 / 80 / 55 Ghost/Ground) - Its typing lets it act as a very reliable Shedinja counter, able to switch into Endeavor and Volt Switch and KO with a Mold Breaker Pursuit. It has little other utility, however.

    Gyarados (95 / 125 / 79 / 60 / 100 / 81 Water/Flying) - Mega-evolve abuse with an ability like Simple to set up the mega form's Mold Breaker sweep.

    Escalvalier (70 / 135 / 105 / 60 / 105 / 20 Bug/Steel) - Still the best Gyro Ball abuser in the meta, usually using Trick Room or Prankster Copycat. Aside from being a super slow pivot with STAB U-Turn, it does very little else.

    Florges (78 / 65 / 68 / 112 / 154 / 75 Fairy) - Better special bulk makes it a better AV Regen user than Xerneas if special attacks are the only thing to be concerned with. Outclassed otherwise.

    Kyogre (100 / 100 / 90 / 150 / 140 / 90 Water) - Exists purely to run Blue Orb sets similar to Groudon and Red Orb.

    Krookodile ( 95 / 117 / 80 / 65 / 70 / 92 Ground/Dark) - Acts as a good check to certain Mewtwo-Y sets running Psychic/Ghost/Dark/Volt Switch coverage and can chase them with STAB Pursuit. It offers little function beyond this.

    Landorus-Therian (89 / 145 / 90 / 105 / 80 / 91 Flying/Ground) - Its typing allows it to run a good coverage of Ground/Electric while being fully self-Imposter-immune without use of an ability. It can't do anything back to the Imposter without giving up full immunity, however, but can get away with Leech Seed. Otherwise, beyond typing, it's largely outclassed by other Ground-types.

    Lopunny-Mega (65 / 136 / 94 / 54 / 96 / 135 Normal/Fighting) - An alternative to Mewtwo-X that sacrifices power in order to be immune to Ghost-type moves, most notably Spectral Thief.

    Medicham-(Mega) (60 / 60 / 85 / 80 / 85 / 100 Psychic/Fighting | 60 / 100 / 85 / 80 / 85 / 100 Psychic/Fighting) - Another alternative to Mewtwo-X that, while normally completely outclassed, but can mega-evolve to get Pure Power to eek out an offensive edge over Mewtwo, particularly if Mewtwo-X has lost its item.

    Meloetta-Aria (100 / 77 / 77 / 128 / 128 / 90 Normal/Psychic) - An alternative to Mewtwo-Y that makes large sacrifices in order to be immune to Ghost-moves, most notably Spectral Thief, allowing it to actually function as a check or even counter to Gengar-Mega.

    Pinser-(Mega) (65 / 125 / 100 / 55 / 70 / 85 Bug| 65 / 155 / 120 / 65 / 90 / 105 Bug/Flying) - Largely abuses mega-evolving to get an Aerilate set after using an ability like Simple. Other than STAB U-Turn, it largely pales in comparison to Mega-Rayquaza.

    Raikou (90 / 85 / 75 / 115 / 100 / 115 Electric) - A somewhat bulkier alternative to Manectric-Mega at the cost of both power and speed.

    Regice (80 / 50 / 100 / 100 / 200 / 50 Ice) - A surprisingly good mixed wall with Fur Coat that's held back by its awful defensive typing. It is also one of the very few defensive Pokemon that is naturally immune to hail damage.

    Shaymin-Sky (100 / 103 / 75 / 120 / 75 / 127 Grass/Flying) - An alternative to Mega-Rayquaza that sacrifices much in exchange for immunity to Spore and Leech Seed, being faster by a couple of speed tiers, and picking up STAB Seed Flare. Conversely, it can also operate as an alternative to Mega-Sceptile with similar sacrifices. Its also infinitely more adorable than either of them.

    Suicune (100 / 75 / 115 / 90 / 115 / 85 Water) - Slightly better physical bulk means it Fur Coats better than Primal Kyogre if tanking physical attacks is the only real concern. Its outclassed in every other way, however.

    Swadloon (55 / 63 / 90 / 50 / 80 / 42 Grass/Bug) - A surprisingly effective meme check to several Primal Groudon and Mega-Camerupt sets when running Flashfire. Near dead weight otherwise.

    Swampert (100 / 110 / 90 / 85 / 90 / 60 Water/Ground) - Mega-evolve abuse using Drizzle to set-up the mega form's Swift Swim.

    Sylveon (95 / 65 / 65 / 110 / 130 / 60 Fairy) - An alternative to Florges that trades power, speed, and an insignificant amount of special bulk in exchange for more physical bulk, via higher HP. Higher HP can also be used for meme-ish Mirror Coat sets better.

    Terrakion ( 91 / 129 / 90 / 72 / 90 / 108 Rock/Fighting) - An interesting Sand Rush user with its STAB combination and all the benefits it gets from its typing and ability in the sand. However, its power is a little on the low side and it is lacking in speed, so it doesn't do much outside of this role.

    Togekiss ( 85 / 50 / 95 / 120 / 115 / 80 Flying/Fairy) - Flashfire makes it a surprisingly decent check to a number of Contrary checks. But, other than Impsoter-proof Garchomps lacking Thousand Arrows, it serves little purpose.

    Weavile (70 / 120 / 65 / 45 / 85 / 125 Dark/Ice) - Niche Mega-Rayquaza check with its Ice-STAB and higher speed when using Dazzling to avoid being KOed by the priority-abusing Mega-Ray sets. Has little use beyond this.

    Arcanine (150 / 175 / 145 / 140 / 135 / 155 Fire) - The best Pokemon in the meta, period. It is only not used due to an unspoken code of honor not to use such an overpowered Pokemon.
  20. jrm115

    jrm115

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    204
    I would just like to add that aegiblade's middling-at-best speed tier makes it a perfectly almost not unviable user of speed boost as a self improof sweeper.
  21. IronedSandwich

    IronedSandwich

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    I've tried something like this. thanks to U-turn, stealth rock and faster attackers (which are plentiful) in practise you'll rarely be able to keep up 150BP Water Spout for too long.
  22. pooyou123456789q

    pooyou123456789q

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Newer player who just started this playing this metagame checking in. I whipped up a pretty shitty HO team that I used to climb to a pretty shitty rank. The idea of the team is to set up with deo and sweep with 1 of 4 imp-proof sweepers; imp in the back just in case I fuck up. Less def on mew2 ensures +6 thief kos imp. I struggle a lot with spore spam and a bit with bpass. Any tips would be appreciated, thanks.
  23. jrm115

    jrm115

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    204
    You didn't link a team.
    lordmagecar likes this.
  24. Rumors

    Rumors

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,126

    Not... entirely sure what you're saying here? It's notable that its a good Speed Booster? A bad one?

    Either way though, being a Ghost-type makes it easy to self-Imposterproof either way and Aegiblade likely has a number of abilities it can successfully run (Normalize, Mold Breaker, Prankster, Adaptability, Tough Claws, and Tinted Lens all come to mind), so drawing attention to all the specific abilities would take too long.
  25. jrm115

    jrm115

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    204
    It was a joke, speed boost aegiblade was a meme set last gen w/ tail glow sludge wave ghost judg. It beat a handful of players but it's not a good set.

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