Lower Tiers ADV Doubles - Quick Claw BANNED

[Xrn]

writing this really quickly so maybe I'll make it pretty and better later

Tier 1: Latias is by far #1 and Metagross is by far #2, dropping either is pretty much always throwing. Gengar is also pretty clearly #3 but imo dropping it is slightly less consequential.
Tier 2: broken normals & electrics, stacking them is fine and they're consistent
Tier 3: strong flavor picks that are still pretty hard to go wrong with but can't just be thrown on a team. all worth respecting in the builder
Tier 4: just require more help than the mons above, can be scary under the right circumstances but easy for them to flop
Tier 5: mostly just mons I've seen or played around with that aren't totally awful, would rarely seriously consider them

the nature of the tier is still very fun to me but speed ties are lame and Latias speed ties in particular generate a really high number of coin flips in your control and outside of your control, would've liked to see it banned but looking forward to seeing how you can alleviate that in DOU Derby if I choose to play

ty to anyone who gave the tier a shot in ALTPL/ADVPL, cool that people played it without money on the line

 

[BIG WILL]

I had fun playing ADV DOU in ADVPL! Though I didn't get a chance to play in Finals, I still finished 3-1 in my games played, here are some takeaways:

- Raikou is so fucking broken holy shit I hate feeling insecure into it
- Steelix is probably my favorite change of pace mon in the tier, this guy swings a lot of MUs (it's at its best when its acting as a 2nd metagross IMO, metaless lix is really bad from my tests)
- I think latias itself is fine, but the fact that it/bull/gar are all 350 is what's cringe about it.
- This tier would really like Bo3, speed ties are not fun in Bo1 and I definitely wouldn't have gone 3-1 without Bo1 helping me LOL

Overall, it was a great experience (despite initially not wanting to play it) and I'm excited to play more soon! Here's a small team dump for those interested: https://pokepast.es/303f3ede70ab1c56

Thanks to Xrn for being the greatest support imaginable and SuperEpicAmpharos, zee, and Mako (also thanks for telling my metas always need to be faster when I posted my teams mako LOL) for test games. Onto the next one!

 

[BIG WILL]

Also, here's my VR. Couple notes -
- Raikou is borderline tier 1
- Sceptile/Steelix/Arcanine are really Those Guys. Swampert is also nice, but similar issues to lix (can only fit on specific teams.) Very good complex check to many threats though, not much can compress ttar + tbolt immune.
- Alakazam/Marowak should both be used more

 

[PumpedAaron]

Its awfully sad how dead this format is. Practically nobody plays it daily.

Anyway, I'm testing out some weird-ass theme team. Tell me what you think.

Emerald (pokepast.es)

I tend to get bored easy, so this team is more about having fun than winning matches. Its based a little off of Emerald's teams that he uses in the Pokemon special manga. I enjoy the combination of a fire type with Starmie. Helps cover some of Starmie's type weaknesses. Rapidash is cool and pretty, but you can use Arcanine too here, for intimidate support and stuff. Dusclops is great utility and immune to Explosion so that's a plus. Not sure yet what to do with Sceptile.

btw zee you did a fine job in the PLs! I'd like to offer some commentary later on =-).

First of all, the team you used is very strong! I haven't seen Tyranitar much in this format, but it looks like it can do some pretty powerful stuff.

Tyranitar has great type synergy with Latias and Gengar, as well as good physical stats to compliment their special stats. I also love your addition of Snorlax. Great HP and defense, selfdestruct. Pardon the pun, but you can't sleep on it. Anyway, I have some things to take care of, but I'll finish this post soon. As an aside, King's Rockslide might be a pretty damn good strat with Aero. Ugh!

I'm gonna test out some support mons for awhile. See how we do. Will post all vods.

Okay, here's a vod against Driver Zee! Replays - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

Protect and Explosion helping me win games. And with Machamp too. Togetic also helped. Happy!

 

[PandaDoux]

Ban Ninjask (or Baton Pass or Follow Me)
I used Ninjask + Jynx + Togetic every round and got 100% WR with it, i ended up being in semis with literally the same team brought g1 every round and still won every time because Metagross +2 Atk +2 Speed is completely broken and it's hard to deny it from being baton passed by Ninjask except with some rare tech like multiple Intimidate / Zapdos Sub / Lead Zapdos or Raikou + Ttar and double focus on the incoming Togetic before it comes on the field (Follow me still works if Togetic gets killed, so getting a BPass is completely free even tho Togetic gets OHKO by one of the 2)

i'm too lazy to go find my replays with the team but in every single game the first 4 turns (max) i setup Ninjask and do everything to make the BPass safe and once i have BPassed Metagross just sweep the entire team by itself, i don't think banning Metagross would help anything as you could probably do the same tech with some other powerful Attacker such as Tauros / Tyranitar / Salamence maybe, any powerful physical attacker with EQ would do a great job

I don't think a good Baton Pass team is possible with any other Pokemon than Ninjask tho, this is why i think Ninjask should be banned and not BPass, but if anyone proves that BPass is still stupid with another Pokemon then just ban BPass (i mean i don't care anyway it's not like Baton Pass is a healthy mecanic that we need in the tier to be enjoyable, but Ninjask being in the banlist with legendaries would be pretty funny)

Ninjask Jynx Togetic having the best WR of the tournament with at least 5 games, new meta

 

[Lhions]

Ban Lum Berry

When the meta was less developed and few people were actually abusing it, it was ok, but now that everyone is starting to use 5 or 6 lum berry per team , is just ridiculous and unhealthy as fuck

This is not a situation like gsc ou or singles adv with 12 lefties per game, because lefties doesnt change the way the game is played or nulifies any mechanic meanwhile the lum berry spam is making statues moves worthless while destroying a lot of the counterplay the tiers allows simplifying a lot the teambuilder process (you just put 6 lums and only protects + damage moves in nearly all the mons).


PD: i would wait in the ninjask case, first of all , the lum berry spam helps it, and second, is not just that is good per se (even tho is possible that it is ), but that it is perfect vs the actual meta and how people build, so i would like to wait a little to see if a change in building helps vs that (not a big change, but using more stuff like fake out, encore, substitute ,etc ) (sub is actually a op move that should be use more in a boom meta btw )

 

[PandaDoux]

Ban Lum Berry

When the meta was less developed and few people were actually abusing it, it was ok, but now that everyone is starting to use 5 or 6 lum berry per team , is just ridiculous and unhealthy as fuck

This is not a situation like gsc ou or singles adv with 12 lefties per game, because lefties doesnt change the way the game is played or nulifies any mechanic meanwhile the lum berry spam is making statues moves worthless while destroying a lot of the counterplay the tiers allows simplifying a lot the teambuilder process (you just put 6 lums and only protects + damage moves in nearly all the mons).

I don't think Lum Berry is unhealthy, preventing hax to happen is actually very healthy, i've been frozen by Ice Punch/Beam so many time but hopefully i got my Lum to cure it because i don't need any other item on most of my pokemons, also preventing TWave from being spam and the tier to become yellow magic land, i think lum is very healthy, the other items are just not that helpful most of the time.
It being spammed actually allows you to build something out of the box with stuff like salac berry because nobody is risking to play twave because of lum berry

I completely understand your point and why you want it gone, but i don't think it's unhealthy in this case

 

[zee]

agree with PD, overall i think lum is one of the few factors working against hax in this tier. restricting or outright banning lum (assuming cheri berry as well by extension) probably leads to mons like gross/lax/tar running quick claw way more often which I really do not want to encourage.

I have thought for a while now that two things will go a long way towards improving the health of adv, which is a tier that i think is in dire need of saving.

1) Ban Latias. I still cannot believe we did not ban this during the first suspect test and the tier is so much worse off for it. It compresses so many support options that all other utility Pokemon are effectively outclassed, save the occasional redirection users. Latias is one of the best checks to Latias in the tier, and the congestion in the base 110 speed tier means that even if you save your latias for the back while knocking out your opponent's lead latias, you're very possibly still having to play ties against tauros and/or gengar.

2) Ban Explosion and Self-Destruct. I think the only thing these moves add to the tier is more variance. I hope that people don't confuse the ADV spread mechanics with some sort of notion that Boom is a core mechanic of ADV and needs to be preserved. The uncertainty around boom, with its counterplay being limited to effectively click protect, switch in gengar, or let your gross/tar take 90 is just not healthy.

If you want to change ADV being a tier where 80% of mons run Protect + 3 Attacks, banning boom is a great place to start. Banning Latias goes the extra step in allowing more utility mons to see usage as well. I encourage the adv dou playerbase to think about the points I'm trying to make here and keep the discussion going on how to improve this tier's health. There's a lot of mechanics and strategies that are so unique to this gen, it's such a waste to keep it in the speed tie variance fest that it currently is.

As for ninjask bp I can take it or leave it, it's never going to be actually adding value to the tier so i really wouldn't mind a ban if more interest is shown.

 

[zee]

The ADV council has released a second survey on tiering the metagame and we would all greatly appreciate your responses. The feedback collected from this survey will give us all a great idea of how to tier the metagame going into 2024.

Tagging ADV DOU Open top 8 & Doubles oldgens invitationals participants, but all responses are welcome.

tags

temp
Banbadoro
Hugo
Bless
Lhions
PandaDoux
BIG WILL
LBN
Mishimono
Memoric
papiloco
Akaru Kokuyo
Ann
Farfromani
qsns
Fran
DaAwesomeDude1
JRL
Grandmas Cookin
SingleThunder
Actuarily
Croven
zee

​

LINK TO THE SURVEY HERE!!!​

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

did i ever tell u guys i like adv doubles

derby megapost

w1 vs pandadoux


w2 vs zoe


w3 vs SEA


w4 vs xrn


w5 vs BIG WILL

g2


tb vs zee


semis vs SEA

(team was supposed to have hp grass zapdos)

finals vs pandadoux

oldgens invitational

r1 vs singlethunder


top 8 vs akaru


semis vs farfromani


finals vs qsns

bonus pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/e1487d9b31533995

 

[zee]

Survey results!

Overall, opinion on Boom is pretty even split, with 9 responses for not opposing tiering action, 8 responses for no action, and 7 responses for action.

The response on Latias is far more direct: over half of the responses are calling for a ban/suspect, with nearly another quarter of respondents not opposing tiering action.

The Baton Pass response is again pretty mixed, with the exception of no one focusing on Ninjask over Baton Pass in general. Still, less than half of the respondents are calling for action, but a notable portion of respondents were also fairly indifferent.

It is quite obvious that the player base is not interested in trying out item clause.

Out of the free response answers, Thunder Wave was listed three times, which was the only thing we saw more than once. We'd like to hear more thoughts about Thunder Wave in this thread going forward, as the council feels that Lum Berry is pretty sufficient counterplay at present.

So you may be wondering what these survey results mean for the future of the tier. The ADV Council has agreed to run a vote on Latias, Baton Pass, and Explosion/Self-Destruct. With Baton Pass and Boom only receiving 1/3 of the votes for no action and Latias at 1/4, it makes sense to at least let the community vote on these metagame factors. There will be no policy review thread this time, instead you are welcome to use this thread to voice your thoughts on the upcoming vote. The voting pool will consist of top finishers from post Deoxys-D ADV Doubles tours, as well as potential suspect tournaments. An update will be posted in this thread when the specifics are figured out.

 

[zee]

Latias has been banned via the vote in policy review

Tagging Kris Marty to implement please and thank you!

Keep in mind: this means Latias will not be legal for the ADV Swiss Tour! Resources will be updated accordingly throughout the weekend.

 

[latios777]

Ban Lum Berry

Thunder wave is a broken move with big reward and low risk if Lum berry is baned. Also sleep is still op/broken even with sleep clause.
The 2 status give free turns and are hax reliant (+ the rare freeze) so baning something that helps against it...just no.
In fact, sleep and paralysis should be suspected/baned in most tiers if people want a competitive game.

 

[CD56]

I think that explosion should be looked at in more detail. It's true that there are many mindgames involving explosion, but with the unique quirk in gen 3 of pokemon switching in the same turn another one faints, explosion can be beyond devastating because you can put yourself in situations where explosion has extremely low risk and very high reward very easily. It's a unique concept in gen 3 but from a competitive standpoint I don't believe it is truly healthy for that type of experience.

 

[For 4LOM]

Had fun playing in ADV Swiss tour time felt like dumping some teams I used:

some teams

Lead Registeel


Starmie Gyarawak


SwampTar


CuneWakZard

also my VR

 

[zee]

if you're looking for players to draft for ADV DOU in ADVPL, hopefully this post will be helpful

to start, here are the results of last year's ADVPL players

the next major ADV tour after this was the Doubles OU forum team tour Doubles Derby

Doubles Derby ADV players/records

Grandmas Cookin 8-0
PandaDoux 4-3
SEA 2-2
BIG WILL 2-3
Xrn 1-3
zoe 1-4
Memoric 0-1
Smudge 0-1
zee 0-1

Three individual tours have also taken place for ADV DOU, the ADV forum's ADV DOU Open (2023), The DOU forum's ADV Cup (2023) the DOU's Oldgen Circuit ADV Swiss tournament (2024). These are the top 8 players from the ADV DOU Open and ADV DOU Swiss, as well as the top 6 from ADV Cup. All these players have won at least 3 straight games of ADV DOU to secure their spot.

ADV DOU Open Top 8

1. Banbadoro
2. Hugo
4. PandaDoux
4. BIG WILL
8. temp
8. Bless
8. Lhions
8. LBN

ADV DOU Swiss Top 8

1. Genesis77
2. For 4LOM
4. Lhions
4. MADARAAAA
8. Amaranth
8. AIRedzone
8. Staraptor
8. Mishimono

ADV Cup Top 6

1. Lhions
3. LBN
3. BIG WILL
6. Genesis77
6. Grandmas Cookin
6. qsns

My personal recommendations:

Grandmas Cookin: With Lhions managing, I would say Gma goes to be the best player actually in the draft. The 8-0 Derby run was followed immediately with making it to the semifinals of ADV Cup, just such a dominant run in the tier that has not been replicated. Very passionate and active, will be sure to put in lots of effort. Probably one of the only players I'd really greenlight drafting without support.

Genesis77 & For 4LOM: The two finalists from ADV Swiss, both of these players have demonstrated great knowledge of the new metagame with the Latias ban. Neither has gotten the chance to show off their stuff in a team tour and I imagine they would be eager to do so, while also holding their own against experienced team tour players.

Eragon: ADV DOU is a very centralized metagame, making it very easy for creative teambuilders to find ways to exploit certain player's habits. That is exactly why I'd expect Eragon to be a particularly valuable player to pick up in the draft. He isn't an ADV mainstay but he's involved enough with the tier to start and be okay.

 

[zee]

Also, with the conclusion of the ADV DOU Swiss tournament, the VR has been updated, thanks to the help of BIG WILL Grandmas Cookin Lhions SEA and myself.

Rises:
2 -> 1
2 -> 1

3 -> 2

UR -> 3
4 -> 3
4 -> 3

UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4
UR -> 4

Drops:
1 -> 2

3 -> 4
3 -> 4

 

[Lhions]

i would like to share some thoughts in mons i ranked different than the others so we may have some discourse about the meta :

: Tier 2 ---> Still the third best mon, but meanwhile i always see zapdos and snorlax doing his stuff like 99% of the time (and that 1% is player fault), is not the case with gross which is more abusable.

: Tier 2 ---> As someone that played nearly all his latias with different support variances, celebi is just latias at home, pretty good vs rain and really good glue .

: tier 4 --> the meta is jut pretty bad for him, good mon but nearly everything that is good, is good vs him .

: tier 4 ---> In this meta, suicune is better most of the times.

 

[CD56]

Here are some of my thoughts on this new VR
Tier 1- This pokemon is still amazing, and has irreplaceable utility. Been using the support set more frequently and forgoing explosion. high speed tier and ghost typing allow it to always move without being disrupted. Insane movepool that no other pokemon can replicate fully. For this reason I still believe Gengar is a top pokemon.
- I still think this is definitely the best pokemon in the metagame, but it is not an auto include like before. It gets heavily pressured by neutral hits, has an unimpressive speed tier, and is weak to Earthquake and the many fire type moves in Doubles. It is also pretty poor into zapdos (unless running HP Rock which I’ve been using more lately) and sun teams.
Tier 2- This pokemon is amazing. Definitely better than sceptile and the best grass type in the format. Strong Psychic for gengar, Natural Cure so it doesnt need lum berry and can run something like Twisted Spoon/Miracle Seed/Salac Berry. Has a really good support movepool for doubles, great on rain and against rain teams. This one is gonna go to the moon.
Tier 4 - This mon is very overlooked because metagross exists, but it has its own unique advantages. It has a much stronger psychic for gengar and fighting types, it has access to icy wind and helping hand, so it can run a supportive set, and it has great special bulk making it less vulnerable to zapdos than metagross is, and psychic hits back hard too. I firmly believe this pokemon is good enough to be on the ranking.
Tier 4 - It’s criminal that this pokemon is not ranked at all. It’s great into both metagross and gengar, so it makes for an amazing lead pokemon, has access to willowisp to burn physical threats, particularly choice banded ones, and its quite good into other fire types thanks to Flash Fire. I think this one is a no brainer.
Potential to be ranked eventually, explosion is broken, has STAB Earthquake, and is immune to said earthquake, and has a strong shadow ball for starmie/gengar/celebi. Actually a pretty decent sleeper pick. But I don’t mind this one not being ranked yet.

 

[zee]

The ADV DOU council has unanimously voted to ban Quick Claw from the tier. Quick Claw comes at a significantly reduced opportunity cost in ADV due to the relative weakness of other item choices and all it takes is one activation to swing games in its favor. Quick Claw has seen a surge in usage in tournaments like ADVPL, so we do believe it has a significant enough uncompetitive impact on the metagame to be banned.

There have also been some discussions on Explosion & Self-Destruct, but at the moment Quick Claw is the more pressing matter.

 

[Xrn]

post advpl vr again

tier is without a doubt in a better place than it was with latias, the amount luck seems to impact games still turns me off from wanting to play it in the future but it can definitely be fun and im happy with it's developments. glad to see derby enforcing bo3 for it, maybe advpl can learn from that.. (it won't)
latias and quick claw bans are very good, boom should be voted on after derby probably. im neutral leaning dnb on it but if people think it's unhealthy and want to try the tier without it then by all means they should.
not on council anymore so my vr doesn't really hold any weight but maybe I can change some opinions yk. most importantly please split current t4 into t4 and t5, or if you don't want to add another tier then delete half of it

explanations

>>Tier 1<<
- still the most warping pkmn in the tier. fantastic stats and typing make it extremely difficult to ohko, with bulky spreads even making it hard to kill with even a double up. incorrectly guessing when meta will protect or boom can lose the game instantly
- definitely creeping up on metagross imo, stab tbolt is as powerful as always and similarly to meta it has fantastic typing/stats making it an easy inclusion on most teams. just enough tools to keep you guessing asw. hp grass + dp gives you perfect coverage, twave is amazing vs people who drop lum, sub is scary, agil is cool, i still like salac bp
- toolbox pkmn. very useful immunities to eq and normal with barely good enough stats to be bulky if you want. can be customized to do whatever your team needs whether it be an all out attacker, bulky support, or something in-between. will rarely dominate a game but v splashable
- fat as hell, excellent at trading damage. not too much to say about it you more or less know what it'll do every game but that doesn't make it any easier to play around

>>Tier 2<<
- probably the first and potentially most controversial ranking? but imo aero is #5. it's taken the spot as fastest viable pkmn being an excellent gatekeeper of big threats like dd tar and cm kou. it's definitely frail but can take one neutral hit which is usually all you need, sometimes it can be a bit weak and locking into a move is punishable but the value it's speed brings to a team in a metagame as fastpaced as this is enough to outweigh its shortcomings for me
- dd is very scary! give it a turn or two and you might just lose! held back a bit by poor typing and low speed but it's not hard for your second slot to create an opportunity for ttar whether it be through pressuring the other side or support like screens or fake out. sand stream is also an excellent ability. ive tried to make mixtar work it can do things but it's p bad
- lower on this guy than I was in latias meta, feel like he lost a really good natural partner. still very powerful though with a good speed stat and intim utility, will always have a place in the upper ranks

>>Tier 3<<
- pensive emoji. the rise of aero is unkind to raikou, its major eq weakness is very noticeable these days. still good speed/power/coverage with potential to run over a team but much harder to sweep with than before. I still find it to be the most threatening mon in t3 under the right conditions
- great check to phys guys like meta/tar/aero, tbolt immune water is great despite it being easier for zap to use grass without latias. 3a tect is still great and counter is a cool pick as well. I don't use pert as much as I used to but still good, demands plenty of respect
- not the strongest guy around but quite difficult to take down if you cant pelt it with thunderbolts. can snowball offensively with calm mind or serve as a valuable defensive piece depending on what the game demands
- goodbye latias, hello celebi! giga psy fire is excellent coverage leaving one slot open for your choice of a support move, or you can lean into the support angle and drop coverage if you really want to. good check to the most prominent special attackers
- fast pkmn that kills gengar and hydro pump is powerful. I only like it in the lead slot but I like it quite a bit there despite hydro inconsistencies. has a lot of options for it's last 2 slots, have experimented with anything from sub tect to boltbeam to dual screens. dual screens is my favorite set on it rn, feels very strong on teams that lean into HO
- has intimidate and kind of checks metagross with overheat, helping hand is sick. hp grass/fighting gives it non zero presence. never been my favorite mon but definitely worth using, being a fire that isn't weak to tbolt is great for challenging lead metagross
- stab tbolt is very spammable + ground is very spammable = lightning rod is marowak is pretty decent. good partner for stuff like cune and gyara and whatever else dislikes fighting electrics. can be underwhelming at times because it's stats are dogshit but if you fully bulk it out it's good enough. stop using sd with speed LMAO just be fat and maybe a little strong as a treat and go 3a tect or 2a tect psong

>>Tier 4<<
- overrated imo! picking between hidden powers is annoying and overreliant on marowak goobage to setup. intimidate is good as always but it just doesn't feel bulky or powerful enough to me to make up for requiring marowak if you want consistent setup. still very capable of sweeping when you do get it going so it ranks right outside of t3 for me
- demon set is unfortunately proven to be capable of winning but is far too inconsistent to be any higher. mandates gengar removal and needs to dodge a million crits while not being an immediate threat. interested in nondenom sets
- rain is ok, kingdra is the strongest swift swimmer. typing is very good making it annoying to take down, anglerfish leaned into that strength with an interesting lead set during advpl that I enjoyed
- fake out and grass stab is cool, similarly good typing to kingdra but doesn't do as much damage
- slightly biased placement but he's strong and fun. not ohkod by much so can be used to just trade damage with cb or try to get cooking with sd. I like it with screens
- shortlived time as the tiers most used grass type with the ban of latias and rise of celebi. speed stat still gives it a niche as tied for fastest real pkmn behind aero, grass coverage is v valuable for some teams and so is outspeeding +1 ddtar
- cool lead, can live basically anything and rock/eq/boom/superpower is sick coverage
- intim good, mixmence can go super bulky and be decent at trading damage with it's coverage options but zap and gar prevent it from being a top threat. dd is also usable but there's no ability to redirect gengar ice punch and has similar flaws to dd gyara
- strong special guy who ohkos metagross. always held back by the existence of zapdos and generally bad top tier matchups outside of meta, though gars dropping tbolt is nice for it. appreciates marowak
- can sit around and just win if you eliminate strong phys attackers and dodge boom. not my cup of tea but similarly to registeel has been proven to be capable of winning
- solar beam is worse than hydro pump but chloro pkmn have explosion so sun is viable
- fake out and explosion

>>Tier 5<<
- fastest mon alive, tbolt good, boom good. difficult to justify but fun pick for HO teams to check aero. performed well in advpl :3
- fast with plenty of options but rarely the first choice for anything. kind of like a dry starmie which has its upsides like tbolt neutrality but it's just pretty mediocre
- calm mind cheeser, can work with skill swap gar. maybe some non cm sets are viable but haven't tried them myself
- worthless piece of shit offensively but can click rain dance or sunny day for full weather teams
- good support toolkit for enabling DDers
- fake out and strong normal stab with the usual coverage that normal types have, very usable but middling stats hold it back
- stronger than kang but slower and frailer
- can defeat normal types and ddtar, has fake out and stuff. kinda just shit tho stats aren't good enough and cross chop is unreliable
- interesting follow me user
- meme pick that doesn't really work but arena trap eq is funny nonetheless and technically can create some fucked up situations
- steelix phase is over, kinda good at taking on electrics and it's a normal resist that kinda munches eq but it's just so fucking weak and the spdef is so bad
- ice beam is kind of good? decent stats and has explosion but never fails to disappoint, very rarely if ever is it worth running regice as a special check instead of snorlax

 

[Lhions]

In my opinion (ignoring adv mechanics) the most scenarios when luck is forced and influence the game is still in 350 speed ties (tho less than before because we have a mon less in that speed tier) and gengar gross lead scenarios because all the posible options that both mons can have in that lead (tho you can just go fat with the evs to have more leverage and relie less in guessing the sets ), dunno how we can change that, because the "obvious" way of banning gengar i think that is gonna make more harm than good.

Appart from that , the tier seem healthy and fun for me, after all you are playing adv for better or worse (better) and that means having to deal with og crits, hyper defining turns and similar stuff. Don think that trying to ban the way into a more vanilla meta without real identity and slower is gonna make the tier better, you just live or die for adv mechanics and live with it